9

[Obliviax]

Everyone has an opinion - here is article from one that was there.





Subject: Be Skeptical of Ken Burns documentary: The Vietnam War


Be skeptical of Ken Burns’ documentary: The Vietnam War
by Terry Garlock (Terry Garlock was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War)

Some months ago I and a dozen other local veterans attended a screening at the Woodruff Arts Center in Atlanta - preview of a new documentary on The Vietnam War by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick. The screening was a one hour summation of this 10-part documentary, 18 hours long.

The series began showing on PBS Sunday Sep 17, and with Burns’ renowned talent mixing photos, video clips and compelling mood music in documentary form, the series promises to be compelling to watch. That doesn’t mean it tells the truth.

For many years I have been presenting to high school classes a 90 minute session titled The Myths and Truths of the Vietnam War. One of my opening comments is, “The truth about Vietnam is bad enough without twisting it all out of shape with myths, half-truths and outright lies from the anti-war left.” The overall message to students is advising them to learn to think for themselves, be informed by reading one newspaper that leans left, one that leans right, and be skeptical of TV news.

Part of my presentation is showing them four iconic photos from Vietnam, aired publicly around the world countless times to portray America’s evil involvement in Vietnam. I tell the students “the rest of the story” excluded by the news media about each photo, then ask, “Wouldn’t you want the whole story before you decide for yourself what to think?”

One of those photos is the summary execution of a Viet Cong soldier in Saigon, capital city of South Vietnam, during the battles of the Tet Offensive in 1968. Our dishonorable enemy negotiated a cease-fire for that holiday then on that holiday attacked in about 100 places all over the country. Here’s what I tell students about the execution in the photo.

Enemy execution by South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police, 1968

“Before you decide what to think, here’s what the news media never told us. This enemy soldier had just been caught after he murdered a Saigon police officer, the officer’s wife, and the officer’s six children. The man pulling the trigger was Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police. His actions were supported by South Vietnamese law, and by the Geneva Convention since he was an un-uniformed illegal combatant. Now, you might still be disgusted by the summary execution, but wouldn’t you want all the facts before you decide what to think?”

The other one-sided stories about iconic photos I use are a nine year old girl named Kim Phuc, running down a road after her clothes were burned off by a napalm bomb, a lady kneeling by the body of a student at Kent State University, and a helicopter on top of a building with too many evacuees trying to climb aboard. Each one had only the half of the story told by news media during the war, the half that supported the anti-war narrative.

Our group of vets left the Ken Burns documentary screening . . . disappointed. As one example, all four of the photos I use were shown, with only the anti-war narrative. Will the whole truth be told in the full 18 hours? I have my doubts but we’ll see.

On the drive home with Mike King, Bob Grove and Terry Ernst, Ernst asked the other three of us who had been in Vietnam, “How does it make you feel seeing those photos and videos?” I answered, “I just wish for once they would get it right.”

Will the full documentary show John Kerry’s covert meeting in Paris with the leadership of the Viet Cong while he was still an officer in the US Naval Reserve and a leader in the anti-war movement? Will it show how Watergate crippled the Republicans and swept Democrats into Congress in 1974, and their rapid defunding of South Vietnamese promised support after Americans had been gone from Vietnam two years? Will it show Congress violating America’s pledge to defend South Vietnam if the North Vietnamese ever broke their pledge to never attack the south? Will it portray America’s shame in letting our ally fall, the tens of thousands executed for working with Americans, the hundreds of thousands who perished fleeing in overpacked, rickety boats, the million or so sent to brutal re-education camps? Will it show the North Vietnamese victors bringing an influx from the north to take over South Vietnam’s businesses, the best jobs, farms, all the good housing, or committing the culturally ruthless sin of bulldozing grave monuments of the South Vietnamese?

Will Burns show how the North Vietnamese took the city of Hue during the 1968 Tet Offensive, bringing lists of names of political leaders, business owners, doctors, nurses, teachers and other “enemies of the people,” and how they went from street to street, dragging people out of their homes, and that in the aftermath of the Battle of Hue, only when thousands of people were missing and the search began did they find the mass graves where they had been tied together and buried alive?

Will Burns show how America, after finally withdrawing from Vietnam and shamefully standing by while our ally was brutalized, did nothing while next door in Cambodia the Communists murdered two million of their own people as they tried to mimic Mao’s “worker paradise” in China?

Will Burns show how American troops conducted themselves with honor, skill and courage, never lost a major battle, and helped the South Vietnamese people in many ways like building roads and schools, digging wells, teaching improved farming methods and bringing medical care where it had never been seen before? Will he show that American war crimes, exaggerated by the left, were even more rare in Vietnam than in WWII? Will he show how a naïve young Jane Fonda betrayed her country with multiple radio broadcasts from North Vietnam, pleading with American troops to refuse their orders to fight, and calling American pilots and our President war criminals?

Color me doubtful about these and many other questions.

Being in a war doesn’t make anyone an expert on the geopolitical issues, it’s a bit like seeing history through a straw with your limited view. But my perspective has come from many years of reflection and absorbing a multitude of facts and opinions, because I was interested. My belief is that America’s involvement in Vietnam was a noble cause trying to stop the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia, while it had spread its miserable oppression in Eastern Europe and was gaining traction in Central America, Africa and other places around the world. This noble cause was, indeed, screwed up to a fare-thee-well by the Pentagon and White House, which multiplied American casualties.

