Way OT: 2019 Jeep Wrangler

[ivan brunetti]

How much time have you spent in a 2019 Wrangler and a 4Runner from the last 2 years or so?

None. But I have read about both.

The main reason why I would buy a 4Runner over a Wrangler is reliability. I don't lease vehicles, so a car with poor reliability like the Wrangler is a non starter for me.

I agree that the 4Runner is also a compromised daily driver. But since it is less likely to break down, it still is better than the Wrangler for daily use.

 

[BornALion]

None. But I have read about both.

The main reason why I would buy a 4Runner over a Wrangler is reliability. I don't lease vehicles, so a car with poor reliability like the Wrangler is a non starter for me.

I agree that the 4Runner is also a compromised daily driver. But since it is less likely to break down, it still is better than the Wrangler for daily use.

6 years with my Wrangler and never had to bring it in once. 72k miles and runs like the day I bought it. (knock on wood)

 

[fastlax16]

None. But I have read about both.

The main reason why I would buy a 4Runner over a Wrangler is reliability. I don't lease vehicles, so a car with poor reliability like the Wrangler is a non starter for me.

I agree that the 4Runner is also a compromised daily driver. But since it is less likely to break down, it still is better than the Wrangler for daily use.

We had a 2012 Sahara for 3 years, was never in the shop for anything other than scheduled maintenance. A few friends have them and the only issues I'm aware of were the result of aftermarket modifications (lift kits). Removing brand loyalties, most new cars, that aren't Land Rovers, are very reliable, especially compared to 10 or 20 years ago, if we are being honest yet reputations linger, like people who think turbocharged cars smell like oil.

 

[fastlax16]

There's another list of boxes.
Noisy as hell? Check- Not really, but depends on trim. Rubicons are louder because of the tires. Saharas with a hard top aren't.
Sounds like the windows are down even when they're not? Check.- Not really.
Lurch-o-matic Suspension making an hour's drive exhausting? Check.- False
Tranny and motor noise only a 16 yo could love? Check- False
No matter how much money you spend it's still a Dodge? Check.- Yes, and no matter how much of that money you spend, its resale will be higher than whatever else you are considering.

When was the last time you drove an hour in a new Jeep? My guess is never.

 

[massimoManca II]

(And the strikingly similar Alltrack version is available with 6MT.)

Except the Alltrack is playing the Subaru Outback game, as such, one pays a $4,500 premium (vs. the essentially same FWD GSW) for glued on cladding and AWD - two things 94% of owners don’t need ...

Intriguing as the 6MT is, they are like hen’s teeth (and they’re soon to be discontinued) though i saw one on a dealer lot while shopping last fall with the boner-inducing Marrakesh interior

 

[demlion]

When was the last time you drove an hour in a new Jeep? My guess is never.

Your guess is dead wrong. My buddy has a 2018 Unlimited with the 6 cylinder. I have ridden in it and driven it for well over 2 hours. He got it when his 2014, with about 80k on the clock, suffered a complete failure of the differential when he was pulling out into fast traffic on 2-lane US 522. A tractor trailer left 150 feet of skid marks but luckily was able to stop as he sat helpless across the lane with traffic coming the other way and nowhere for the tractor trailer to go but stop. He got stopped about 10 yards short of broadsiding him.

I would never have bought another, but I guess it's a Jeep thing and I wouldn't understand.

 

[Obliviax]

When was the last time you drove an hour in a new Jeep? My guess is never.

I rode a Wrangler once. I was nice, smelled like chick poop but was otherwise, an enjoyable experience.

 

[Zenophile]

I rode a Wrangler once. I was nice, smelled like chick poop but was otherwise, an enjoyable experience.

That's called Family Planning in the @ericstratton-rushchairman household.

 

[demlion]

When was the last time you drove an hour in a new Jeep? My guess is never.

