Why is Penn State lagging behind in women's wrestling?

[Petch]

This was the topic that kept coming up over this past weekend. We were treated to outstanding women's wrestling (which has been the case for at least 6 years, honestly, at Final X and OTT). We hear that Audrey Jimenez, the high schooler 50kg finalist, is going to wrestle at Lehigh this fall. Women's wrestling is the fastest growing sport in the USA.

And we sit there wondering why PSU doesn't have a program and there seems to be nothing on the horizon. Isn't it way past time that Penn State gets its act together on this one and consolidate its position as the center of the wrestling universe in the USA? Why does it sit there watching the bus leave the station?

Oh hell….on one hand, I would love to see a PSU women’s wrestling team form…but think about poor Iowa if PSU jumps in. At least now, they have SOMETHING to crow about. I don’t think they would appreciate the PSU women dominating theirs so quickly and easily.

And then, what would happen when our women’s team starts beating up on their men’s team? It would get even more preposterous and ugly on GIA!!!

 

[El-Jefe]

Actually 19.66 Defense and Special teams count.

Maybe 19.75 if you count the punter.

 

[Agoodnap]

Iowa has 7 men's programs and 13 women's programs

PSU has 15 men's programs and 14 women's programs

 

[Mat Burn]

I like watching women collegiate sports, no matter how old I get, they never age.

 

[Chris Watts]

The bottom line for any new varsity team is:

1. Some donor has to step up with a gigantic check to endow the program. Probably north of $20M, and that might be low.

With one big enough donor, only then can PSU start a fundraising campaign to fill in the rest needed to begin a new program.

2. Nothing will happen until PSU gets actuals (both revenue and cost) showing the effects of adding the 4 western teams. They may need a couple years of data to get a good picture, especially for Olympic sports costs.

While this might have little effect on an individual sport, it affects Athletics overall and thus the capacity to expand.

3. Until #2 is clearer, PSU will likely steer any big donors toward NIL instead.

Are you saying that $20M is the number that's roughly necessary to make it so women's wrestling doesn't lose money? As you know, requiring a sport to be cash flow positive would eliminate nearly every one. Wouldn't be fair to put that requirement only on women's wrestling. So, I'm thinking I'm misunderstanding here.

Anyway, I think everyone is looking at this wrong. Women's wrestling should replace the worst earning current sport. Women's basketball lost $4.2 million in 22-23. Even without donors, do you think women's wrestling would lose that much every year?

Bottom line: women's wrestling should replace women's basketball.

 

[El-Jefe]

Are you saying that $20M is the number that's roughly necessary to make it so women's wrestling doesn't lose money? As you know, requiring a sport to be cash flow positive would eliminate nearly every one. Wouldn't be fair to put that requirement only on women's wrestling. So, I'm thinking I'm misunderstanding here.

Anyway, I think everyone is looking at this wrong. Women's wrestling should replace the worst earning current sport. Women's basketball lost $4.2 million in 22-23. Even without donors, do you think women's wrestling would lose that much every year?

Bottom line: women's wrestling should replace women's basketball.

No, am saying that PSU needs a minimum threshold for an endowed fund to cover initial program start-up, plus allow interest payments to annually cover present value of coach salaries and maybe scholarships.

Am guessing at $20M from one donor as maybe enough, or at least enough for PSU to start a campaign to get the rest.

Admittedly that might be too low.

Also: not including annual operating expenses or salary/scholarship cost growth, or facilities upgrades ...

 

[Bob_Anderson]

Are you saying that $20M is the number that's roughly necessary to make it so women's wrestling doesn't lose money? As you know, requiring a sport to be cash flow positive would eliminate nearly every one. Wouldn't be fair to put that requirement only on women's wrestling. So, I'm thinking I'm misunderstanding here.

Anyway, I think everyone is looking at this wrong. Women's wrestling should replace the worst earning current sport. Women's basketball lost $4.2 million in 22-23. Even without donors, do you think women's wrestling would lose that much every year?

Bottom line: women's wrestling should replace women's basketball.

Look at it like this: if any of the women's sports that are currently losing 7 figures a year were trying to be added in this day and age, it would not happen. The fact that they've been "grandfathered in", along with Title IX is enabling these sports to continue.

