Was Penn State elite this year?

[Gitzit]

PSU was so close to beating teams in the playoffs. A play here or there and they would be in the championship game against an "elite team". But that "elite" team lost to Oregon and Michigan, so what qualifies as elite. I guess you have to beat OSU, but Michigan did and they are not elite this year.
I'm thinking they were playing with all the elite teams this year, just have to do it every year and beat OSU and we might be happy lol.

 

[NittanyIllinois]

Absolutely not.

If you want to be elite, you have to beat top-tier teams.

Ohio State just beat their fourth top-5 team this year. That's more than Penn State has beaten this century. Notre Dame has beaten two top-5 teams -- more than Franklin's entire tenure. Those teams can claim elite status. We can't.

Our marquee wins were Boise, SMU, and Illinois. If that's gonna be your pinnacle, you better look like a juggernaut in your other games. The USC, Minnesota, and Bowling Green games (to say nothing of the losses) suggest that we were hardly a juggernaut.

A very good season, but a deceptively inflated record and final poll standing (we'll finish #4) based on a fairly light schedule.

 

[bison13]

Depends on your definition of elite, but if part of that definition includes finishing ahead of Alabama, George, Michigan, and maybe Oregon than yes.

 

[lazydave841]

Definition of elite varies anymore. Right now, you have 1 who is borderline elite (OSU) and 1 who is very good, but flukey (ND).

If ND upsets OSU, they might be in the conversation, but you can't call them elite and not mention us in the same breathe. We forced a punt and proceeded to throw an INT 2 plays later. They didn't do anything elite there. Allar just chucked a terrible pass.

An elite ND would have drove the field before the forced punt and scored without the gift. Just my opinion. If ND is elite, we're right there behind them. I don't think they are. We weren't this year.

 

[NittanyIllinois]

Definition of elite varies anymore. Right now, you have 1 who is borderline elite (OSU) and 1 who is very good, but flukey (ND).

If ND upsets OSU, they might be in the conversation, but you can't call them elite and not mention us in the same breathe. We forced a punt and proceeded to throw an INT 2 plays later. They didn't do anything elite there. Allar just chucked a terrible pass.

An elite ND would have drove the field before the forced punt and scored without the gift. Just my opinion. If ND is elite, we're right there behind them. I don't think they are. We weren't this year.

Ohio State has now beaten Penn State, Indiana, Tennessee, Oregon, and Texas. I'd say they're elite.

Being elite is more than just showing up in one game or coming close against great teams. It's about being consistently top-tier. Sure, we had close losses against some elite teams. But they're losses.

The age old mantra of "to be the best you have to beat the best" applies here. We haven't beaten anybody even sniffing eliteness. So it's hard to put us in that conversation.

 

[lazydave841]

Ohio State has now beaten Penn State, Indiana, Tennessee, Oregon, and Texas. I'd say they're elite.

Being elite is more than just showing up in one game or coming close against great teams. It's about being consistently top-tier. Sure, we had close losses against some elite teams. But they're losses.

The age old mantra of "to be the best you have to beat the best" applies here. We haven't beaten anybody even sniffing eliteness. So it's hard to put us in that conversation.

I'm completely with you on OSU, but they have to close it out vs ND to claim it.

I don't believe that every season produces an elite level team necessarily. Somebody has to be the best, but elite, to me, means you could match them up with the past 10 years of Champs favorably.

For example, if ND beats OSU in 9 days, there is no elite team this year. Just 2 really good teams. Again, I know that's my opinion and many can differ. We should have been in overtime with ND and we took OSU down to the 5 minute mark with an opportunity to tie. We're right there behind them. Our coach just hasn't beaten a team like this in 8 going on 9 years now.

 

[87 Penn St8]

Three one score losses to teams that often are considered to be Elite is knocking on the door- but not Elite in my opinion.

Those 3 teams have also traditionally recruited more Elite talent than us. We are very, very good, but competitive efforts without wins against those who you want to be in your peer group isn't enough to cut it.

Call it The Franklin Dilemma....tantalizingly close. But his edict that night after another heartbreaking loss to OSU is not fulfilled by this season.

 

[Crusher1950]

When you win everything your elite, so forget that

 

[creamery]

I would say No, but certainly a very good team this year. Elite to me would be the ‘94 Lions team - just superior to everyone else. But you rarely get teams like that where every position is great. We had deficiencies at WR that hurt us at times. I also thought the playing field was a little more level this year with the competition and that helped - that just happens some years.

