WIN Rankings

[dunkej01]

finally something to talk about.....

https://www.win-magazine.com/2017/0...-earn-penn-state-wins-no-1-preseason-ranking/

PS- not bad for only 7 scoring wrestlers

 

[KidDagger]

So we're just gonna act like we don't c Suriano not ranked

 

[Nitt Fan]

So we're just gonna act like we don't c Suriano not ranked

Sounds like an item for the Rutgers board.

 

[jtothemfp]

I opened this post strictly for the WinMag LOLs

But then Mike Finn goes and wrecks it with his least mistake-ridden rankings in 6 years.

 

[BisbeeMike]

"Noone" ended up unranked, as did "Question Mark" at 133. Frankly, they are both underrated, as is "Who knows", our 141 pounder.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

#10 Iowa.... Ouch

 

[dunkej01]

I opened this post strictly for the WinMag LOLs

But then Mike Finn goes and wrecks it with his least mistake-ridden rankings in 6 years.

Preacher preach. Really did a nice job this time when compared to their past .....issues..ahem

 

[tikk10]

So we're just gonna act like we don't c Suriano not ranked

I'd give WIN a pass, it's been hard to find news about Suriano and that B1G transfer thing.

 

[RoarLions1]

I opened this post strictly for the WinMag LOLs

But then Mike Finn goes and wrecks it with his least mistake-ridden rankings in 6 years.

Hey jto...haven't looked at the rankings yet, maybe tonight. Appears you did at least a quick check...so no issues at all? or just fewer?

 

[pish69]

Hey jto...haven't looked at the rankings yet, maybe tonight. Appears you did at least a quick check...so no issues at all? or just fewer?

At a quick glance..rankings look great. Only problem I had is they didn't have anyone at 141 for us. Whether it's Cortez or Lee, one of them should be in there.

As Kid said above..Suriano wasn't in there either for some reason.

Keener 16th
Zain 1
Nolf 1
Cenzo 1
Hall 1
Bo 1
Cutch 7
Nevills 5

Seemed like they nailed our guys accept 141. Hopefully Keener can surprise us and get to 8th spot

 

[El-Jefe]

So we're just gonna act like we don't c Suriano not ranked

Didn't spend one second looking for anyone else at Rutgers either.

 

[jtothemfp]

Hey jto...haven't looked at the rankings yet, maybe tonight. Appears you did at least a quick check...so no issues at all? or just fewer?

It looks like the 'issues' are pretty forgivable:
- Suriano missing; I'm with Tikk, pass
- Alber, UNI at 133; IA Wrestle has quoted Schwab saying he will go 141, to make room for Rudy Yates at 133; not a terrible miss, if I'm being unnecessarily fair to Herr Finn. Side note: look how much Rudy Yates look like our Cenzo:

- Micah Jordan still at 149, but I'm not sure Tan Tom has been quoted anywhere about him going 157.
- Same, I think, with Tsirtsis & Zeke, who he has at 149
- He's got a couple surprisingly high bros, but, hey, it's preseason, and he'd already covered the returning AAs:

- 133 Bryan Lantry, Buffalo, #5
- 285 Youssif Hemida, Maryland, #7​

Weight Changes & Transfers he apparently paid attention to this summer:
125: NaTo,
133: Pletcher, Keener
141: McKenna
149: Kolodzik (I haven't read this elsewhere yet); Geo Martinez
157: Pantaleo
165: TeShan, Isaiah White
174: Daniel Lewis, Jacobe Smith

Returners from injury were pretty well covered as well. Clearly more #Effort applied this year.

 

[NittanyChris]

I kinda think Cutch should be just a tad higher than 7th. Also agree with pish69, either Cortez or N Lee shoud most certainly be in the top 20 at 141. It will all take care of itself however, once the season begins.

 

[jtothemfp]

I kinda think Cutch should be just a tad higher than 7th. Also agree with pish69, either Cortez or N Lee shoud most certainly be in the top 20 at 141. It will all take care of itself however, once the season begins.

Like many outlets, WINMag has a longstanding policy of not ranking TRFR (Nick Lee) in the preseason. And with Cortez' shoulder surgery, weight questions, Lee & Keener's presences, I can see staying away from ranking him.

I shall now head to the shower to wash all this #positive stank off me. Where Ohio State at? I need to feel some fresh H8!

 

[horraybeer]

Stopped reading after the NATO will drop back down to 125 after 2 seasons at 133. SMH.