The tone of the screening was altogether different, that our part in the war was a sad mistake. It seemed like Burns and Novick took photos, video clips, artifacts and interviews from involved Americans, South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, Viet Cong, civilians from south and north, reporters and others, threw it all in a blender to puree into a new form of moral equivalence. Good for spreading a thin layer of blame and innocence, not so good for finding the truth.

John M. Del Vecchio, author of The 13th Valley, a book considered by many Vietnam vets to be the literary touchstone of how they served and suffered in the jungles of Vietnam, has this to say about Burns’ documentary:” Pretending to honor those who served while subtly and falsely subverting the reasons and justifications for that service is a con man’s game . . . From a cinematic perspective it will be exceptional. Burns knows how to make great scenes. But through the lens of history it appears to reinforce a highly skewed narrative and to be an attempt to ossify false cultural memory. The lies and fallacies will be by omission, not by overt falsehoods.”

I expect to see American virtue minimized, American missteps emphasized, to fit the left-leaning narrative about the Vietnam War that, to this day, prevents our country from learning the real lessons from that war.

When we came home from Vietnam, we thought the country had lost its mind. Wearing the uniform was for fools too dimwitted to escape service. Burning draft cards, protesting the war in ways that insulted our own troops was cool, as was fleeing to Canada.

America’s current turmoil reminds me of those days, since so many of American traditional values are being turned upside down. Even saying words defending free speech on a university campus feels completely absurd, but here we are.

So Ken Burns’ new documentary on the Vietnam War promises to solidify him as the documentary king, breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good.

Perhaps you will prove me wrong. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.
-----------------------------------------
Terry Garlock lives in Peachtree City, GA. He was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War.

Good article. Fact is, its a freaking war. I always wonder how soldiers conform to any kind of rules. I mean, at some point, it is kill or be killed. Someone is shooting at me I've got no qualms about killing them and making them an example of the rest. Any semblance of organized Society has been destroyed. And that is both sides. Talk to any honest WW2 vet, or any other vet, and they'll tell you stuff that will make your hair bleed.

Nobody likes war. And VN may have been the worst in our history. It is also the first war fought in front of cameras and with worldwide publishing rights. On the other side, war is necessary. WW2 simply had to be fought. I would argue the war on terror has to be fought. There will be blood. Had the Nazi's won, would there be a Jew on the face of the planet? Would Japan simply killed any Chinese person that didn't agree with their culture?

It is in vogue to denounce and demonize war. I get it. Sadly, in some cases, it is absolutely necessary.

 

[Cosmos]

Everyone has an opinion - here is article from one that was there.





Subject: Be Skeptical of Ken Burns documentary: The Vietnam War


Be skeptical of Ken Burns’ documentary: The Vietnam War
by Terry Garlock (Terry Garlock was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War)

Some months ago I and a dozen other local veterans attended a screening at the Woodruff Arts Center in Atlanta - preview of a new documentary on The Vietnam War by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick. The screening was a one hour summation of this 10-part documentary, 18 hours long.

The series began showing on PBS Sunday Sep 17, and with Burns’ renowned talent mixing photos, video clips and compelling mood music in documentary form, the series promises to be compelling to watch. That doesn’t mean it tells the truth.

For many years I have been presenting to high school classes a 90 minute session titled The Myths and Truths of the Vietnam War. One of my opening comments is, “The truth about Vietnam is bad enough without twisting it all out of shape with myths, half-truths and outright lies from the anti-war left.” The overall message to students is advising them to learn to think for themselves, be informed by reading one newspaper that leans left, one that leans right, and be skeptical of TV news.

Part of my presentation is showing them four iconic photos from Vietnam, aired publicly around the world countless times to portray America’s evil involvement in Vietnam. I tell the students “the rest of the story” excluded by the news media about each photo, then ask, “Wouldn’t you want the whole story before you decide for yourself what to think?”

One of those photos is the summary execution of a Viet Cong soldier in Saigon, capital city of South Vietnam, during the battles of the Tet Offensive in 1968. Our dishonorable enemy negotiated a cease-fire for that holiday then on that holiday attacked in about 100 places all over the country. Here’s what I tell students about the execution in the photo.

Enemy execution by South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police, 1968

“Before you decide what to think, here’s what the news media never told us. This enemy soldier had just been caught after he murdered a Saigon police officer, the officer’s wife, and the officer’s six children. The man pulling the trigger was Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police. His actions were supported by South Vietnamese law, and by the Geneva Convention since he was an un-uniformed illegal combatant. Now, you might still be disgusted by the summary execution, but wouldn’t you want all the facts before you decide what to think?”

The other one-sided stories about iconic photos I use are a nine year old girl named Kim Phuc, running down a road after her clothes were burned off by a napalm bomb, a lady kneeling by the body of a student at Kent State University, and a helicopter on top of a building with too many evacuees trying to climb aboard. Each one had only the half of the story told by news media during the war, the half that supported the anti-war narrative.

Our group of vets left the Ken Burns documentary screening . . . disappointed. As one example, all four of the photos I use were shown, with only the anti-war narrative. Will the whole truth be told in the full 18 hours? I have my doubts but we’ll see.

On the drive home with Mike King, Bob Grove and Terry Ernst, Ernst asked the other three of us who had been in Vietnam, “How does it make you feel seeing those photos and videos?” I answered, “I just wish for once they would get it right.”

