16 Million Ton of supplies to Soviet Army helped them win the Eastern Front.

[Aardvark86]

$11 million dollars worth of aid.

Enough food to feed all Soviet soldiers for 1-full year.

Trucks galore which helped them tremendously amongst other things.

That supply route logistically through Iran, engineered by the Allies, was a thing of beauty!

Battle of Kursk be damned.

Let the discussion begin!

That and a willingness to shoot anybody who took a step backwards in the back.

 

[Aardvark86]

I lived in the former Soviet Union in the early 90’s. It was amazing how much pride the people felt for their fallen WWII hero’s. Truly amazing in fact when you realized that they knew their government was an abject failure. I heard some amazing stories from some of those folks.

Leningrad 1989. Visiting the mass graves is pretty stunning.

 

[WestSideLion]

Well the Soviets did invade Poland and kill hundreds of thousands of Polish people to start WW2. This is of course after agreeing to split Poland with Hitler whose invasion started WW2.

Our history books imply that the war was started with the steamrolling of France. That is incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

Not much different from Germany at that time.

Supplying an army that was an aggressor and subsequently took over the entire region... it is questionable at best.

LdN

I don’t recall any history books saying France was the start of WW2. It’s fair to say we were taught history with a Western European slant.

The sheer volume of loss of life in Eastern Europe during WW2 is staggering. Russia lost 30 million. Germany lost about 4 million soldiers on the Eastern Front. I’m sure Poland suffered tremendously both during the invasion and subsequently as Germany conscripted its soldiers.

The US lost about 300,000 in total in WW2. Those are staggering and tragic numbers on any level. The fact that Germany and Russia lost orders of magnitude more just underlines the tragic scale behind that conflict.

Sadly, Stalin killed many more after the war.

 

[LionJim]

Sadly, Stalin killed many more after the war.

Also, any Soviet soldier who was captured during the war was afterwards sent into the Gulag.

EDIT: I did a little research on Stalin's Order 270 of August 16, 1941. Basically, any Soviet soldier taken prisoner was declared an enemy of the people right then and there. It doesn't take too much imagination to picture the repercussions to their families back home.

 

[LionJim]

This is from Solzhenitsyn, I forget from exactly where. Once there was some collective meeting and someone stood up and proposed that everyone stand to applaud Comrade Stalin, who wasn't present. Everyone rises clapping, but nobody has the nerve to be the first one to stop. It goes on and on and on, people fainting, until someone calls an end to it, at which everyone sits down, exhausted. Of course, the guy who called an end to it got sent to the Gulag.

 

[WDLion]

Allied supplies,but Soviet Blood. Russia lost about 20 million....US 400,000.

The Russians lost 44,900 tanks during the war. They were building 1300 per month. Germany deployed over 70 divisions on the eastern front, the Russians even more. Many don't realize the huge difference in the scale fighting on the eastern front.

 

[WestSideLion]

$11 million dollars worth of aid.

Enough food to feed all Soviet soldiers for 1-full year.

Trucks galore which helped them tremendously amongst other things.

That supply route logistically through Iran, engineered by the Allies, was a thing of beauty!

Battle of Kursk be damned.

Let the discussion begin!

I’ve been watching the PBS series “Nazi Mega Weapons” on Netflix. It’s staggering the scale with which Russia and the US threw resources at the war effort. It’s enough to wonder what Hitler was thinking in that invasion, but we know he was a crazy psychopath.

In one episode on German tanks, they stated that while the German Tigers were astounding engineering masterpieces, they could only produce about 5,000 by the end of the war.

Russia on the other hand, cranked out 50,000 T-37 tanks and just threw superior numbers of inferior tanks at the Germans. The US did the same thing and managed to upgrade things just enough to counter the Tiger in combat.

Either way, it just shows the huge scale at which these powers could operate under at the end of the war. In hindsight, it was inevitable that they’d get into a Cold War arms race. It’s all they knew at that point.

 

[psuno1]

I was wondering today about how many bullets the US used in WWII... I googled it, and came up with this:

Lt. Gen. Levin H. Campbell, Jr., Chief of Ordnance from 1942 to 1946, proudly had this to say:

From Pearl Harbor to V-J Day the Industry-Ordnance team furnished to the Army and 43 foreign nations 47 billion rounds of small arms ammunition, approximately 11 million tons of artillery ammunition, more than 12 million rifles and carbines, approximately 750,000 artillery pieces and 3/2 million military vehicles.

I think this is about 35 million bullets for each of the 1347 days that the US was involved in the war

That made somebody Rich, I wonder who.