 

[greenmanRD]

I kinda think Cutch should be just a tad higher than 7th. Also agree with pish69, either Cortez or N Lee shoud most certainly be in the top 20 at 141. It will all take care of itself however, once the season begins.

I don't think Lee should be ranked since he has not yet had a 141 match. I get the idea of projection, but preseason rankings should not be based on what they will look like at the end of the season imo.

 

[greenmanRD]

Stopped reading after the NATO will drop back down to 125 after 2 seasons at 133. SMH.

This seems like exactly what is happening though. D'oh, he's only been at 133 for 1 season.

 

[NittanyChris]

I don't think Lee should be ranked since he has not yet had a 141 match. I get the idea of projection, but preseason rankings should not be based on what they will look like at the end of the season imo.

I get the whole predictions vs preseason rankings thing. My point is that even a preseason ranking should include some analysis of a true freshman's talent given their HS performance, and all the events they wrestle after HS. So, I disagree with the premise that all freshman should be excluded simply because they have not had a college match yet.

 

[Real-Lion]

At a quick glance..rankings look great. Only problem I had is they didn't have anyone at 141 for us. Whether it's Cortez or Lee, one of them should be in there.

As Kid said above..Suriano wasn't in there either for some reason.

Keener 16th
Zain 1
Nolf 1
Cenzo 1
Hall 1
Bo 1
Cutch 7
Nevills 5

Seemed like they nailed our guys accept 141. Hopefully Keener can surprise us and get to 8th spot

Keener is going to be very good at 133...Much better then preseason ranking

 

[greenmanRD]

I get the whole predictions vs preseason rankings thing. My point is that even a preseason ranking should include some analysis of a true freshman's talent given their HS performance, and all the events they wrestle after HS. So, I disagree with the premise that all freshman should be excluded simply because they have not had a college match yet.

While I agree with you that outright exclusion is unfair, rankings will take a reasonable look a month or two into the season. I'm guessing if Flo does an article featuring freshmen at 141, Nick Lee will be included in such an article.

 

[BisbeeMike]

Why Suriano at 3rd behind Cruz?

 

[tomsc]

Why Suriano at 3rd behind Cruz?

Even though Suriano beat Cruz handily H2H, it's hard to not rank the defending NCAA champ ahead of someone who didn't compete in NCAA's

 

[NittanyChris]

I'm in the camp that Suriano should be ranked ahead of Cruz. In their only match, Suriano beat him very easily. It was not even as close as the score. That trumps the fact that Suriano got injured and did not compete in the NCAAs, where he likely would have beat him easily as well.

 

[greenmanRD]

I'm in the camp that Suriano should be ranked ahead of Cruz. In their only match, Suriano beat him very easily. It was not even as close as the score. That trumps the fact that Suriano got injured and did not compete in the NCAAs, where he likely would have beat him easily as well.

That's awfully presumptive, and while I agree that Suriano beating Cruz should hold some weight, Cruz also beat Gilman at NCAAs, something Suriano couldn't do healthy, and Cruz won the title.

 

[NittanyChris]

Bottom line is this: they had ONE head to head match and Suriano dominated it.
How they did against common opponents is always a far less reliable predictor of outcome.

 

[greenmanRD]

Bottom line is this: they had ONE head to head match and Suriano dominated it.
How they did against common opponents is always a far less reliable predictor of outcome.

Exactly, they had ONE head to head match, that's hardly a justifiable sample to by rule keep someone ahead of someone else regardless of how their seasons concluded. If they had wrestled more times and Suriano won them all, then I think your point would be far more valid.

Cruz finished last season with wins over Dance, Gilman and Lizak in the final month of the season. It was clear that he improved and wrestled better in March than he was wrestling when he faced Suriano in December and Lizak at the Scuffle. It's pretty standard to rank defending champs 1 or 2 based on the weight class.

I just don't see what the fuss is about. Ok, if Suriano is 2, then does Cruz's run to the NCAA title mean nothing in terms of rankings? Even though he beat the undefeated and near wire-to-wire #1? Even though he beat Joey Dance? (Both guys who were seeded ahead of Suriano).

 

[NittanyChris]

Exactly, they had ONE head to head match, that's hardly a justifiable sample to by rule keep someone ahead of someone else regardless of how their seasons concluded. If they had wrestled more times and Suriano won them all, then I think your point would be far more valid.

Cruz finished last season with wins over Dance, Gilman and Lizak in the final month of the season. It was clear that he improved and wrestled better in March than he was wrestling when he faced Suriano in December and Lizak at the Scuffle. It's pretty standard to rank defending champs 1 or 2 based on the weight class.