Will the full documentary show John Kerry’s covert meeting in Paris with the leadership of the Viet Cong while he was still an officer in the US Naval Reserve and a leader in the anti-war movement? Will it show how Watergate crippled the Republicans and swept Democrats into Congress in 1974, and their rapid defunding of South Vietnamese promised support after Americans had been gone from Vietnam two years? Will it show Congress violating America’s pledge to defend South Vietnam if the North Vietnamese ever broke their pledge to never attack the south? Will it portray America’s shame in letting our ally fall, the tens of thousands executed for working with Americans, the hundreds of thousands who perished fleeing in overpacked, rickety boats, the million or so sent to brutal re-education camps? Will it show the North Vietnamese victors bringing an influx from the north to take over South Vietnam’s businesses, the best jobs, farms, all the good housing, or committing the culturally ruthless sin of bulldozing grave monuments of the South Vietnamese?

Will Burns show how the North Vietnamese took the city of Hue during the 1968 Tet Offensive, bringing lists of names of political leaders, business owners, doctors, nurses, teachers and other “enemies of the people,” and how they went from street to street, dragging people out of their homes, and that in the aftermath of the Battle of Hue, only when thousands of people were missing and the search began did they find the mass graves where they had been tied together and buried alive?

Will Burns show how America, after finally withdrawing from Vietnam and shamefully standing by while our ally was brutalized, did nothing while next door in Cambodia the Communists murdered two million of their own people as they tried to mimic Mao’s “worker paradise” in China?

Will Burns show how American troops conducted themselves with honor, skill and courage, never lost a major battle, and helped the South Vietnamese people in many ways like building roads and schools, digging wells, teaching improved farming methods and bringing medical care where it had never been seen before? Will he show that American war crimes, exaggerated by the left, were even more rare in Vietnam than in WWII? Will he show how a naïve young Jane Fonda betrayed her country with multiple radio broadcasts from North Vietnam, pleading with American troops to refuse their orders to fight, and calling American pilots and our President war criminals?

Color me doubtful about these and many other questions.

Being in a war doesn’t make anyone an expert on the geopolitical issues, it’s a bit like seeing history through a straw with your limited view. But my perspective has come from many years of reflection and absorbing a multitude of facts and opinions, because I was interested. My belief is that America’s involvement in Vietnam was a noble cause trying to stop the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia, while it had spread its miserable oppression in Eastern Europe and was gaining traction in Central America, Africa and other places around the world. This noble cause was, indeed, screwed up to a fare-thee-well by the Pentagon and White House, which multiplied American casualties.

The tone of the screening was altogether different, that our part in the war was a sad mistake. It seemed like Burns and Novick took photos, video clips, artifacts and interviews from involved Americans, South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, Viet Cong, civilians from south and north, reporters and others, threw it all in a blender to puree into a new form of moral equivalence. Good for spreading a thin layer of blame and innocence, not so good for finding the truth.

John M. Del Vecchio, author of The 13th Valley, a book considered by many Vietnam vets to be the literary touchstone of how they served and suffered in the jungles of Vietnam, has this to say about Burns’ documentary:” Pretending to honor those who served while subtly and falsely subverting the reasons and justifications for that service is a con man’s game . . . From a cinematic perspective it will be exceptional. Burns knows how to make great scenes. But through the lens of history it appears to reinforce a highly skewed narrative and to be an attempt to ossify false cultural memory. The lies and fallacies will be by omission, not by overt falsehoods.”

I expect to see American virtue minimized, American missteps emphasized, to fit the left-leaning narrative about the Vietnam War that, to this day, prevents our country from learning the real lessons from that war.

When we came home from Vietnam, we thought the country had lost its mind. Wearing the uniform was for fools too dimwitted to escape service. Burning draft cards, protesting the war in ways that insulted our own troops was cool, as was fleeing to Canada.

America’s current turmoil reminds me of those days, since so many of American traditional values are being turned upside down. Even saying words defending free speech on a university campus feels completely absurd, but here we are.

So Ken Burns’ new documentary on the Vietnam War promises to solidify him as the documentary king, breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good.

Perhaps you will prove me wrong. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.
-----------------------------------------
Terry Garlock lives in Peachtree City, GA. He was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War.

Interesting perspective. Thanks for posting.

Wouldn't it be nice if Ken Burns pointed is high definition camera at the 'before and after' of the present day police shootings. You know, so as to get the whole story, just as with those photographs. After all, for every action there is an opposite and equal reaction. Yes?

Never get your information from a single source. That's part of critical thinking.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

tonight's episode was pretty tough to watch. the subjects covered included the My Lai Massacre, the sending of troops into Cambodia, the peace talks and the secret peace talks, and the shootings at Kent State. I had forgotten about the shootings at Jackson State.

 

[jimmysfly]

The problem with that narrative is that, after the North's victory, things didn't change. In fact, they are still one of the few communist countries left on the planet. I was there 18 months ago and the people of Hanoi, Danang, Hue and Quang Tri were not complimentary at all. Human rights are not something that is a priority.

I guess one could argue that he didn't have a choice after aligning with China but that doesn't hold water today, 50 years later. BTW, they are at odds with China over a military base the Chinese are building just off the VN coast.

Not sure what you're saying here about present day Vietnam, I'll address later.