 

[LandoComando]

Elite teams don't to 0-3 against the top 5 all at home or on neutral sites. Close but not elite. JF has to take the next step

 

[SLion]

Elite is stealing a TD from WRs hands and instead getting INT. Elite is causing a fumble and returning 90 yards when balls are against the wall. Alabama and OSU have the secret sauce for elite over last 20 years. We do not.

 

[PSUCYCLING]

Three one score losses to teams that often are considered to be Elite is knocking on the door- but not Elite in my opinion.

Those 3 teams have also traditionally recruited more Elite talent than us. We are very, very good, but competitive efforts without wins against those who you want to be in your peer group isn't enough to cut it.

Call it The Franklin Dilemma....tantalizingly close. But his edict that night after another heartbreaking loss to OSU is not fulfilled by this season.

Good take. We’re closer than the majority of our fans either realize or care to admit - other than 1994, (even then our best wins had 4 losses that year), our BIG history with our 1 or 2 loss teams where characterized by either an inexplicable loss to a team with a lot less talent or bad record (1993, 1996, 2005, 2008, 2016, 2017, 2019) or, a blowout loss to a top 2 BIG team that year (1993, 1996, 2009, 2019, 2022) . Oftentimes, BOTH! Then, you have #1 PSU teams in 1997 and 1999 with embarrassing losses and collapses.

From 2021-2023, Michigan was on their greatest 3 year run ever, and OSU were as strong as they’ve always been.

Historical Penn State would have meant a blowout loss to either OSU or Michigan in 2023, and at least a loss to either USC or Minnesota in 2024 and a blowout loss to OSU.

That hasn’t happened. Instead of two steps behind the top teams, we’re a half a step. We’re getting closer. Franklin has built a strong program. The minimum expectation now is a playoff game every year.

 

[blair10]

Elite teams don't to 0-3 against the top 5 all at home or on neutral sites. Close but not elite. JF has to take the next step

Exactly. You can’t go 0-3 against teams with a pulse and be considered elite.

Also, what elite team has had their WRs go an entire game with zero receptions.

Penn State has a good team but they are nowhere near being elite.

If they start beating big boy programs, then we can revisit the elite question. For now, forget about it.

 

[LMTLION]

We are definitively a top 10 program in college football. Whether you want to call that elite or not is inconsequential. Franklin has us at guaranteed double digit wins every year. The ND game will sit with me for decades (literally, I’m a very poor loser!), but I do see that Franklin made a lot of progress this year, starting with the OL. This is our best OL since literally the 1990s. Hopefully next year we take another step. When we were last undefeated in 1994 we had an elite QB paired with a strong line and lots of playmakers. Hopefully that all comes together next season .

 

[LMTLION]

Exactly. You can’t go 0-3 against teams with a pulse and be considered elite.

Also, what elite team has had their WRs go an entire game with zero receptions.

Penn State has a good team but they are nowhere near being elite.

If they start beating big boy programs, then we can revisit the elite question. For now, forget about it.

We’re a lot closer than you think. Stating nowhere near being elite is being disingenuous.

 

[LandoComando]

We’re a lot closer than you think. Stating nowhere near being elite is being disingenuous.

To be "elite" as a program in this era is really tough
Michigan won a title but that's not an elite program. Is Alabama without Saban an elite program?
Right now, it's probably only Ohio State and UGa. And they both can't beat one team (Michigan and Bama)

 

[IANit]

Absolutely not.

If you want to be elite, you have to beat top-tier teams.

Ohio State just beat their fourth top-5 team this year. That's more than Penn State has beaten this century. Notre Dame has beaten two top-5 teams -- more than Franklin's entire tenure. Those teams can claim elite status. We can't.

Our marquee wins were Boise, SMU, and Illinois. If that's gonna be your pinnacle, you better look like a juggernaut in your other games. The USC, Minnesota, and Bowling Green games (to say nothing of the losses) suggest that we were hardly a juggernaut.

A very good season, but a deceptively inflated record and final poll standing (we'll finish #4) based on a fairly light schedule.

Why number 4? We will have lost to #1, #2, and 13-1 playoff entrant and top-seed Oregon. We lost no game by more than 8 points. Texas also lost 3 games including a a 14-point loss and a 15-point loss at home to a team that lost to probable #2 by 13 points. I'd argue #3 since the final standings should be based on playoff results and we're 3rd best of the final 4 teams in the semis, Unless Ohio State beats ND 59-0 or something similar. If ND improbably beats Ohio State then we look even better.

