Why does Men's Lax Stink?

[Pardlion]

I've seen the last couple of televised men's lax games. This team stinks and its record reflects that. It doesn't seem like the team has been very good in recent memory.

How is this possible? Pennsylvania every year is producing some of the best players in the country. But, Penn State doesn't end up with them. In fact, the PSU team seems to be surprisingly light on Pennsylvania players. This is kind of like Minnesota hockey fielding a team of guys from Illinois and stinking.

The quality of the team and the failure of recruiting in PSU's own backyard seem like problems to me.

 

[9fold]

Originally posted by Pardlion:
I've seen the last couple of televised men's lax games. This team stinks and its record reflects that. It doesn't seem like the team has been very good in recent memory.

How is this possible? Pennsylvania every year is producing some of the best players in the country. But, Penn State doesn't end up with them. In fact, the PSU team seems to be surprisingly light on Pennsylvania players. This is kind of like Minnesota hockey fielding a team of guys from Illinois and stinking.

The quality of the team and the failure of recruiting in PSU's own backyard seem like problems to me.

I'm no lacrosse expert, but it seems that you answered your own question. As I recall, the coach came from U. of Denver. It would seem that he is in more of a talent hotbed at PSU, but he is also surrounded by more established programs given the popularity of lacrosse in the northeast and mid-Atlantic regions. PSU is not established as a top program, so recruiting is likely an uphill battle against the likes of Maryland, Johns Hopkins, UVA, Syracuse, etc.

 

[delcojim]

Coach came from Cornell, not Denver.

He was very highly regarded and his teams at Cornell were first rate.

 

[Pardlion]

It's true that there are a few private schools in PA that are loaded with kids, but on the other hand, the playoff-bound PIAA D1 schools all have several really good kids on them, so I think there is some significant public school talent to pick from.

It's true that the elite schools (Ivies, UNC, UVA, Duke, ND, etc.) are going to get first pick, but Ohio State and Rutgers aren't having trouble fielding good teams.

Based on what I've seen, I'm not even sure if PSU could beat any or all of Lehigh, Bucknell and Lafayette.

 

[mn78psu83]

the playoff-bound PIAA D1 schools all have several really good kids on
them, so I think there is some significant public school talent to pick
from.

I know, for example, at one time Ridley and Radnor produced a lot of D1 talent.

 

[Still in State College]

Once they spend the $8.4 million everything will turn around**


**

 

[Pardlion]

Originally posted by Nittany Ned2:
I'm not an expert on this stuff...Just parent who has been livin' "the lax life" (joy and snark intended) for the last 10 years. I watch a lot of lacrosse, 12 months a year.

There could be many different factors at play here. One for sure is the public school talent in PA. The PIAA has only sanctioned lax talent for less than 10 years. Plus, and this is key, club lacrosse and developmental community programs are not in place that will be feeding into the public high schools. It takes some time to get a sufficient pool of athletic kids in place that will collectively raise the level of play in public HS. Like many sports, you can't just pick up a stick and master the game in your high school years.

Here in MD lacrosse is so ubiquitous. Kids regularly pick up the game between 4-7 years old and are coached by parents who played collegiate lacrosse. By the time these kids get to high school they have incredibly polished skillsets.

As for Lafayette, Lehigh and Bucknell....I would guess that the bulk of their rosters are not from PA.

The other thing that could explain the lag in lax at PSU is MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. How many lax schols does Coach Tambroni have to work with? This is big because, there is often a bidding war that happens during the recruiting process.

There are plenty of clubs around the Philadelphia area--township programs and travel clubs. Not different than Maryland, really.

As for scholies, I thought that there were NCAA limits on the number of scholies, but could be wrong about that. So, yeah, that would be a limitation, but if everyone else has the same limitation, it shouldn't be a factor.

 

[burghBuck]

Re: Consider the teams they are playing...

Maryland and Denver are currently (and most years) top 5 teams. OSU is currently ranked top 15 and Penn State was mounting a comeback against them despite spotting them some easy goals early and OSU had to hold on to get a 2 point victory. UMASS and Loyola also generally have very good teams, but you see them struggling some this year too.

I didn't see last weekend's game, but Maryland will make a lot of teams look bad. As mentioned, defensively PSU gave up some easy goals to OSU in the first half and there were at least 2 of those where the goalie was completely out of position. Also, not sure if PSU has a good faceoff guy. I think OSU was winning faceoffs early, but PSU won every faceoff in the 4th quarter and outscored OSU 4-1.