Vietnam is in my blood, pops was a Marine, ma was one of those fleeing to the south in 54 via American cargo ships. Parents were damn happy to leave by 67. My Vietnamese heritage has a divisive surname and ethnicity to this day in VN: Sino-Vietnamese and Catholic. My mom's family will always be disgusted and regretful that Diem misled the South and Le Duan took Ho Chi Minh's power, which escalated a more more violent and aggressive strategy than Ho would ever lead, all covered in Burn's documentary.

I've been to VN several times over the past 20 years and even lived there for a year. Nearly every US veteran I've met that now visits Vietnam regularly finds the capacity of forgiveness by the Vietnamese a miracle & most of them are genuinely happy they returned. Communism really has little influence there now, more like corruption and hyper-capitalism - albeit held and practiced by once prouder communists (nepotism at its worst). The daily reality of bargaining for goods in VN, my experiences, suggests more truer capitalism than here in the US.

We bombed the living daylights out of VN, which included napalm and agent orange (some of its incredible environmental beauty will never recover, especially the soil). We repeatedly misunderstood, via utter arrogance & crippling indecisiveness, Vietnam's varying cultures and rich history, all of which worsened our involvement & inevitable loss. Long before France arrived, Vietnam taught Chinese & Mongolian empires brutal lessons. Vietnam has a long history of simply wanting what we gained before them, independence. Ironically, I should say sadly, Vietnam is a far older country than the US.

I don't think you should expect complimentary or thankful behavior when visiting Vietnam, that's borderline absurd. Any thorough research before visiting would have told you to be prepared for many challenges as it is still a 3rd World Country, a term I generally avoid. Vietnam has a ways to go and due to so many past, often unfair wars, not just with us or France, but Japan, China (many times), and Pol Pot's Cambodia.

I'm frankly shocked at the progress VN has made over the past 20 years. But the "progress" is coming with a heavy price: today's pollution in VN was not there in 99, my first visit. It's heartbreaking how polluted Hanoi and Saigon have become. I'm also concerned Vietnam and China will go to war again.

 

[junior1]

The war!

after 1965 there was no intention on the part of US leaders to win. Just to get out "with honor"!

 

[emrtmakesshiteup]

I watched the last hour (had to watch NCIS) because it was to go into 1970. I will tell you chills ran up my spine and it had nothing to do with the war scenes. I had know clue how bad things were in the USA at the time. We'd get to a fire base maybe every 2/3 weeks (one time out 64 days) and there would be Stars and Stripes newspapers lying around. I don't know remember if it mentioned any of the protests or not. I know the letters from family and friends did not mention anything. When I started PSU in 70, I had long hair, looked like any other 18 year old and quite frankly was treated like a hero. What worries me, is the fact the country is presently so divided, I can see things turning that horrible, if indeed it hasn't already begun. It may not be over one particular issue like the Viet Nam war but merely conservatism vs liberalism. I hope I am wrong but I am really concerned!

 

[RTLH]

Everyone has an opinion - here is article from one that was there.





Subject: Be Skeptical of Ken Burns documentary: The Vietnam War


Be skeptical of Ken Burns’ documentary: The Vietnam War
by Terry Garlock (Terry Garlock was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War)

Some months ago I and a dozen other local veterans attended a screening at the Woodruff Arts Center in Atlanta - preview of a new documentary on The Vietnam War by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick. The screening was a one hour summation of this 10-part documentary, 18 hours long.

The series began showing on PBS Sunday Sep 17, and with Burns’ renowned talent mixing photos, video clips and compelling mood music in documentary form, the series promises to be compelling to watch. That doesn’t mean it tells the truth.

For many years I have been presenting to high school classes a 90 minute session titled The Myths and Truths of the Vietnam War. One of my opening comments is, “The truth about Vietnam is bad enough without twisting it all out of shape with myths, half-truths and outright lies from the anti-war left.” The overall message to students is advising them to learn to think for themselves, be informed by reading one newspaper that leans left, one that leans right, and be skeptical of TV news.

Part of my presentation is showing them four iconic photos from Vietnam, aired publicly around the world countless times to portray America’s evil involvement in Vietnam. I tell the students “the rest of the story” excluded by the news media about each photo, then ask, “Wouldn’t you want the whole story before you decide for yourself what to think?”

One of those photos is the summary execution of a Viet Cong soldier in Saigon, capital city of South Vietnam, during the battles of the Tet Offensive in 1968. Our dishonorable enemy negotiated a cease-fire for that holiday then on that holiday attacked in about 100 places all over the country. Here’s what I tell students about the execution in the photo.

Enemy execution by South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police, 1968

“Before you decide what to think, here’s what the news media never told us. This enemy soldier had just been caught after he murdered a Saigon police officer, the officer’s wife, and the officer’s six children. The man pulling the trigger was Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police. His actions were supported by South Vietnamese law, and by the Geneva Convention since he was an un-uniformed illegal combatant. Now, you might still be disgusted by the summary execution, but wouldn’t you want all the facts before you decide what to think?”

The other one-sided stories about iconic photos I use are a nine year old girl named Kim Phuc, running down a road after her clothes were burned off by a napalm bomb, a lady kneeling by the body of a student at Kent State University, and a helicopter on top of a building with too many evacuees trying to climb aboard. Each one had only the half of the story told by news media during the war, the half that supported the anti-war narrative.