From the second half of the Oregon game until Allar threw the game away when we were headed to overtime we were playing about as well as anyone but Ohio State. We had an elite running game. the best tight end in the country, and elite or near-elite defense with the top edge rusher in the country. Even though he made the mistake, Allar is probably the most physically gifted QB in the playoff, but we were unable to take full advantage of his skills. We were a wide receiver or two away from probably winning it all.

I'm OK with #1 Ohio State, #2 ND, #3 Oregon, #4 Penn State and #5 Texas, I guess.

We're about as good as anyone in the country. We weren't blown off the field by anyone despite facing the top 2 teams and probable #3 team. In this day with all the NIL money out there that is about as close to elite as it gets. I would rather be us than over 99 percent of the teams in the country. I enjoyed watching this team. I'm sad that we lost a winnable game at the end, but it was still a great season.

Unless Ohio State and Oregon see unexpected changes of fortune we are likely to consistently be battling for #3 in the conference with Michigan and probably USC, and that might be Top 5 in the whole country most years.

 

[AvgUser]

Absolutely not.

If you want to be elite, you have to beat top-tier teams.

Ohio State just beat their fourth top-5 team this year. That's more than Penn State has beaten this century. Notre Dame has beaten two top-5 teams -- more than Franklin's entire tenure. Those teams can claim elite status. We can't.

Our marquee wins were Boise, SMU, and Illinois. If that's gonna be your pinnacle, you better look like a juggernaut in your other games. The USC, Minnesota, and Bowling Green games (to say nothing of the losses) suggest that we were hardly a juggernaut.

A very good season, but a deceptively inflated record and final poll standing (we'll finish #4) based on a fairly light schedule.

Well stated. I agree. Good or very good. Far from elite

 

[rrdd2021]

PSU was so close to beating teams in the playoffs. A play here or there and they would be in the championship game against an "elite team". But that "elite" team lost to Oregon and Michigan, so what qualifies as elite. I guess you have to beat OSU, but Michigan did and they are not elite this year.
I'm thinking they were playing with all the elite teams this year, just have to do it every year and beat OSU and we might be happy lol.

Yes, OSU lost to Michigan (still a head scratcher) but that's CF's #1 rivalry and anything can happen in that game and usually does.

But on the other side, ESPN showed that OSU is only the 4th team in history to beat 4 top five teams in a year which speaks volumes and is what most PSU fans complain about with Franklin --- his inability to beat top 5 teams

 

[proud2bpsufan]

To be "elite" as a program in this era is really tough
Michigan won a title but that's not an elite program. Is Alabama without Saban an elite program?
Right now, it's probably only Ohio State and UGa. And they both can't beat one team (Michigan and Bama)

I would agree that in this NEW modern era of college football (the last 4 years), with all of the major changes that have taken place, being elite has to take on a new definition. For me, a truly elite team now has to run the table without any missteps. That means going 12-0 regular season, winning the conference championship game, getting a first-round bye and winning three playoff games to become the national champion. Anything less than that is just very good. There were lots of very good teams this season which made it so fun to watch. Going 16-0 should be the only true definition of ELITE.

 

[heckmans]

PSU was so close to beating teams in the playoffs. A play here or there and they would be in the championship game against an "elite team". But that "elite" team lost to Oregon and Michigan, so what qualifies as elite. I guess you have to beat OSU, but Michigan did and they are not elite this year.
I'm thinking they were playing with all the elite teams this year, just have to do it every year and beat OSU and we might be happy lol.

Probably 1 Allen Robinson and 1 serviceable WR away from reaching the pinnacle

 

[blair10]

Probably 1 Allen Robinson and 1 serviceable WR away from reaching the pinnacle

Plus another O.J. McDuffie and Bobby Engram would help.

 

[PSUCYCLING]

Probably 1 Allen Robinson and 1 serviceable WR away from reaching the pinnacle

The WR room the last couple of years is the biggest head scratcher. From 2013 -2021 we went from Allen Robinson to Chris Godwin to KJ Hamler to Parker Washington to Jahan Dodson. Have the equivalent of any one of them this year and we are in the Natty.

For the first time since 1994 or 1995 we have an o line that can blow good teams off the line of scrimmage and dominate games on the ground. From the second half of the Oregon game to the ND game was the best running game we have seen at PSU since 1994. Having an elite receiver makes the running game even more lethal. That’s how Saban built Bama.