The bottom line is that athletic department is not going to take on new cost centers. The AD is hemorrhaging money, and has many infrastructure projects to finance, including a $750 million dollar stadium renovation. The new TV deal isn't going to cover all this stuff. Add in NIL and many people that solely donated to the Levi Lamb fund now have to decide if they can even keep their current donations flowing to the AD. The entire situation is a shitshow.

Iowa added women's wrestling because they were facing a Title IX lawsuit, not out of benevolence.

 

[Still in State College]

I like watching women collegiate sports, no matter how old I get, they never age.

Yes they do. Yes they do.

 

[ggcpsu]

This is going to happen, and sooner than people think, IMO. If we don't have a women's team by 2030 I would be floored.
Also, startup costs are way less than $20 million. The facility already exists. You're looking at like $500,000 a year in scholarship costs TOPS. Coach salaries probably a number less than that. You'd be able to run the whole program each year for around $2 million, I'd think. think psu would probably want a $7-10 million fund for it.

 

[Chris Watts]

No, am saying that PSU needs a minimum threshold for an endowed fund to cover initial program start-up, plus allow interest payments to annually cover present value of coach salaries and maybe scholarships.

Am guessing at $20M from one donor as maybe enough, or at least enough for PSU to start a campaign to get the rest.

Admittedly that might be too low.

Also: not including annual operating expenses or salary/scholarship cost growth, or facilities upgrades ...

Ok, so you are assuming that women's wrestling would need to do things like "cover initial program start-up" and "annually cover present value of coach salaries" before it could be added as a new sport. I'm not sure why those things in particular would need to be covered, but regardless. I'm saying that if it's a money argument then there are other ways to offset the expense of adding women's wrestling. In particular, I picked out a current sport that has $4 million in annual losses.

As others have pointed out, the athletic department is a large budget number in a larger budget number. And the university is pondering expenses that make the cost of women's wrestling look like pocket change. For example, I bet we could find a VE item in this stadium renovation that would offset the start-up costs.

But I guess the point is simply that universities don't always need to wait for an angel donor to show up for these things to happen. As we all know, high school girl's wrestling is skyrocketing in popularity. At this rate, many more colleges will be adding women's wrestling in the very near future. And they will all somehow be able to make it work in their budgets. Maybe Penn State won't be one of them, but I'll skeptical that the lack of a millionaire benefactor will be the sole reason why.

 

[ggcpsu]

Ok, so you are assuming that women's wrestling would need to do things like "cover initial program start-up" and "annually cover present value of coach salaries" before it could be added as a new sport. I'm not sure why those things in particular would need to be covered, but regardless. I'm saying that if it's a money argument then there are other ways to offset the expense of adding women's wrestling. In particular, I picked out a current sport that has $4 million in annual losses.

As others have pointed out, the athletic department is a large budget number in a larger budget number. And the university is pondering expenses that make the cost of women's wrestling look like pocket change. For example, I bet we could find a VE item in this stadium renovation that would offset the start-up costs.

But I guess the point is simply that universities don't always need to wait for an angel donor to show up for these things to happen. As we all know, high school girl's wrestling is skyrocketing in popularity. At this rate, many more colleges will be adding women's wrestling in the very near future. And they will all somehow be able to make it work in their budgets. Maybe Penn State won't be one of them, but I'll skeptical that the lack of a millionaire benefactor will be the sole reason why.

A lot of the schools that add it will add it because it drives enrollment, which is revenue. that's not the case at Penn State. we turn plenty of qualified students away each year. Those spots taken up by women's wrestlers on scholarship are spots that would be filled by students paying full freight.

 

[creamery freak]

Before we jump into this. Has anyone checked to see if the women would like playing dodge ball?

 

[El-Jefe]

Ok, so you are assuming that women's wrestling would need to do things like "cover initial program start-up" and "annually cover present value of coach salaries" before it could be added as a new sport. I'm not sure why those things in particular would need to be covered, but regardless. I'm saying that if it's a money argument then there are other ways to offset the expense of adding women's wrestling. In particular, I picked out a current sport that has $4 million in annual losses.

As others have pointed out, the athletic department is a large budget number in a larger budget number. And the university is pondering expenses that make the cost of women's wrestling look like pocket change. For example, I bet we could find a VE item in this stadium renovation that would offset the start-up costs.