 

[ILLINOISLION]

Yes they did avoid it.

I still stick by what I said, most Americans probably believe WW2 started with Germany crossing the Maginot line.

A poll of non-scholars would be interesting to see if I was right.

LdN

HA - Most Americans have no clue what the Maginot line was!

 

[kijanacat]

Most historians consider the conflict a regional dustup until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and Germany declared war on the US two days later. those two things made it a truly WORLD war.

 

[Art]

I don’t recall any history books saying France was the start of WW2. It’s fair to say we were taught history with a Western European slant.

The sheer volume of loss of life in Eastern Europe during WW2 is staggering. Russia lost 30 million. Germany lost about 4 million soldiers on the Eastern Front. I’m sure Poland suffered tremendously both during the invasion and subsequently as Germany conscripted its soldiers.

The US lost about 300,000 in total in WW2. Those are staggering and tragic numbers on any level. The fact that Germany and Russia lost orders of magnitude more just underlines the tragic scale behind that conflict.

Sadly, Stalin killed many more after the war.

Roughly 6mm Poles died during World War II, of whom 3mm were Polish Jews.

The Germans considered Poles to be sub-human, so they did not enlist large numbers of ethnic Poles into the Wehrmacht. Most conscripted Polish citizens were Volksdeutsche (ethnic Germans), Ukrainians, and Belarussians. That did not stop the Germans from transferring nearly 2mm Poles to Germany as forced laborers, where they existed under absolutely brutal conditions. It also didn't stop the Germans from kidnapping about 200,000 Polish children who exhibited Aryan characteristics and giving them to German families. Of these, only about 30,000 ever returned to Poland after the war.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

That made somebody Rich, I wonder who.

Your question implies a singular entity. I believe that multiple entities became rich over this.

 

[Art]

Most historians consider the conflict a regional dustup until the Japanese bombed Pearl Harbor and Germany declared war on the US two days later. those two things made it a truly WORLD war.

The Chinese might differ with that assessment. Estimates of Chinese deaths vary widely, from 10mm-20mm.

 

[Metal Mike]

On the US entry into WWI, it was not one thing but a series of events that led up to President Wilson asking for a declaration of war. We tend to think of one big event like Pearl Harbor and the US entry into WW2 but WW1 was different there was no one big thing. It was a series of ship sinkings that led to several protests to Germany. The Germans then pulled back on unrestricted submarine warfare. Then the Russia Army collapsed, the Tsar was overthrown and everyone was concerned that German would turn her full might against the West. The Germans started unrestricted submarine warfare again in a gamble to starve England. The Zimmerman Note added to fire. There are more that I forget but it was no one thing.

 

[PSUPride1]

Well the Soviets did invade Poland and kill hundreds of thousands of Polish people to start WW2. This is of course after agreeing to split Poland with Hitler whose invasion started WW2.

Our history books imply that the war was started with the steamrolling of France. That is incorrect.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_invasion_of_Poland

Not much different from Germany at that time.

Supplying an army that was an aggressor and subsequently took over the entire region... it is questionable at best.

LdN

And then did nothing when the Polish people in Warsaw rose up again against Germany. I'm reading Churchill's memoirs on WWII and Stalin was a disgrace in every way.

 

[Schizophrenic_MackDaddy]

Yes. I'm not under any illusions about Stalin. (Reading Solzhenitsyn is an education in itself.) If we're here to debate whether or not we should have helped the USSR back then, whether or not we should have let them deal with Hitler on their own, I'll pass. I'll stick to discussing what did happen instead of discussing alternative history.

WHAT DID HAPPEN?!?

Well, (God Bless) America didn't declare war on Germany until December 11, 1941 (and, only AFTER Germany declared war on America).

That's usually omitted from the history books, too.

And, it took (God Bless) America until July, 1943 to invade Sicily.

 

[LionJim]

That's usually omitted from the history books, too.

No, it’s not. Every book I’ve read on the subject says exactly what you just posted.

 

[cment]

Also, most Americans think the US entered WW I because of the sinking of the Lusitania, which was two years before the actual US entry. The more proximate cause was a letter from Germany to Mexico promising the return of lost territory if Mexico joined the war on the side of the Central Powers.

So the idea was to pin down US forces here at home and stalling US efforts in Europe or am I incorrect?[/QUOTE]

You can add Mexico's oil as a big part.

 

[NittPicker]

WHAT DID HAPPEN?!?

Well, (God Bless) America didn't declare war on Germany until December 11, 1941 (and, only AFTER Germany declared war on America).