Our group of vets left the Ken Burns documentary screening . . . disappointed. As one example, all four of the photos I use were shown, with only the anti-war narrative. Will the whole truth be told in the full 18 hours? I have my doubts but we’ll see.

On the drive home with Mike King, Bob Grove and Terry Ernst, Ernst asked the other three of us who had been in Vietnam, “How does it make you feel seeing those photos and videos?” I answered, “I just wish for once they would get it right.”

Will the full documentary show John Kerry’s covert meeting in Paris with the leadership of the Viet Cong while he was still an officer in the US Naval Reserve and a leader in the anti-war movement? Will it show how Watergate crippled the Republicans and swept Democrats into Congress in 1974, and their rapid defunding of South Vietnamese promised support after Americans had been gone from Vietnam two years? Will it show Congress violating America’s pledge to defend South Vietnam if the North Vietnamese ever broke their pledge to never attack the south? Will it portray America’s shame in letting our ally fall, the tens of thousands executed for working with Americans, the hundreds of thousands who perished fleeing in overpacked, rickety boats, the million or so sent to brutal re-education camps? Will it show the North Vietnamese victors bringing an influx from the north to take over South Vietnam’s businesses, the best jobs, farms, all the good housing, or committing the culturally ruthless sin of bulldozing grave monuments of the South Vietnamese?

Will Burns show how the North Vietnamese took the city of Hue during the 1968 Tet Offensive, bringing lists of names of political leaders, business owners, doctors, nurses, teachers and other “enemies of the people,” and how they went from street to street, dragging people out of their homes, and that in the aftermath of the Battle of Hue, only when thousands of people were missing and the search began did they find the mass graves where they had been tied together and buried alive?

Will Burns show how America, after finally withdrawing from Vietnam and shamefully standing by while our ally was brutalized, did nothing while next door in Cambodia the Communists murdered two million of their own people as they tried to mimic Mao’s “worker paradise” in China?

Will Burns show how American troops conducted themselves with honor, skill and courage, never lost a major battle, and helped the South Vietnamese people in many ways like building roads and schools, digging wells, teaching improved farming methods and bringing medical care where it had never been seen before? Will he show that American war crimes, exaggerated by the left, were even more rare in Vietnam than in WWII? Will he show how a naïve young Jane Fonda betrayed her country with multiple radio broadcasts from North Vietnam, pleading with American troops to refuse their orders to fight, and calling American pilots and our President war criminals?

Color me doubtful about these and many other questions.

Being in a war doesn’t make anyone an expert on the geopolitical issues, it’s a bit like seeing history through a straw with your limited view. But my perspective has come from many years of reflection and absorbing a multitude of facts and opinions, because I was interested. My belief is that America’s involvement in Vietnam was a noble cause trying to stop the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia, while it had spread its miserable oppression in Eastern Europe and was gaining traction in Central America, Africa and other places around the world. This noble cause was, indeed, screwed up to a fare-thee-well by the Pentagon and White House, which multiplied American casualties.

The tone of the screening was altogether different, that our part in the war was a sad mistake. It seemed like Burns and Novick took photos, video clips, artifacts and interviews from involved Americans, South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, Viet Cong, civilians from south and north, reporters and others, threw it all in a blender to puree into a new form of moral equivalence. Good for spreading a thin layer of blame and innocence, not so good for finding the truth.

John M. Del Vecchio, author of The 13th Valley, a book considered by many Vietnam vets to be the literary touchstone of how they served and suffered in the jungles of Vietnam, has this to say about Burns’ documentary:” Pretending to honor those who served while subtly and falsely subverting the reasons and justifications for that service is a con man’s game . . . From a cinematic perspective it will be exceptional. Burns knows how to make great scenes. But through the lens of history it appears to reinforce a highly skewed narrative and to be an attempt to ossify false cultural memory. The lies and fallacies will be by omission, not by overt falsehoods.”

I expect to see American virtue minimized, American missteps emphasized, to fit the left-leaning narrative about the Vietnam War that, to this day, prevents our country from learning the real lessons from that war.

When we came home from Vietnam, we thought the country had lost its mind. Wearing the uniform was for fools too dimwitted to escape service. Burning draft cards, protesting the war in ways that insulted our own troops was cool, as was fleeing to Canada.

America’s current turmoil reminds me of those days, since so many of American traditional values are being turned upside down. Even saying words defending free speech on a university campus feels completely absurd, but here we are.

So Ken Burns’ new documentary on the Vietnam War promises to solidify him as the documentary king, breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good.

Perhaps you will prove me wrong. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.
-----------------------------------------
Terry Garlock lives in Peachtree City, GA. He was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War.

Ken Burns documentary does not bring out more truth or fact or myth than any others that have been produced.

I had a history professor in college (the one I spent a year at before I came to PSU). He was originally from the Washington DC area and his family was pretty well connected.

He put alot of things in perspective that should have maybe been told like this.

We all know that this was the first war in the television era that was bought into our living room every night. No one had ever seen anything like this before. FWIW what went on in Vietnam was nothing compared to what the Russians did in WW11 as they were beating the Germans in to submission.

This was really a war to stop the spread of communism. After WW11 ended the economic hub of mainland Europe (Berlin) fell into Communist hands. (primarily because the US did not move fast enough. Then China fall, then Korea, then the French pull out of Vietnam leaving a Marxist regime in the north. Then Cuba. Saigon and south Vietnam were the main economic hubs to get the goods a riches in and out of southeast Asia. No way did the U.S. want that falling into communist hands.