 

[heckmans]

The WR room the last couple of years is the biggest head scratcher. From 2013 -2021 we went from Allen Robinson to Chris Godwin to KJ Hamler to Parker Washington to Jahan Dodson. Have the equivalent of any one of them this year and we are in the Natty.

For the first time since 1994 or 1995 we have an o line that can blow good teams off the line of scrimmage and dominate games on the ground. From the second half of the Oregon game to the ND game was the best running game we have seen at PSU since 1994.

Totally agree. Hagans has been here 2 years so at this point, it's not a High School recruitment issue.
So... did PSU recruit talented WRs and Hagans has been unable to coach them, or did PSU miss on every WR that was recruited?

Another question is the Portal. In this age of NIL, why could PSU not get a better WR? Was it money or was these something else that led to the available kids not wanting to play at PSU (w/o knowing the kids, it could be almost anything).

 

[m.knox]

Not elite. Close though. Need to be a more complete team, and more consistent. When I think of "elite" I think of "well oiled machine." I think another criteria is a quality win like in 1994 against UM and IL.

That said, I think PSU is Natty worthy and could have put up a great game against OSU.

 

[87 Penn St8]

Probably 1 Allen Robinson and 1 serviceable WR away from reaching the pinnacle

And a stud LB upgrade over Dom D- who was a warrior and made many big plays- but simply is not at the level of athlete that OSU, UGA and Bama run out there at that position.

Eventually "those guys" make the plays when scheme doesn't work...and the "Big Plays" lead to the "Big Game Wins" which we have not made in the biggest of Big Games....hence our Coaches' moniker which he will maintain as we snatched defeat out of the jaws of victory vs undermanned ND.

Not necessarily James' fault- but just the fact.

 

[MacNit2.0]

Totally agree. Hagans has been here 2 years so at this point, it's not a High School recruitment issue.
So... did PSU recruit talented WRs and Hagans has been unable to coach them, or did PSU miss on every WR that was recruited?

Another question is the Portal. In this age of NIL, why could PSU not get a better WR? Was it money or was these something else that led to the available kids not wanting to play at PSU (w/o knowing the kids, it could be almost anything).

Another question is Hagans’ boss.

 

[Lionsfan1000]

Elite status is earned over time, not for one year. Elite status means contending for the national championship most years (final 4) and making the playoffs every year, except for the rarest of exception(key injury) . So far from elite. Very good but not
Close to elite.

 

[bdgan]

Absolutely not.

If you want to be elite, you have to beat top-tier teams.

Ohio State just beat their fourth top-5 team this year. That's more than Penn State has beaten this century. Notre Dame has beaten two top-5 teams -- more than Franklin's entire tenure. Those teams can claim elite status. We can't.

Our marquee wins were Boise, SMU, and Illinois. If that's gonna be your pinnacle, you better look like a juggernaut in your other games. The USC, Minnesota, and Bowling Green games (to say nothing of the losses) suggest that we were hardly a juggernaut.

A very good season, but a deceptively inflated record and final poll standing (we'll finish #4) based on a fairly light schedule.

I think we might finish #5

Would you vote 13-3 PSU ahead of 13-1 Oregon, especially when Oregon won head to head?

 

[lazydave841]

ESPN showed that OSU is only the 4th team in history to beat 4 top five teams in a year which speaks volumes

OSU is also the first to benefit from the expanded playoff and have the opportunity to do so. Going forward, whoever wins the playoff will have a similar win type total. It's those who did it before this year who are really impressive. Even the 4 team playoff era meant you had to be 2 top 4 teams MINIMUM.

It's like saying "PSU won a record 13 games this year." While it is a fact, it's nowhere near as impressive as the 12-0 '94 team. It just means we played more games.

 

[Wesauking Lion]

Not elite. Good team. 6-10 in the country. The system changed with the playoffs. PSU is the same old PSU. To be elite, you have to beat the best teams. This has not happened in decades.

 

[rrdd2021]

OSU is also the first to benefit from the expanded playoff and have the opportunity to do so. Going forward, whoever wins the playoff will have a similar win type total. It's those who did it before this year who are really impressive. Even the 4 team playoff era meant you had to be 2 top 4 teams MINIMUM.

It's like saying "PSU won a record 13 games this year." While it is a fact, it's nowhere near as impressive as the 12-0 '94 team. It just means we played more games.