That's usually omitted from the history books, too.

And, it took (God Bless) America until July, 1943 to invade Sicily.

If Germany hadn't declared was on the US first here's no telling when we would have entered the war in Europe. People were pissed at Japan due to the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor but Germany had yet to do anything so blatant. Also at the time, for some odd reason there was a fair amount of sympathy for Germany here. Maybe it was because the utter depravity of the Nazis had yet to be fully known. In any case, the US would have likely entered the war in Europe anyway and the Nazis simply sped up the process.

 

[LionJim]

If Germany hadn't declared was on the US first here's no telling when we would have entered the war in Europe. People were pissed at Japan due to the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor but Germany had yet to do anything so blatant. Also at the time, for some odd reason there was a fair amount of sympathy for Germany here. Maybe it was because the utter depravity of the Nazis had yet to be fully known. In any case, the US would have likely entered the war in Europe anyway and the Nazis simply sped up the process.

You had people like Lindbergh playing the “not our war” tune.

 

[Brian LB-U]

For those interested, Anthony Beevor wrote a terrific book on the Battle of Stalingrad (linked below). The scope is mind blowing.

Amazon product ASIN 0140284583

 

[jimdavis40]

Remember The Great General George Patton didn't trust the Russians and wanted to invade them while we had our troops already in Europe. Patton enjoyed war to much but he was also smart enough to see what the Russians were all about.

 

[Art]

WHAT DID HAPPEN?!?

Well, (God Bless) America didn't declare war on Germany until December 11, 1941 (and, only AFTER Germany declared war on America).

That's usually omitted from the history books, too.

And, it took (God Bless) America until July, 1943 to invade Sicily.

There was this minor matter of clearing the Germans out of North Africa first, more specifically Tunisia. Or did you expect the Allies to mount an invasion of Sicily from Great Britain? Perhaps you should look into British attempts to relieve Malta to see ho that might have turned out.

For someone who professes to read a lot, you don't read a lot.

 

[Art]

Remember The Great General George Patton didn't trust the Russians and wanted to invade them while we had our troops already in Europe. Patton enjoyed war to much but he was also smart enough to see what the Russians were all about.

How did invading Russia turn out for the Germans?

 

[PSUPride1]

How did invading Russia turn out for the Germans?

Or Napoleon.

 

[LionJim]

There was this minor matter of clearing the Germans out of North Africa first, more specifically Tunisia. Or did you expect the Allies to mount an invasion of Sicily from Great Britain? Perhaps you should look into British attempts to relieve Malta to see ho that might have turned out.

For someone who professes to read a lot, you don't read a lot.

I'm really not any kind of expert on the Tunisian Campaign, so its Wiki page was hugely informative. Good read.

 

[WestSideLion]

Remember The Great General George Patton didn't trust the Russians and wanted to invade them while we had our troops already in Europe. Patton enjoyed war to much but he was also smart enough to see what the Russians were all about.

That would have been a mistake, in my opinion. Russia turned to brutal tactics toward its own people to win the war. Even Japan didn’t stoop to that level. It’s hard to defeat a country that would kill its own troops as freely as an enemy.

Russia had incredible scale and vastness at that point. There’s no way an invasion ends well for the US. See Germany a few years earlier. They had geography and surprise working in their favor.

 

[Roar More]

The vast size of the USSR & its harsh winters were allies for them as well.

Also, they only had to really fight on one front, had a largely tactical air force (no heavy bombers), and virtually no navy. They were overwhelmingly a land force that had to overcome the Axis forces and Stalin's paranoia in order to succeed. They did so with a lot of unacknowledged Allied help. And Stalin's paranoia made the allied task harder because Stalin would not permit allied air forces to land in Soviet territory.

 

[Roar More]

Oh hell, Napoleon knew that!

Well, eventually he did.

 

[81b&w]

is Michigan next?

 

[Roar More]

Really? Please provide some evidence of this to support your claim. I don't read a lot of WW II history books these days (almost never), but I've read quite a few over the years. I can't remember a history book that I ever read which indicated or implied that WW II "was started with the steamrolling of France."

History books that I've read generally list the following as being the actions that started WW II:

1. the German Anschluss
2. the Treaty of Munich
3. German invasion of Czechoslovakia (which directly contradicted what Hitler had claimed during the negotiations for the Treaty of Munich)
4. the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact between Germany and Russia
5. Germany invades Poland
6. Britain and France declare war on Germany, but provide Poland with little to no assistance
7. Russia invades Poland
8. Germany invades Denmark and Norway
9. Germany invades Holland and Belgium
10. Germany invades Luxembourg and France


So that's 9 major steps that took place before German forces invaded and defeated France.