The resale value on my cars is always as close to zero as I can get it to be, by the time they are resold.. You seem impressed with a sort of "news cars as investments" theory that is frankly reminiscent of the used car salesman on lots outside of Army bases full of Barracudas and Camaros circa 1975.

Not how I do it.

 

[ivan brunetti]

We had a 2012 Sahara for 3 years, was never in the shop for anything other than scheduled maintenance. A few friends have them and the only issues I'm aware of were the result of aftermarket modifications (lift kits). Removing brand loyalties, most new cars, that aren't Land Rovers, are very reliable, especially compared to 10 or 20 years ago, if we are being honest yet reputations linger, like people who think turbocharged cars smell like oil.

Sorry but I disagree. There is a huge difference between the most reliable cars and the least.

I would agree that reliability has generally improved since the 70's-80's.

Consumer Reports worst reliability models for 2018:

VW Atlas
Cadillac CTS
Alfa Romeo Giulia
Kia Cadenza
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac CT6
Chevy Silverado
Tesla Model X
Buick Enclave
Jaguar F Pace

Most reliable:

Lexus GX
Toyota Prius (C, Prime, & Base)
Mazda MX5 Miata
Toyota Corolla
Lexus NX
Honda Fit
Kia Sedona
Toyota Highlander

 

[Judge Smails]

Wranglers hold their value ... incredible what they get for pre-owned one's with high mileage.

You got that right. I bought one, held it for 5 years and 60k miles, and sold it for $2k less than I bought it for.

 

[Zenophile]

Wranglers hold their value ... incredible what they get for pre-owned one's with high mileage.

You got that right. I bought one, held it for 5 years and 60k miles, and sold it for $2k less than I bought it for.

Indeed. Apparently it's rare to find one both used and unmodified.

 

[fastlax16]

Sorry but I disagree. There is a huge difference between the most reliable cars and the least.

I would agree that reliability has generally improved since the 70's-80's.

Consumer Reports worst reliability models for 2018:

VW Atlas
Cadillac CTS
Alfa Romeo Giulia
Kia Cadenza
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac CT6
Chevy Silverado
Tesla Model X
Buick Enclave
Jaguar F Pace

Most reliable:

Lexus GX
Toyota Prius (C, Prime, & Base)
Mazda MX5 Miata
Toyota Corolla
Lexus NX
Honda Fit
Kia Sedona
Toyota Highlander

I said most, not all. The vast majority of new cars sold today are more reliable and safer than ever before. You'll always have a bottom ten with regards to reliability until there are fewer than ten models sold. That said, glad to see a number of GM products on the list with all of those god awful real people commercials.

Wrangler appears to be missing from the bottom ten and the 4runner is missing from the top ten.

 

[ivan brunetti]

I said most, not all. The vast majority of new cars sold today are more reliable and safer than ever before. You'll always have a bottom ten with regards to reliability until there are fewer than ten models sold. That said, glad to see a number of GM products on the list with all of those god awful real people commercials.

Wrangler appears to be missing from the bottom ten and the 4runner is missing from the top ten.

Ha. Yes, but with hundreds of models, that doesn't mean the difference between the poorly built FCA Wrangler and the Toyota is insignificant.

 

[fastlax16]

Ha. Yes, but with hundreds of models, that doesn't mean the difference between the poorly built FCA Wrangler and the Toyota is insignificant.

You have no basis for calling the 2019 Wrangler poorly built except for your biases.

The 4runner is on a platform that is over a decade old. The gap between the 2 is far smaller than you insinuate and the Jeep comes with way better interior materials and more modern technology/features.

 

[PSU95alum]

There's another list of boxes.
Noisy as hell? Check
Sounds like the windows are down even when they're not? Check.
Lurch-o-matic Suspension making an hour's drive exhausting? Check.
Tranny and motor noise only a 16 yo could love? Check
No matter how much money you spend it's still a Dodge? Check.

This vehicle isn't meant for old fogies like you demlion.