I think lacrosse is getting more competitive and recruiting has to be getting harder as more and more programs are starting up or growing. Having the Big Ten conference affiliation is a huge step forward, but it's certainly not going to be easy running that gauntlet every year. That said, it's already the best league behind the ACC. I think having that affiliation will pay off in recruiting over the next few years.

And Coach Tambroni is an excellent coach and has a good staff. My son has gone for several years to his summer camp and he loves the guy (despite all my efforts to hypnotize him into the OSU cult!!).

 

[Ralphie_]

Re: Looks like NCAA limit is 12.6 scholarships.*

*

 

[Art]

There is an NCAA limit

on LAX scholarships, the equivalent of 12.6. Ivy League schools don't have to deal with that limitation since they don't give athletic scholarships.

 

[Art]

PSU is fully funding its men's LAX scholarships.*

1/9

 

[sluggo72]

Plus they get the FCOA at the same rate as their scholarship, so

someone on full scholie gets a full FCOA, while someone on a 50% scholie, gets a 50% FCOA. So If I have 12.6 scholies, I think I put the goalie on full scholarship, the next 22 on half scholarships, but with PSU FCOA being so high, it would make them almost full scholarships. The 0.6 would go to the Frosh goalie, and when he became full time goalie, he get on the full. Just a quick thought on this. Now you have 2+ full teams, on almost full scholarships, I'd say that would be pretty attractive.

 

[Thus Spoke Mainer]

Trying to channel Pitt football? **

.

 

[Art]

You have an funny definition of "almost."

Even with the COA stipends, your schemes falls 40-45% of a full scholarship for those other than goaltenders. Must have learned your math with your girlfriend.

 

[fairgambit]

Confucius say : Solution to stinky team is more "fresh"men. ****

****

 

[royboy]

Missed out on recruiting akronlion's kid as goalie?...Joe to blame**


nfm

 

[sluggo72]

Phew... rounding!!!!***

++

 

[mhentz]

I was at a game earlier in the year and got to talking to one of the players' fathers and he told me they had a real problem with chemistry on this team. They just weren't meshing together as a team the way everyone had hoped. In short they have a lot of really good players, but not a really good team. The guy said they hoped it would all come together as the season progressed (which apparently hasn't happened) but it was already being looked upon as a something of a lost season and a huge disappointment.

 

[PSU_Nut]

Originally posted by Pardlion:

It's true that there are a few private schools in PA that are loaded with kids, but on the other hand, the playoff-bound PIAA D1 schools all have several really good kids on them, so I think there is some significant public school talent to pick from.

It's true that the elite schools (Ivies, UNC, UVA, Duke, ND, etc.) are going to get first pick, but Ohio State and Rutgers aren't having trouble fielding good teams.

Based on what I've seen, I'm not even sure if PSU could beat any or all of Lehigh, Bucknell and Lafayette.

You lose all kind of credibility when you mention Rutgers being good. That is like saying Penn State has a good men's basketball program. They haven't made it to the tournament since 2003. Ohio State only made it once since 2008. Neither program are what you would say as good. Make me wonder if you really follow the sport.

 

[9fold]

Re: Coach came from Cornell, not Denver.

Originally posted by delcojim:
He was very highly regarded and his teams at Cornell were first rate.

Thanks. I don't know why I thought there was a Denver connection.

 

[LK64]

First I don't think the team stinks! Skunks stink - the team doesn't have the chemistry to have a better record. I'm sure the season is a disappointment to the team, coaches etc. as they were expected to be a lot better based on the talent they have.
Tambroni is an excellent coach and as pointed out he coached at Cornell before coming to us. He is also native to Syracuse and has been working this area actively with family and friends who realized we had a lacrosse team at PSU when he took the job. I personally am waiting for him to get that first kid who has an offer from Syracuse and he goes to Penn State. It is going to happen but it takes time and when it does happen you will know we have arrived on the lacrosse map.
The Maryland game was a disaster in the first period as UM scored 8 goals. After that it was a lot closer and they played harder never giving up the whole game. It does look like we need to find someone who can win face offs like we had the last couple years.