But I guess the point is simply that universities don't always need to wait for an angel donor to show up for these things to happen. As we all know, high school girl's wrestling is skyrocketing in popularity. At this rate, many more colleges will be adding women's wrestling in the very near future. And they will all somehow be able to make it work in their budgets. Maybe Penn State won't be one of them, but I'll skeptical that the lack of a millionaire benefactor will be the sole reason why.

Those things could happen theoretically, except PSU will never and cancel an existing sport to add a new one. Good, we're not Boise State.

And let's be real, they will never pull money from a football facility improvement.

Most schools across the country co-mingle their academic and athletics budgets. PSU Athletics receives zero money from the rest of the university. Short of raising it from donors, If not an angle, I don't see where else the money will come from -- and having worked with University Development, they don't have staff to commit to chasing some good idea that doesn't already have a pot of gold attached to it (unless of course it's the University President's good idea).

 

[Agoodnap]

The football stadium renovation is $750M for HALF a renovated stadium that will hold substantially fewer fans. Let that sink in for a moment. They are actually going forward with this project, which has not yet been brought before the full Board of Trustees, and commit this huge sum of money at the same time the University is bleeding money. In addition, Penn State has by far the lowest yield per accepted student in the Big Ten, and it's not close. Only way to keep filling seats is to lower the acceptance bar.

 

[BigFella235]

My two cents on it:
It would be a boon for the girls in PA who are coming up through the PIAA now if PSU started a program. It would also likely attract a few high profile candidates with coaching aspirations who want to sit under Cael’s learning tree from time to time. It’d probably help bring in more high level women’s wrestlers to the NLWC as well.

That said, it’s a very nuanced thing to start. As someone pointed out, Iowa really only added women’s wrestling because it was being sued into oblivion for Title IX issues. They also had to lure Clarissa Chun away from Sem with what was most likely a fat salary to undo some of the reservations women’s wrestlers have after the Alli Ragan debacle. Now, obviously PSU doesn’t have that issue to contend with. However, they’d be starting from scratch and PA is already behind the proverbial 8 ball with women’s wrestling as a state. The athletic budget is almost anyone’s guess right now, but Kraft was front row for the OTT finals so he got to see that the crowd stuck around for the women’s matches and there are a bunch of very talented women who could lead a program to success.

I’d love to see it happen, but I also understand it’s a complex thing. If I was fantasy casting a coach for them to hire, I’d probably lean towards someone like Helen Maroulis. She’s got Maryland roots and has been a high level athlete for years now. She’s also a bit more settled in life than some other women’s wrestlers. Were it to happen, I’d love to see like Amit and/or Kennedy come in to train at the NLWC to attract more high level women’s recruits, but that’s more so me injecting my own pipe dreams into the situation.

 

[Lyons212]

This is going to happen, and sooner than people think, IMO. If we don't have a women's team by 2030 I would be floored.
Also, startup costs are way less than $20 million. The facility already exists. You're looking at like $500,000 a year in scholarship costs TOPS. Coach salaries probably a number less than that. You'd be able to run the whole program each year for around $2 million, I'd think. think psu would probably want a $7-10 million fund for it.

Here is the problem, the program will cost $2,000,00 a year and have revenue of about $20,000, losing about $1,980,000 a year. The fact is most women's sports, draw very few fans.

 

[matter7172]

Here is the problem, the program will cost $2,000,00 a year and have revenue of about $20,000, losing about $1,980,000 a year. The fact is most women's sports, draw very few fans.

What about if women's season ticket holders jumped to the front of the waiting list for men's season tickets?

 

[Lyons212]

A lot of the schools that add it will add it because it drives enrollment, which is revenue. that's not the case at Penn State. we turn plenty of qualified students away each year. Those spots taken up by women's wrestlers on scholarship are spots that would be filled by students paying full freight.

Your right, colleges add sports to drive enrollment, this is especially true at the D3 level. I had 2 kids go to small private schools in PA, both have added football and wrestling in the last 10 years, the reason, to get more men on campus. Both sports combined bring about 125 men to the school that would have gone some where else. Very important when the school is 70% female.