 

[massimoManca II]

Sorry but I disagree. There is a huge difference between the most reliable cars and the least.

I would agree that reliability has generally improved since the 70's-80's.

Consumer Reports worst reliability models for 2018:

VW Atlas
Cadillac CTS
Alfa Romeo Giulia
Kia Cadenza
Cadillac Escalade
Cadillac CT6
Chevy Silverado
Tesla Model X
Buick Enclave
Jaguar F Pace

Most reliable:

Lexus GX
Toyota Prius (C, Prime, & Base)
Mazda MX5 Miata
Toyota Corolla
Lexus NX
Honda Fit
Kia Sedona
Toyota Highlander

Consumer Reports is hardly the perfect barometer of reliability... in theory, their annual car issue - particularly with all those little circles that are supposed to call out troublesome areas by model/model-year, seems like it’s informative... alas, it’s barely directional, at best.

In summary, Consumer Reports is over-rated ... consists mostly of patronizing water-is-wet articles, written mostly for morons...

 

[fastlax16]

This vehicle isn't meant for old fogies like you demlion.

I believe I read the average age of wrangler buyers is 49.

 

[81b&w]

Nothing like a bit of fear mongering. Get a new mechanic. I’ve driven exclusively turbo cars,that are driven hard and put away wet, for the past decade. None smelled like oil. Fuel injection and turbos are also not mutually exclusive. Not that all things are equal across brands but $3000 to replace a factory turbo is excessive unless you’re the kind of person that goes to the dealer and bends over. You can pickup an is12 turbo for a base golf fornunder 200 bucks and installing it should be ~600. I had to have a shop install/uninstall the turbo on my golf r 4 times last summer (self inflicted issue) and labor was right at 600 each time. Hell, my buddy picked up turbos for his 2001 Porsche 911 turbo and they weren’t that much.

What am I missing here? You had the turbo replaced 4 times in one Summer at $600 a pop and you're sticking up for turbos??

 

[fastlax16]

What am I missing here? You had the turbo replaced 4 times in one Summer at $600 a pop and you're sticking up for turbos??

The words self, inflicted and issue. I didn't replace the turbo 4 times. I installed an aftermarket turbo and there were a lot of problems with it requiring it to be removed and then reinstalled twice before I finally pulled the plug and reinstalled the original turbo and sold the car. $600 was just the labor, not the price of the aftermarket turbo ($3000).

Basically the story is this- I put a larger aftermarket turbo on my golf r with the goal of hitting about 550/600 horsepower, I cut some corners and it led to wastegate and fueling issues, basically the car never ran correctly. The whole debacle cost me 5 or 6 grand but its my fault, live and learn.

Turbos are fine, I was just a dumbass. Golf Rs are roughly 300 crank hp stock, prior to upgrading the turbo, I'd modified the car to produce around 450 hp, so roughly 50% more than it comes with from VW. To oversimplify, this was done by increasing the psi the turbo was operating at from a peak of ~17 psi to a peak of ~23 psi. I do half mile races on airport runways, which is exactly what it sounds like- a half mile drag race on an airport runway, wide open throttle. I did 40 passes at the last one I raced at, which means I drove the car 20 miles at full throttle over the course of about 4 hours producing far more power than it comes with stock and had zero issues. I had this setup for 3 years/30,000 miles, did multiple events with zero issues. Modern turbo cars are over-engineered and come from the factory running far lower boost than they are capable of handling. turbos blow occasionally, but in my experience, if they're going to blow, they're going to blow early because they're defective from the factory and those defects will result in failure very early in a cars life when you're still under warranty.

Speaking strictly in terms of current Golf Rs and GTIs, I haven't seen or heard about any stock cars blowing turbos with 20,000/30,000 miles or more, they blow in the first couple hundred or couple thousand miles at most.

I'm planning on buying another one, or an RS3, after my wedding and throwing all of the old parts back on minus the bigger turbo which I sold.