As for Ho Chi men (sp) he was smart. As soon as the countries were divided in 1954, he began sending spies into the south. No one knew who was a spy. They acted like ordinary south Vietnamese.

If you saw the move good morning Vietnam with Robin Williams there is one scene in there that tells you how well the spy network was (despite this movie being a comedy)

Robin playing Adrian crownour becomes friendly with someone who is very well connected. He is a translator. However eventually it is discovered he is a spy. That's how well the north Vietnamese spy network was.

Not in the move but guards at airports and towers would show up late or not fully staffed then attacks would occur. What side do you think those guards were on?

Finally when some wondered what are we fighting for. Simple. We were fighting to keep communism out.

 

[nits74]

Not sure what you're saying here about present day Vietnam, I'll address later.

Vietnam is in my blood, pops was a Marine, ma was one of those fleeing to the south in 54 via American cargo ships. Parents were damn happy to leave by 67. My Vietnamese heritage has a divisive surname and ethnicity to this day in VN: Sino-Vietnamese and Catholic. My mom's family will always be disgusted and regretful that Diem misled the South and Le Duan took Ho Chi Minh's power, which escalated a more more violent and aggressive strategy than Ho would ever lead, all covered in Burn's documentary.

I've been to VN several times over the past 20 years and even lived there for a year. Nearly every US veteran I've met that now visits Vietnam regularly finds the capacity of forgiveness by the Vietnamese a miracle & most of them are genuinely happy they returned. Communism really has little influence there now, more like corruption and hyper-capitalism - albeit held and practiced by once prouder communists (nepotism at its worst). The daily reality of bargaining for goods in VN, my experiences, suggests more truer capitalism than here in the US.

We bombed the living daylights out of VN, which included napalm and agent orange (some of its incredible environmental beauty will never recover, especially the soil). We repeatedly misunderstood, via utter arrogance & crippling indecisiveness, Vietnam's varying cultures and rich history, all of which worsened our involvement & inevitable loss. Long before France arrived, Vietnam taught Chinese & Mongolian empires brutal lessons. Vietnam has a long history of simply wanting what we gained before them, independence. Ironically, I should say sadly, Vietnam is a far older country than the US.

I don't think you should expect complimentary or thankful behavior when visiting Vietnam, that's borderline absurd. Any thorough research before visiting would have told you to be prepared for many challenges as it is still a 3rd World Country, a term I generally avoid. Vietnam has a ways to go and due to so many past, often unfair wars, not just with us or France, but Japan, China (many times), and Pol Pot's Cambodia.

I'm frankly shocked at the progress VN has made over the past 20 years. But the "progress" is coming with a heavy price: today's pollution in VN was not there in 99, my first visit. It's heartbreaking how polluted Hanoi and Saigon have become. I'm also concerned Vietnam and China will go to war again.

Jimmy, been thinking of going there for a visit (as well as Cuba). Never have been. Would you recommend or not?

 

[Obliviax]

Not sure what you're saying here about present day Vietnam, I'll address later.

Vietnam is in my blood, pops was a Marine, ma was one of those fleeing to the south in 54 via American cargo ships. Parents were damn happy to leave by 67. My Vietnamese heritage has a divisive surname and ethnicity to this day in VN: Sino-Vietnamese and Catholic. My mom's family will always be disgusted and regretful that Diem misled the South and Le Duan took Ho Chi Minh's power, which escalated a more more violent and aggressive strategy than Ho would ever lead, all covered in Burn's documentary.

I've been to VN several times over the past 20 years and even lived there for a year. Nearly every US veteran I've met that now visits Vietnam regularly finds the capacity of forgiveness by the Vietnamese a miracle & most of them are genuinely happy they returned. Communism really has little influence there now, more like corruption and hyper-capitalism - albeit held and practiced by once prouder communists (nepotism at its worst). The daily reality of bargaining for goods in VN, my experiences, suggests more truer capitalism than here in the US.

We bombed the living daylights out of VN, which included napalm and agent orange (some of its incredible environmental beauty will never recover, especially the soil). We repeatedly misunderstood, via utter arrogance & crippling indecisiveness, Vietnam's varying cultures and rich history, all of which worsened our involvement & inevitable loss. Long before France arrived, Vietnam taught Chinese & Mongolian empires brutal lessons. Vietnam has a long history of simply wanting what we gained before them, independence. Ironically, I should say sadly, Vietnam is a far older country than the US.

I don't think you should expect complimentary or thankful behavior when visiting Vietnam, that's borderline absurd. Any thorough research before visiting would have told you to be prepared for many challenges as it is still a 3rd World Country, a term I generally avoid. Vietnam has a ways to go and due to so many past, often unfair wars, not just with us or France, but Japan, China (many times), and Pol Pot's Cambodia.

I'm frankly shocked at the progress VN has made over the past 20 years. But the "progress" is coming with a heavy price: today's pollution in VN was not there in 99, my first visit. It's heartbreaking how polluted Hanoi and Saigon have become. I'm also concerned Vietnam and China will go to war again.

Thank you.