 

[mhlarch]

I'd love to see a women's college team at PSU, but why not start with the NLWC and build from there? We have two women on the roster, at least those listed as part of the resident athlete program according to the website. And did any of them place at the trials? Lets add a few more quality women competitors at this level, and maybe a coach dedicated to them to get things going. Not only don't we have a women's college team, we don't appear to have much going on with the NLWC.

A few years ago there was an exhibition held at PSU (on an upstart streaming service....the name escapes me). Helen M. wrestled in that event and I seem to recall she was affiliated with the NLWC then all of a sudden she was with the Sunkist Kids. Anyone know why.....maybe a misunderstanding on my part, or my faulty memory. I just can't believe we don't have more high level women competitors. Maybe that is a function of no women's college team.

 

[Chris Watts]

A lot of the schools that add it will add it because it drives enrollment, which is revenue. that's not the case at Penn State. we turn plenty of qualified students away each year. Those spots taken up by women's wrestlers on scholarship are spots that would be filled by students paying full freight.

This argument never makes sense to me. School are going to add women's wrestling because the 25 more students at a ~$1-2 million annual loss will "drive enrollment"?

And yes, at PSU the 25 students would perhaps have been other students. But it's only a max of 9.9 additional scholarships at a 46,000 student university. It's a drop in the bucket, no?

 

[baccafarmer]

This is going to happen, and sooner than people think, IMO. If we don't have a women's team by 2030 I would be floored.
Also, startup costs are way less than $20 million. The facility already exists. You're looking at like $500,000 a year in scholarship costs TOPS. Coach salaries probably a number less than that. You'd be able to run the whole program each year for around $2 million, I'd think. think psu would probably want a $7-10 million fund for it.

Looking at the underlying economics of
College sports it is easy to conclude that within 2-5 years FB & BB will transition to an “employee model”. Everything else including all the Olympic sports will be discontinued at the college level. Club teams (unpaid athletes) will predominate and provide a limited level of entertainment. Organizations like the AAU, USOC, and others will take up those sports where Universities simply can’t pay the salaries. Bottom line is that in an age where athletes are employees, any sport that does not generate a positive cash flow will be shut down.

 

[Chris Watts]

Those things could happen theoretically, except PSU will never and cancel an existing sport to add a new one. Good, we're not Boise State.

And let's be real, they will never pull money from a football facility improvement.

Most schools across the country co-mingle their academic and athletics budgets. PSU Athletics receives zero money from the rest of the university. Short of raising it from donors, If not an angle, I don't see where else the money will come from -- and having worked with University Development, they don't have staff to commit to chasing some good idea that doesn't already have a pot of gold attached to it (unless of course it's the University President's good idea).

So different than Boise State. What I described was a theoretical cost savings for the athletic department by adding one sport and cutting in other areas. I know you know the specifics of Boise State better than I do.

I realize that what I was describing is not likely reality. I guess I just don't like that wrestling, whether men's or women's, always needs to find these rich benefactors and thousands of donors to survive. I'm still not buying that that is the only option for a multi-billion dollar university.

 

[Sleepylion]

Looking at the underlying economics of
College sports it is easy to conclude that within 2-5 years FB & BB will transition to an “employee model”. Everything else including all the Olympic sports will be discontinued at the college level. Club teams (unpaid athletes) will predominate and provide a limited level of entertainment. Organizations like the AAU, USOC, and others will take up those sports where Universities simply can’t pay the salaries. Bottom line is that in an age where athletes are employees, any sport that does not generate a positive cash flow will be shut down.

Sad, and probably true. 😢

 

[voltz99]

I have no information about the state of Lock Haven's athletic department and how they allocate funds.

Loch haven will be lucky to be in business in 10 years.

 

[horraybeer]

Penn State not having women's wrestling has nothing to do with Iowa.

Or lack of money..

Time to make that change and support the girls. The elite women wrestlers of the world are just entertaining to watch as the men imo.

Not even close.

 

[Pitchfork Rebel]

What about if women's season ticket holders jumped to the front of the waiting list for men's season tickets?

What about if we don't try to coerce people into buying a product?

 

[El-Jefe]

What about if women's season ticket holders jumped to the front of the waiting list for men's season tickets?

What could possibly go wrong there?

I mean, didn't we have guys buy season tickets at other schools so they'd be on those schools' lists for NCAA tickets?