This is what a turbo looks like going flat out for a half mile. I'm hard on my cars

 

[demlion]

I believe I read the average age of wrangler buyers is 49.

Lol! But they want people to think they are 39.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Consumer Reports is hardly the perfect barometer of reliability... in theory, their annual car issue - particularly with all those little circles that are supposed to call out troublesome areas by model/model-year, seems like it’s informative... alas, it’s barely directional, at best.

In summary, Consumer Reports is over-rated ... consists mostly of patronizing water-is-wet articles, written mostly for morons...

Ha. Consumer Reports is one of the few unbiased voices in the automobile media. Their reliability data may not be perfect, but it is a hell of lot more accurate than JD Power or whatever else people use.

Find me ONE person who thinks FCA's reliability is as good as that of Toyota.
One person.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Here is a link featuring a Wrangler vs 4Runner comparison video. Enjoy!

 

[fastlax16]

Here is a link featuring a Wrangler vs 4Runner comparison video. Enjoy!

View embedded media

So it’s a 50,000 dollar top of the line truck.... And it has halogen headlights... in 2019...

 

[8th Man]

You have no basis for calling the 2019 Wrangler poorly built except for your biases.

The 4runner is on a platform that is over a decade old. The gap between the 2 is far smaller than you insinuate and the Jeep comes with way better interior materials and more modern technology/features.

FCA has earned its reputation for poor quality over the last decade.

While the Wrangler could surprise and actually be better than average, I wouldn't bet on that.

For example, FCA put a ton of money into the redesign of their Pacifica minivan, and all the reviewers loved it. Unfortunately, worse than average reliability drags down its appeal. I can see leasing an FCA product, but I would never buy if I wanted to keep it for life.

 

[fastlax16]

FCA has earned its reputation for poor quality over the last decade.

While the Wrangler could surprise and actually be better than average, I wouldn't bet on that.

For example, FCA put a ton of money into the redesign of their Pacifica minivan, and all the reviewers loved it. Unfortunately, worse than average reliability drags down its appeal. I can see leasing an FCA product, but I would never buy if I wanted to keep it for life.

Fca sucks, probably the worst car company in the us except for maybe Mitsubishi. Personal observations have been that the wranglers are in general the best product they make. If they were falling apart,like every fiat and Chrysler I’ve been in in the last 5 years, you wouldn’t see the sky high resale values.

Personally I Wouldn’t consider anything else they make outside of the wrangler with possible but unlikely exceptions for the charger hellcat or a first/last generation viper.

 

[massimoManca II]

Ha. Consumer Reports is one of the few unbiased voices in the automobile media. Their reliability data may not be perfect, but it is a hell of lot more accurate than JD Power or whatever else people use.

Find me ONE person who thinks FCA's reliability is as good as that of Toyota.
One person.

Never claimed CR was biased... their reviews, in fact, often take no position / offer little by way of any opinion and are little more than spec-Listings.....

Only claiming that their product is often of little value, and I’m not just referring to their reviews of cars...

 

[ivan brunetti]

Never claimed CR was biased... their reviews, in fact, often take no position / offer little by way of any opinion and are little more than spec-Listings.....

Only claiming that their product is often of little value, and I’m not just referring to their reviews of cars...

Little more than spec listings? I am sorry but you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Fca sucks, probably the worst car company in the us except for maybe Mitsubishi. Personal observations have been that the wranglers are in general the best product they make. If they were falling apart,like every fiat and Chrysler I’ve been in in the last 5 years, you wouldn’t see the sky high resale values.

Personally I Wouldn’t consider anything else they make outside of the wrangler with possible but unlikely exceptions for the charger hellcat or a first/last generation viper.

Reliability does not always go hand in hand with popularity. Harleys are an example of a product with a loyal fan base and suspect build quality.