I agree, it is less "communist" and more of the Chinese model of Communist/Capitalist. I stayed at the JW Marriott in Hanoi initially. As luck would have it, their once every 4 years Communist Party summit was being held at the convention center nearby. The problem was/is if you are not part of the Communist party, you have no shot at anything. As such, you are on the program or not on the program and that makes them pretty ridged.

The people I met were "forgiving" as you say. Most of those alive during the war are no longer alive. It is a country of young people. I was shocked how welcoming they were. They often gave us discounts on hotels and food when they learned by brother was US Army.

We spent time in Hanoi, DaNang, Hue, Qang Tri and Khe Sahn. The museum curator put himself on my brother's elbow and you couldn't pry him loose. For my brother, it was cathartic.

Hanoi is a just a mess. Traffic was really unbelievable and I've driven in Paris, Rome, Moscow and Austin TX. I've never experienced anything like it. It was, simply, madness.

In some cases, they are being exploited. But in talking to them, they see it as a lift. They have no healthcare, for example, and the companies moving in are offering healthcare benefits. This is a massive improvement. Many die from simple illnesses because they don't want to, or cannot, burden the family for the cost of health services.

I found a lot of the pollution to be dust. For example, the road from Hanoi to Ha Long Bay. So many vehicles entering the road from rice paddies tracking in mud. Over a few minutes, the mud turns to dust and is choking. You go 1000 yards off the road and it is pristine.

Anyway, thanks for you post...good stuff and always learning.

 

[Obliviax]

Jimmy, been thinking of going there for a visit (as well as Cuba). Never have been. Would you recommend or not?

I was there a year ago in January. I spent time in Hanoi, Ha Long Bay, Danang, Hue, Quang Tri and Khe Sahn.

It is not a fun vacation. It is a great cultural experience. However, there is a ton of grown in resorts. When I was there, staying at the JW Marriott in Hanoi (a magnificent hotel) they announced they are building two more JW's in the country. I also heard two lawyers going over contracts in the concierge room, from Vegas, going over contracts with the govt to open five casinos with options for 3 more.

Food is awesome. Ha Long Bay is awesome. "China Beach", near Danang is beautiful. Hue is awesome for old VN history. Local hotels, booked on Hotel.com for $50/night were all good. The JW was one of the nicest Marriotts I've ever stayed. There was a Popeye's Chicken at Hanoi's baggage claim area.

I didn't make it south of Danang. I'd love to hit the delta and some of the souther beaches. There is also a beautiful city north of Hanoi but we ran out of time. I would say that Ha Long Bay is in the "not to be missed" category. people are as nice as can be. Don't be grossed out by people BBQing dogs everywhere.

Let me know if I can be of any help as you plan.

 

[RTLH]

When you take in the big picture, and step back from the fog and haze, things become much more clear.

The bottom line is that 40,000+ young Americans were slaughtered, and 100 times that many had their lives thrown into turmoil. Hundreds of thousands of other innocent individuals were killed, tortured, maimed and harmed.

And the primary reason - certainly for the American "casualties" - was this:

A generation of America's Leaders behaved at an intellectual level that was a notch below that of a group of 10 year old kids having a pissing contest during recess.
And for most of that time, a trusting, naive, and - especially early on - intellectually lazy public lapped up their lies and joined along.

"We gotta' stop them Commies from taking over the World. And we are gonna' do it by defending the free democratic people of Vietnam". Sob.

For a decade, Leaders like Johnson - who I felt was a very accomplished politician, which is either a compliment or an insult depending on your viewpoint - acted like self-interested children. With absolutely no purpose or plan. With absolutely no moral compass or ethical values. Probably knowing - even in his repressed intellectual state - that he had no achievable, righteous goal to reach. And was accomplishing nothing but the pointless slaughter of his own people.
Commanders like Westmoreland - who had zero ability to develop insight, and aside from basic military capabilities, had the intellectual capacity of a chipmunk - stumbled along blindly, unable to avoid tripping over his own penis at every turn. All the while sacrificing America's young men - as the price to be paid for his stupidity and ego and vanity.

The list of "those guys" is a long one.

Personally, I tend to take a harsher view of the Political Leaders - who we expect, perhaps naively, to have a broader perspective and a greater commitment to serving the needs of the people. As opposed to the Military Leaders - who we might reasonably expect to lack any perspective beyond their narrower field of expertise (commencing war). Though one should be able to assume that even narrow-minded military leaders would pull up short of creating outright lies, and of knowingly sacrificing their own troops for absolutely no purpose.

And even the few Leaders who clearly had the intelligence and insight to fully comprehend how wrong and destructive the actions were - folks like McNamara and Humphrey - were far too cowardly and weak to stand up and speak the truth to the people who's lives were being sacrificed and shattered. Cowardice and weakness and self-interest and lack of conviction - the primary characteristics of Bureaucrats and Politicians. Then, and now.

How different is out society - and how different is our leadership - and how different is the public - today?
I don't know, but whatever that answer is, that is the important lesson to be learned from the Vietnam Experience.

More like over 50,000.
As far as our leadership. This war encompassed 5 U.S. presidents and both parties. No one is to blame anymore than the other. Maybe cut Ford some slack but he just happened to be in the right place at the right time and got the prize as being present as the war ended.

 

[Obliviax]

More like over 50,000.
As far as our leadership. This war encompassed 5 U.S. presidents and both parties. No one is to blame anymore than the other. Maybe cut Ford some slack but he just happened to be in the right place at the right time and got the prize as being present as the war ended.

yeah...and Nixon, for all of his flaws, really ended the war.