 

[Pardlion]

Yeah, Rutgers not a good example, although they have played several top teams very tough this year. Also, Lafayette sucks.

However, Lehigh and Bucknell are both ranked higher than PSU. Bucknell has less less than 10% of the number of students that PSU has, and costs about 3x as much.

Ohio State is obviously a strong team this year, although historically not a powerhouse. Nowhere near the homegrown talent that PS has, so obviously OSU is killing it on the recruiting trail.

This post was edited on 4/6 1:00 PM by Pardlion

 

[Pardlion]

Originally posted by LK64:

The Maryland game was a disaster in the first period as UM scored 8 goals. After that it was a lot closer and they played harder never giving up the whole game. It does look like we need to find someone who can win face offs like we had the last couple years.

5 pts. by Abington PA native Matt Rambo.

 

[Pardlion]

Originally posted by mhentz:
I was at a game earlier in the year and got to talking to one of the players' fathers and he told me they had a real problem with chemistry on this team. They just weren't meshing together as a team the way everyone had hoped. In short they have a lot of really good players, but not a really good team. The guy said they hoped it would all come together as the season progressed (which apparently hasn't happened) but it was already being looked upon as a something of a lost season and a huge disappointment.

Interesting. So, one of the players' dads said that the players (including his son) were really good, and not their fault that the team stinks.

I think I see part of the problem.

 

[Evan Ceg]

The program had grown stale under 33-year head coach Glenn Thiel, so when Tambroni was hired from Cornell there was great optimism that a Penn State run to the MLAX Final Four would happen in a few years. No signs of that yet. This season and last have been disappointments. Not sure what the problem is, but it doesn't seem recruiting has hit the elite level so far.

With the commitments Penn State has made (full scholarship allotments and finishing the LAX stadium), PSU should have Top 10 LAX programs.

 

[gslachta]

Penn State made it to the NCAA Tournament in 2013. Lost in first round to Yale 10-7.

 

[TCFA-Nit]

I played the game when I was a kid back in Ohio (my first high school coach, a Long Island native, referred to our style of play as "frontier lacrosse") just as the sport was beginning to become somewhat popular. I think there may have been maybe 30-some varsity programs in the entire state at the time. Maybe even less. This was back in the early 90s. My son is playing now so I've been following the sport on and off for a long time.

Basically, I think the problem for Penn State is the same problem that is faced by most schools that don't fall into the "traditional power" category. Which is to say, it's just really, really hard to break into that truly elite category. I mean, really, really hard. Schools like Hopkins, Maryland, 'Cuse, Virginia, etc. may have down years, but they have such a great legacy of success that you just know that they are one recruiting class away from being great again.

Beyond that, let's say that Penn State becomes the kind of program that consistently makes it into the tournament. That still doesn't really mean much. The difference in lacrosse between the schools ranked in the Top 5 vs. those ranked, say, 10-20 is massive. It's just not a sport where you see a lot of "upsets." For the most part, the better teams win. It was that way when I played and it still seems that way now.

Penn State made a big splash with the hire of Tramboni and I think everyone assumed that he would have the program in that Top 5 group in no time. It's just not that easy. It may happen, but I suspect it probably won't. It would be a great achievement to have the program consistently among the Top 10, IMO.

That being said, we have seen teams make the great leap forward (Denver being an obvious one), so it's possible. But everything I know about the sport, having watched it all these years, suggests that it's extremely difficult.

As for this season, I don't claim to be an expert on PSU lax but I do know much was expected of this group, and I believe they entered the season ranked No. 14 or No. 15, right alongside Lehigh. So the results have obviously been a major disappointment.



This post was edited on 4/6 2:14 PM by TCFA-Nit

 

[Marylovesthelions]

Who cares. If you added the hime game attendence since 1963, my freshman year, would you even get 10,000. This is not HS and there is no reason to have NCAA sports that there are no fans attending.

 

[Evan Ceg]

Originally posted by Marylovesthelions:

. . , there is no reason to have NCAA sports that there are no fans attending.

That's right. Because the justification for intercollegiate athletics is to edify the fans. Fans are the only reason to play sports.

 

[Marylovesthelions]

Did not say that but if a kid wants to "grow" by paying lax, his parents should foot thebill, not us.

 

[psulax3]

I didn't realize you personally pay for the non-revenue sports. Does Penn State send you a bill annually? If so, do they itemize said bill by sport?