 

[fastlax16]

Reliability does not always go hand in hand with popularity. Harleys are an example of a product with a loyal fan base and suspect build quality.

there is a correlation, people wouldnt pay 95% of sticker for a used wrangler that’s falling apart when new ones are readily available. I travel a lot for work so I get lots of rentals. The fiats and Chryslers I get as rentals have literally always been broken in some way and they’re usually pretty new vehicles. I was ready to set a fiat 500 on fire after about 45 minutes last year.

 

[dbsteel]

I bought a Wrangler Shara in 2016 and never again. I have had nothing but problem with it. I bought it with about 7K on it, New engine at 23K and now a new tranny at 40K. Also other issues along the way. Radiator, coolant lines, multiple batteries, 2 sensors went.

I got a new 2015 Unlimited Sport, and have had no problems. Stuff happens.

 

[dbsteel]

None. But I have read about both.

The main reason why I would buy a 4Runner over a Wrangler is reliability. I don't lease vehicles, so a car with poor reliability like the Wrangler is a non starter for me.

I agree that the 4Runner is also a compromised daily driver. But since it is less likely to break down, it still is better than the Wrangler for daily use.

I don't think they should be compared. If you are comparing it to other Daily Drivers, its not going to win. Its the only vehicle I know right now that is really capable off road, stock, where you can take the top and roof off. That's why its fun at the beach or in the woods.

The 4 runner is also more expensive when it comes down to it.

 

[ivan brunetti]

I don't think they should be compared. If you are comparing it to other Daily Drivers, its not going to win. Its the only vehicle I know right now that is really capable off road, stock, where you can take the top and roof off. That's why its fun at the beach or in the woods.

The 4 runner is also more expensive when it comes down to it.

Agreed, the 4 Runner is more expensive. You can't take the top off but it is the better daily driver.

If you are going to lease and use primarily for trails/beach whatnot, then I could see opting for the Jeep.

 

[demlion]

Agreed, the 4 Runner is more expensive. You can't take the top off but it is the better daily driver.

If you are going to lease and use primarily for trails, then I could see opting for the Jeep.

<1% Of Wrangler owners use them primarily for trails. I know people with lifted Ford trucks who have NEVER taken them offroad or hauled anything heavier than bags of mulch in the back, and I am fairly sure there are Wrangler owners who are the same.

It's their vehicle and their money, so that's obviously not up to me.

I am also, as a person who uses a 20 year old, 213,000 mile 4wd truck to do actual work gathering firewood, not particularly interested in their opinions on ruggedness or reliability. Even if they write them in magazines.

It is manliness signalling.

 

[Sunsox]

I had a 2013 4Runner and in the span of four years the heated seats failed not once, not twice, but three times. The electric locks on all four doors failed at some point and the rear window motor crapped out. I hated that car and was happy to get rid of it.

 

[fastlax16]

After this and the Tesla thread, definitely going to have to post an OT if I end up ordering a new Golf R, hopefully purple, this year or next. Responses should be gold.

 

[ivan brunetti]

After this and the Tesla thread, definitely going to have to post an OT if I end up ordering a new Golf R, hopefully purple, this year or next. Responses should be gold.

I almost bought a Golf R about 20 months ago. The dealer wanted over list. I wouldn't go over sticker (already felt foolish paying that much). He sold it to someone else later that week.

It is a great all around car. Just don't go overboard with your APR tune.

 

[fastlax16]

I almost bought a Golf R about 20 months ago. The dealer wanted over list. I wouldn't go over sticker (already felt foolish paying that much). He sold it to someone else later that week.

It is a great all around car. Just don't go overboard with your APR tune.

Most go at or over sticker (I paid slightly over for my 2016 in 2015) was the first (and only)manual in Chicago and there were no others within 1000 miles and someone else was waiting to take it out when I got back from my test drive. Not my finest moment but hey. I’m actually considering finding a Canadian one and driving it back. Exchange rate makes them a better deal.