I just don't see what the fuss is about. Ok, if Suriano is 2, then does Cruz's run to the NCAA title mean nothing in terms of rankings? Even though he beat the undefeated and near wire-to-wire #1? Even though he beat Joey Dance? (Both guys who were seeded ahead of Suriano).

Absolutely could not disagree more. That both guys were seeded ahead of Suriano is a ridiculous argument, that was only so because of his injury.
Prior to his injury, Suriano was CLEARLY the 2nd best wrestler at 125. It wasn't even close.
If they wrestled today, and Suriano was healthy, I'd bet the bank on Suriano. Would you bet on Cruz?
I didn't think so.

 

[pawrestlersintn]

Absolutely could not disagree more. That both guys were seeded ahead of Suriano is a ridiculous argument, that was only so because of his injury.
Prior to his injury, Suriano was CLEARLY the 2nd best wrestler at 125. It wasn't even close.
If they wrestled today, and Suriano was healthy, I'd bet the bank on Suriano. Would you bet on Cruz?
I didn't think so.

You didn't wait for an answer.

 

[Ja1339]

Anyone surprised Marinelli isn't ranked higher than 16 at 65?

 

[KidDagger]

Absolutely could not disagree more. That both guys were seeded ahead of Suriano is a ridiculous argument, that was only so because of his injury.
Prior to his injury, Suriano was CLEARLY the 2nd best wrestler at 125. It wasn't even close.
If they wrestled today, and Suriano was healthy, I'd bet the bank on Suriano. Would you bet on Cruz?
I didn't think so.

RU fan here, Rankers got it right with 2. Cruz and 3. Suriano to start the season. Soriano won the H2H vs Cruz but Cruz went on an absolute tear to finish the season and beat Gilman. He's earned the higher ranking. Do I believe Suriano will beat Cruz the next meeting? Yes. Do I think Suriano will win NCAA this year, yes. But, for now, I'd have to agree with how the top 3 are ranked for 125.

 

[RoarLions1]

Did I miss Chad Red? Also thought Renda was going 197.

 

[tikk10]

RU fan here, Rankers got it right with 2. Cruz and 3. Suriano to start the season. Soriano won the H2H vs Cruz but Cruz went on an absolute tear to finish the season and beat Gilman. He's earned the higher ranking. Do I believe Suriano will beat Cruz the next meeting? Yes. Do I think Suriano will win NCAA this year, yes. But, for now, I'd have to agree with how the top 3 are ranked for 125.

Dunno if it's been mentioned but it's Interesting that Cruz and Suriano won't face each other, most likely, until the NCAAs. Rutgers goes to Midlands, Lehigh (usually) to Scuffle and no dual scheduled. Cruz also won't face NaTo before the NCAAs unless schedules change. Cruz also won't face Lizak until mid-March.

Meanwhile Suriano and NaTo and Lizak will face each other multiple times before NCAAs. With the lighter schedule, it's reasonable that Cruz (only two losses last year, Suriano and Lizak) could go undefeated and ranked 1, meaning that the better two of Suriano, Lizak, and NaTo could be 2 and 3 seeds, even if one of them is undefeated.

 

[slushhead]

Dunno if it's been mentioned but it's Interesting that Cruz and Suriano won't face each other, most likely, until the NCAAs. Rutgers goes to Midlands, Lehigh (usually) to Scuffle and no dual scheduled. Cruz also won't face NaTo before the NCAAs unless schedules change. Cruz also won't face Lizak until mid-March.

Meanwhile Suriano and NaTo and Lizak will face each other multiple times before NCAAs. With the lighter schedule, it's reasonable that Cruz (only two losses last year, Suriano and Lizak) could go undefeated and ranked 1, meaning that the better two of Suriano, Lizak, and NaTo could be 2 and 3 seeds, even if one of them is undefeated.

I guess I'm okay with that. Cruz is the defending champ and is thus entitled to #1 until he is beaten, regardless of his schedule. I'm betting NaTo will wrestle part-time at 125 and, therefore, may not have as tough a schedule as it would appear on paper.

That's where things would get hairy, IMO. Hypothetically, what would be a fair way to seed him at B1Gs relative to Suriano and Lizak if, say, he is undefeated, has sat out scheduled matchups against them, and one of them has a single loss -- to the other? I know how I would do it . . . which tells me the opposite would actually be done.