Again, while I don't read many WW II history books these days, I think you'd be hard pressed to find any such book that states or implies that WW II started with the invasion and defeat of France by Germany.

Add to the list the militarization of the Rhineland, German involvement in the Spanish Civil War, harsh terms in the Treaty of Versailles and the Italian invasion of Ethiopia.

 

[Roar More]

Stalin also killed a lot prior to the war. The Russians nearly lost because of Stalin's purging of the officer corps.

 

[Roar More]

WHAT DID HAPPEN?!?

Well, (God Bless) America didn't declare war on Germany until December 11, 1941 (and, only AFTER Germany declared war on America).

That's usually omitted from the history books, too.

And, it took (God Bless) America until July, 1943 to invade Sicily.

Well, there was the invasions of North Africa and Guadalcanal did take place before that. What exactly is your point?

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

That would have been a mistake, in my opinion. Russia turned to brutal tactics toward its own people to win the war. Even Japan didn’t stoop to that level. It’s hard to defeat a country that would kill its own troops as freely as an enemy.

Russia had incredible scale and vastness at that point. There’s no way an invasion ends well for the US. See Germany a few years earlier. They had geography and surprise working in their favor.

Great post! I’m not certain that I agree that a US invasion wouldn’t have been successful but I am certain that Stalin turned to “brutal tactics” towards his own people. Actually, Stalin’s tactics against the Russian people may have been the tipping point in the Ameican’s Favor.

 

[WestSideLion]

Great post! I’m not certain that I agree that a US invasion wouldn’t have been successful but I am certain that Stalin turned to “brutal tactics” towards his own people. Actually, Stalin’s tactics against the Russian people may have been the tipping point in the Ameican’s Favor.

Let’s agree that the cost of victory against Russia would have been so staggering that it would’ve changed US history for the (far) worse. How many of us wouldn’t be here today if the war lasted another 3-4 years and cost 2 million more US lives? Not to mention that our other allies may have turned on us for fear that they’d be the next conquest!

 

[ILLINOISLION]

Let’s agree that the cost of victory against Russia would have been so staggering that it would’ve changed US history for the (far) worse. How many of us wouldn’t be here today if the war lasted another 3-4 years and cost 2 million more US lives? Not to mention that our other allies may have turned on us for fear that they’d be the next conquest!

The cost would have been staggering because the massive military strength of the United States.....the navy.....would have been pretty much a non-factor.

Ground forces vs. ground forces, Russia with the home field advantage. The industrial capacity of the United States would eventually have been overwhelming, but the human cost would have been devastating.

 

[Art]

Let’s agree that the cost of victory against Russia would have been so staggering that it would’ve changed US history for the (far) worse. How many of us wouldn’t be here today if the war lasted another 3-4 years and cost 2 million more US lives? Not to mention that our other allies may have turned on us for fear that they’d be the next conquest!

Unlikely that the British and French would have turned on the US, The British were certainly under no illusions about the Russians. But both countries were spent and tired of war, particularly the British as evidenced by Churchill's defeat at the polls in July 1945. The US would have had to largely go it alone and I can't even begin to imaginehow it would have prosecuted the conflict from a logistical standpoint. Furthermore, it would be fighting a two-front war, with Stalin releasing all of the troops in the Far East (those that ultimately rolled over the Japanese in Manchuria) to confront the Americans.

 

[Notsofastmyfriend21]

This is the best account, musically, I can think of...

 

[delcoLion]

If Germany hadn't declared was on the US first here's no telling when we would have entered the war in Europe. People were pissed at Japan due to the surprise attack on Pearl Harbor but Germany had yet to do anything so blatant. Also at the time, for some odd reason there was a fair amount of sympathy for Germany here. Maybe it was because the utter depravity of the Nazis had yet to be fully known. In any case, the US would have likely entered the war in Europe anyway and the Nazis simply sped up the process.

There was an incident before the US got into the war. In October 1941, a navy destroyer, USS Reuben James, escorting a convoy to Great Britain, was attacked and sunk by German U-boats. Most of the crew was lost. This was not as "blatant" as the Pearl Harbor attack but it was an act of war by the Germans.

 

[sunset43]

Allied supplies,but Soviet Blood. Russia lost about 20 million....US 400,000.

True and 80% of the German casualties were by the hands of the Russians. They also lost 100 million livestock. The Russians used their men like cannon fodder