I’ve been waiting to see what the next gen looks like before deciding but car and driver just posted pics of a 2021 and it looks like white hot dog shit.

Apr sucks as a company. They roll out underdeveloped products and then fine tune them on customer cars. Will probably go with a unitronic or giac stage 2 tune. I’ve got all of the bolt on parts off my last one ready to go. Intercooler/intake/downpipe/jb4/resonator delete and motor mounts. Should be good for mid to low 11s.

 

[ivan brunetti]

Most go at or over sticker (I paid slightly over for my 2016 in 2015) was the first (and only)manual in Chicago and there were no others within 1000 miles and someone else was waiting to take it out when I got back from my test drive. Not my finest moment but hey. I’m actually considering finding a Canadian one and driving it back. Exchange rate makes them a better deal.

I’ve been waiting to see what the next gen looks like before deciding but car and driver just posted pics of a 2021 and it looks like white hot dog shit.

Apr sucks as a company. They roll out underdeveloped products and then fine tune them on customer cars. Will probably go with a unitronic or giac stage 2 tune. I’ve got all of the bolt on parts off my last one ready to go. Intercooler/intake/downpipe/jb4/resonator delete and motor mounts. Should be good for mid to low 11s.

You know the story of the R. WV announced it was coming in something like November 2013. That it would be a regular production model, just like the GTI here in the states. I thought, "great! I will set aside some cash to buy in Spring or at the latest, Summer!"

Then when they did finally start showing up, there was never more than 3 on the lot at a time. Usually none. They were selling for 2 grand over sticker. Fine, I thought. I will wait until production catches up with the demand. So I sat around with the price of the car in my checking account for something like 3 + years... Arrrrrgh. Eventually I threw in the towel and bought myself a 2 series.

It is great that they have opened up the color wheel. I like the British racing green (even though it is very Sparty), but all the blues look like very slight variations of lapiz. Where is NAVY, VW?

Have fun with your new toy. No plans to upgrade the brakes?

edit: wow, you weren't kidding about the 2020. VW really did mess up the lights. I suppose there's a chance that the R will look better, but the base Golf just keeps getting more and more homely. Why don't they hire some of their Skoda and Seat designers?

 

[fastlax16]

You know the story of the R. WV announced it was coming in something like November 2013. That it would be a regular production model, just like the GTI here in the states. I thought, "great! I will set aside some cash to buy in Spring or at the latest, Summer!"

Then when they did finally start showing up, there was never more than 3 on the lot at a time. Usually none. They were selling for 2 grand over sticker. Fine, I thought. I will wait until production catches up with the demand. So I sat around with the price of the car in my checking account for something like 3 + years... Arrrrrgh. Eventually I threw in the towel and bought myself a 2 series.

It is great that they have opened up the color wheel. I like the British racing green (even though it is very Sparty), but all the blues look like very slight variations of lapiz. Where is NAVY, VW?

Have fun with your new toy. No plans to upgrade the brakes?

edit: wow, you weren't kidding about the 2020. VW really did mess up the lights. I suppose there's a chance that the R will look better, but the base Golf just keeps getting more and more homely. Why don't they hire some of their Skoda and Seat designers?

VW has sold around 3300 a year for the current generation. The first 2 gens (mk4/mk5 r32) were limited to 5000 models in a 1 year run. The Mk6 had similar annual numbers to the current model but was only made in 2012/2013 so still a small run overall. You could get discounted models at the end of 2016/2017/2018 but the window for that was pretty short and exclusively manual cars.

Some dealers don't get any, 2019s are currently delayed so outside of a handful of leftover 2018s you can't even get a new one at the moment. If I didn't need AWD and 4 doors I'd get an M2 in a heartbeat.

I'm really disappointed in those. VW can definitely improve the body kit for the R and GTI but that's a pretty shitty starting point. If they give it the RS3 5 cyclinder all will be forgiven and I'll be at a dealer with a wheelbarrow full of cash the day its announced.