I like NaTo, but he hasn't been in the finals since 2015, even after moving to a more comfortable weight in 2017. Coming back down to 125, I feel like he needs to prove himself all over again to be ranked above Cruz, Lizak*, and Suriano, who proved their mettle at the weight just last season.

*However, I also expect Lizak to struggle with stamina at 125.

 

[caliPSUfan]

If Cruz goes undefeated then he's #1, deservedly so as the returning champ with no losses regardless of who he does or does not face...

After that, if Tomo doesn't face Lizak or Suriano because of limited action, he should be the three seed at B1Gs and they'll sort it out there.

 

[tikk10]

I guess I'm okay with that. Cruz is the defending champ and is thus entitled to #1 until he is beaten, regardless of his schedule. I'm betting NaTo will wrestle part-time at 125 and, therefore, may not have as tough a schedule as it would appear on paper.

That's where things would get hairy, IMO. Hypothetically, what would be a fair way to seed him at B1Gs relative to Suriano and Lizak if, say, he is undefeated, has sat out scheduled matchups against them, and one of them has a single loss -- to the other? I know how I would do it . . . which tells me the opposite would actually be done.

I like NaTo, but he hasn't been in the finals since 2015, even after moving to a more comfortable weight in 2017. Coming back down to 125, I feel like he needs to prove himself all over again to be ranked above Cruz, Lizak*, and Suriano, who proved their mettle at the weight just last season.

*However, I also expect Lizak to struggle with stamina at 125.

I see Lizak as a tier below too but he did get to the finals and did beat Cruz earlier in the season, so he could surprise. But I don't seeing him beating either NaTo or Suriano; it's merely possible.

I can also see NaTo ducking both guys in the duals, though he might face Lizak at the Cliff Keen early in the season.

Seems to me that the best case scenario for Penn State would be for Cruz to get the 1 seed and Suriano and NaTo, seeded 2/3, on Friday night with NaTo having to make weight again. The cut seems like it's an issue for him. His only two losses the last two seasons came late to guys he'd previously beaten but who had better gas tanks on Friday night.

 

[El-Jefe]

Cruz is maybe ranked #1 if he's undefeated, but he's not necessarily the #1 seed.

An undefeated B10 champ will have at least 3 wins over Lizak + (Tomasello or Suriano). Cruz might face Lizak at the Scuffle and might face Piccinnini at Journeyman.

That seems like a strength of schedule edge for the B10 champ. That plus previous year's results supposedly don't factor into current year's seeds.

 

[slushhead]

Cruz is maybe ranked #1 if he's undefeated, but he's not necessarily the #1 seed.

An undefeated B10 champ will have at least 3 wins over Lizak + (Tomasello or Suriano). Cruz might face Lizak at the Scuffle and might face Piccinnini at Journeyman.

That seems like a strength of schedule edge for the B10 champ. That plus previous year's results supposedly don't factor into current year's seeds.

I thought the Goofers were going to that new duals tourney in Florida instead of the Scuffle . . .

NaTo -- if he sits a lot during the regular season -- could be an undefeated B1G champ with only a single win (or two, if he is seeded #2 or #3 in that tourney) over Suriano or Lizak.

If Suriano or Lizak were the undefeated B1G champ, yes, the winner likely has 2 or 3 wins over the other B1G guys . . . and I'll trust your take on NCAA seeding, as my instincts on that subject are pretty bad.
[Insert Jim Gibbons meme here.]

 

[El-Jefe]

I thought the Goofers were going to that new duals tourney in Florida instead of the Scuffle . . .

NaTo -- if he sits a lot during the regular season -- could be an undefeated B1G champ with only a single win (or two, if he is seeded #2 or #3 in that tourney) over Suriano or Lizak.

If Suriano or Lizak were the undefeated B1G champ, yes, the winner likely has 2 or 3 wins over the other B1G guys . . . and I'll trust your take on NCAA seeding, as my instincts on that subject are pretty bad.
[Insert Jim Gibbons meme here.]

You might be right about the Goofers' schedule, not something I care that much about (sorry, too easy!).

In recent years we've seen a one-loss Brewer get the 13 seed, and an unbeaten Carter get the 4 seed (albeit after an injury-shortened season -- though all of his matches were in the run-up to March).

If Cruz and Tomasello are both unbeaten, with Tomasello facing tougher competition but fewer matches, that'll be an interesting seeding call.

BTW, I wouldn't rule out Piccinnini getting the 3 ahead of the B10 runner-up, if his only loss all season is to an undefeated Cruz.