2017 Baseball Hall of Fame inductees: Raines, J. Bagwell, I. Rodriguez
- Thread starter BobPSU92
- Start date
Interesting developments. Piazza, now Pudge, now Bags. Hard to keep out Barry and Clemens and their increase and somewhat lacking classes the next couple years probably means they get in.
I was a tad surprised by Vladdy. If Miguel Cabrera got hit by the proverbial bus right now, I think that most people would say Miggy is a high vote first ballot. Look at their comparative stats as they stand right now. Sure, Miggy has a triple crown but their stats are basically dead even.
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For those too lazy to look up
Miggy
9001 Plate Appearences
.321 BA
446 HR
1553 RBI
Vlad
9059 Plate Appearences
.318 BA
449 HR
1496 RBI
FREAKY CLOSE.
Miggy
9001 Plate Appearences
.321 BA
446 HR
1553 RBI
Vlad
9059 Plate Appearences
.318 BA
449 HR
1496 RBI
FREAKY CLOSE.
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I don't ever want to see Sosa, Bonds, McGuire, and to a lesser extent Clemens get in. Those three were an embarrassment to the sport.
Raines was always one of my favorite players...awesome for him.
The steroids/HOF issue is like politics. Reasonable people are gonna disagree on that forever.
I know Raines got 86% of the vote, but when I think of Tim Raines I don't think HOFer. In my mind I think six good years, decent hitter, and lots of stolen bases is kind of what I picture. I know he won one batting title but so did Al Oliver, and Bill Madlock won three.
.385 OBP on par with Gywnn. About the same amount of PAs, but 200 more runs for Raines. OBP and runs produced per PA are metrics that carry more weight these days than the traditional arbitrary counting stats that were used historically.
But Gaylord Perry is in. And he was a known, decades-long cheat.
In the case of PEDs--at the time, they were not against the rules. And if you read anything about the game in the 50s and 60s it was clear that a great many players, while mostly not using steroids, used a fair range of other kinds of drugs.
Look, I much prefer a Mike Schmidt, who didn't use, to a Barry Bonds. I'm not advocating PEDs at all. But a large part of the deal with Bonds and Clemens is that the press really doesn't like them--aside from any accusation of PEDs. PEDs give them the excuse.
You could get some votes for both of those guys, fairly. Oliver especially--he always struck me as very similar (though not as fast) to Richie Ashburn. I think Oliver has the highest number of hits for an eligible player not in the Hall. But he was quiet and never brought attention to himself.
For me the HOF has become more of the HOF for "decent" players NOT "great" players. Just about anyone is HOF 
except "crazy" Shilling. Another good pitcher. HOF ???? NO way.
Just my opinion.
except "crazy" Shilling. Another good pitcher. HOF ???? NO way.Just my opinion.
Evidently. When only Ty Cobb has won more batting titles, you hit .394 in a season which is the best since Ted Williams hit .406 in 1941, and your lifetime batting average is .338, I find few hitters on par with Tony Gwynn.
I think had Oliver played in a media mecca like New York or LA and not in cities the size of Pittsburgh and Montreal, and for the Texas Rangers, his HOF chances would be better.
If Tim "Rock" Raines is a HOFer then so is Dave Kingman, Fred McGriff, and Harold Baines. He was a good player but def not a HOFer.
How do you know Schmidt didn't use? How do we know a lot of players in the 70's and 80's didn't use? It's guess work at best. I think there was a lot more steroid use than we know about (can you say Reggie Jackson?), but it wasn't illegal back then so no one really paid that much attention. Doing something that wasn't illegal at the time shouldn't keep someone out of the HOF.
Body transformation is one clue. Most of Schmidt's power was in his wrists.
But I don't disagree with your last sentence (though I do think some of the steroid use might have been against Federal law at the time--but it was not against the rules, while throwing a spitball was).
His runs scored (1,571) and stolen base (808) totals were pretty good. Only Henderson, Brock and Cobb had more stolen bases. I'll admit to being biased towards guys who combine good RBI and runs scored numbers, but I don't think Raines is entirely undeserving.
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He didn't but it's common knowledge that greenies were in every MLB training table in the 70's and 80's. Schmidty said as much.
To me it's just become the Hall of Very good. When I think of the all time greats, I certainly don't think of these guys. Of course if you followed my script, you'd have a guy getting in about one every three years, which I guess wouldn't fly.......
Two things to remember. 1) The HoF was not founded to honor the best of the best. It was a privately funded business venture & tourist attraction to help boost a small town area that was down on it's luck from the depression. 2) The definition of fame is more about notoriety than elite skill. The definition of fame also has some roots in being known for good character, hence the antonym infamy.
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There's lesser percentage of players from the 80's (and onward) in the HOF then previous decades. Jason Stark posted a graph at some point that you should check out.
You're always going to glorify/be sentimental over older players who have the nostalgic flair to them... I wonder if we waited longer to vote on the players, if they would get in quicker than some do now.,,,