Understood but the point is that they've earned their way and keep in mind, we're not talking total wins but wins over elite teams

Plus, with Notre Dame being ranked 3rd and 5th in the final polls, if OSU beats them on the 20th, OSU will become the first CF team to defeat 5 top five poll teams in the same year. That is simply badass and -again - they will have earned the title which is the point ESPN was trying to make

 

[NittanyIllinois]

I think we might finish #5

Would you vote 13-3 PSU ahead of 13-1 Oregon, especially when Oregon won head to head?

Good point. I assumed OSU and ND (in some order) will be #1 and #2. Texas #3. Penn State #4. Oregon #5.

But actually I think Oregon will get #3. Especially if OSU wins it all. Those poor bastards had the horrific luck of getting paired with a juggernaut.

Oregon would deserve the #3 spot above us. That would push us to #5.

 

[NittanyIllinois]

OSU is also the first to benefit from the expanded playoff and have the opportunity to do so. Going forward, whoever wins the playoff will have a similar win type total. It's those who did it before this year who are really impressive. Even the 4 team playoff era meant you had to be 2 top 4 teams MINIMUM.

It's like saying "PSU won a record 13 games this year." While it is a fact, it's nowhere near as impressive as the 12-0 '94 team. It just means we played more games.

Definitely a fair point. Although OSU did beat a pair of top-5 teams in the regular season which rarely happens. Certainly in the Big Ten. That's literally more than we've won this century as a program.

Which is a crazy statistic.

 

[rrdd2021]

Good point. I assumed OSU and ND (in some order) will be #1 and #2. Texas #3. Penn State #4. Oregon #5.

But actually I think Oregon will get #3. Especially if OSU wins it all. Those poor bastards had the horrific luck of getting paired with a juggernaut.

Oregon would deserve the #3 spot above us. That would push us to #5.

I actually think the Michigan win over OSU - still can't figure out how - screwed the rest of CF (especially Oregon) when it dropped OSU clear down to the #8 seed

 

[bdgan]

Not elite. Close though. Need to be a more complete team, and more consistent. When I think of "elite" I think of "well oiled machine." I think another criteria is a quality win like in 1994 against UM and IL.

That said, I think PSU is Natty worthy and could have put up a great game against OSU.

What would it have taken this team to move from close to elite to elite? Probably two players, a WR and a LB. Those two players would probably have cost another $2 million of NIL per year.

I think we got off easy this year because most of our star players were recruited before NIL was a thing. Rumors are that OSU spends $20 million and PSU spends $12 million. Maybe we're $8 million per year short.

 

[rrdd2021]

Exactly. You can’t go 0-3 against teams with a pulse and be considered elite.

Also, what elite team has had their WRs go an entire game with zero receptions.

Penn State has a good team but they are nowhere near being elite.

If they start beating big boy programs, then we can revisit the elite question. For now, forget about it.

Still absolutely mind boggling

 

[jimarnp]

PSU was so close to beating teams in the playoffs. A play here or there and they would be in the championship game against an "elite team". But that "elite" team lost to Oregon and Michigan, so what qualifies as elite. I guess you have to beat OSU, but Michigan did and they are not elite this year.
I'm thinking they were playing with all the elite teams this year, just have to do it every year and beat OSU and we might be happy lol.

“Flashes” of being elite.Closer to elite than last year. —We’re trending upward, not downward.

 

[GregInPitt]

PSU was so close to beating teams in the playoffs. A play here or there and they would be in the championship game against an "elite team". But that "elite" team lost to Oregon and Michigan, so what qualifies as elite. I guess you have to beat OSU, but Michigan did and they are not elite this year.
I'm thinking they were playing with all the elite teams this year, just have to do it every year and beat OSU and we might be happy lol.

"PSU was so close to beating teams in the playoffs."

Newsflash: PSU DID beat 2 "playoff" teams "in the playoffs".

If a team gets to the final 4 it would seem to be "elite" that year. Would be nice if PSU finished in the top 4 this season, but that may not happen.

But every year most teams start over in that quest to finish Elite, which in a true playoff seems to be going to the final 4, just like it is in March Madness.

 

[lazydave841]

Understood but the point is that they've earned their way and keep in mind, we're not talking total wins but wins over elite teams

Plus, with Notre Dame being ranked 3rd and 5th in the final polls, if OSU beats them on the 20th, OSU will become the first CF team to defeat 5 top five poll teams in the same year. That is simply badass and -again - they will have earned the title which is the point ESPN was trying to make

Again, I take nothing away from OSU. They beat ND, I'd call them elite. They definitely earned it as well and I don't think anybody is arguing that they didn't.

I don't agree with the elite wins comment, but that's perhaps my definition vs yours, his, hers, and everybody else's.