 

[RTLH]

yeah...and Nixon, for all of his flaws, really ended the war.

And what most people don't know was in his final years he became a very close
confidant for Bill Clinton (even thought I try not much to write about politics here)

 

[katchthis]

What is "Soft Power," exactly?

Money and economic support. For example the thing that is working so well for us in Pakistan. China is really using it a lot in Europe and some African countries.

 

[leodisflowers]

I lived through it but never knew how we got there, and what Ho Chi Minh's background was. It was very well done in my opinion. The French really got us into that mess, and then the domino theory kept us there, as supposedly we wanted to stop the spread of communism. It all really began with the Russians occupying Eastern Europe after WWII. Their desire to spread into Southeast Asia put us in a place where we thought we had to fight there.

The French are a bunch of pussies, and the USA has constantly had to clean up their mess. Irritating.

 

[katchthis]

The French are a bunch of pussies, and the USA has constantly had to clean up their mess. Irritating.

At the time of the American Revolution, they didn't suck.

 

[RTLH]

What I am waiting for is the final episode when they evacuate the U.S. embassy. I have seen some documentaries on that and that was one of the most harrowing shows I have ever seen.
The Vietnamese trying to climb over the fence.
The final few Americans fighting thru the crowd to get to the embassy.
The Helicopters landing on the roof.
The interviews with the last dozen or so marines.
The Chaos on the ships in the south china sea with all the servicemen, refugees and having to knock certain aircraft off the ship
.

 

[wex18]

Finally when some wondered what are we fighting for. Simple. We were fighting to keep communism out.

Actually, we were fighting so Dow Chemical and Exxon could make lots of money.

yeah...and Nixon, for all of his flaws, really ended the war.

Nixon extended the war for five years beyond the time we should have pulled out. He also secretly spread it to Cambodia. He gets no pass from me.

 

[RTLH]

Actually, we were fighting so Dow Chemical and Exxon could make lots of money.
>Like Cheney, Haliburton and Iraq.
Probably forgot Dupont. (even though they kind of merged with Dow 40 years later)


Nixon extended the war for five years beyond the time we should have pulled out. He also secretly spread it to Cambodia. He gets no pass from me.

 

[jimmysfly]

Thank you.

I agree, it is less "communist" and more of the Chinese model of Communist/Capitalist. I stayed at the JW Marriott in Hanoi initially. As luck would have it, their once every 4 years Communist Party summit was being held at the convention center nearby. The problem was/is if you are not part of the Communist party, you have no shot at anything. As such, you are on the program or not on the program and that makes them pretty ridged.

The people I met were "forgiving" as you say. Most of those alive during the war are no longer alive. It is a country of young people. I was shocked how welcoming they were. They often gave us discounts on hotels and food when they learned by brother was US Army.

We spent time in Hanoi, DaNang, Hue, Qang Tri and Khe Sahn. The museum curator put himself on my brother's elbow and you couldn't pry him loose. For my brother, it was cathartic.

Hanoi is a just a mess. Traffic was really unbelievable and I've driven in Paris, Rome, Moscow and Austin TX. I've never experienced anything like it. It was, simply, madness.

In some cases, they are being exploited. But in talking to them, they see it as a lift. They have no healthcare, for example, and the companies moving in are offering healthcare benefits. This is a massive improvement. Many die from simple illnesses because they don't want to, or cannot, burden the family for the cost of health services.

I found a lot of the pollution to be dust. For example, the road from Hanoi to Ha Long Bay. So many vehicles entering the road from rice paddies tracking in mud. Over a few minutes, the mud turns to dust and is choking. You go 1000 yards off the road and it is pristine.

Anyway, thanks for you post...good stuff and always learning.

You are definitely right that a lot of the pollution is dust. I'm hopeful the roads will be laid in excess over the next decade, and damn they have the perfect density in bigger cities for public transportation. Danang is pretty clean and my favorite VN area next to the mountains of the north, along Chinese and Laos borders, as well as the fantastic caves just north of Hue, still haven't done Son Doong Cave, now the largest on the planet. Son Doong = damn waiting list and at least 3 grand for guided tour.

Damn if my last trip wasn't tougher than ones in the past. We had to drive back and forth from Hanoi and Haiphong many times. My cousin lives in he latter with her family. I brought my daughter and her friends. They just couldn't hold their water on some of the trips. We'd often take night buses which ends up being a constant stop and pickup for factory workers that work 3rd shift. So they leave those little micro chairs in the aisle and suddenly bus is max capacity, thus hard for non-English speakers to request bathroom breaks. Of course the shitter was out of order. My daughter and her friends, all girls, demonstrated how women can pee sitting in a chair then tossing little pee bags out the window. . It was a humbling and hilarious experience. Btw, they learned the technique from the local women. They were congratulated by some local women every time they pulled it off. Hell, the Vietnamese women aided in the process and created distractions so my daughter and her friends could do it with some sense of peace.

 

[m48tank]

The Rockpile and that valley are beautiful today. In fact, Rt. 9 is a really nice ride.

I was all up and down QL9 back in the day and it was not nice then - always knew when an ambush was coming because the woodcutters were not around. Glad you enjoyed the trip - I have no desire to go back.

The Rockpile and that valley are beautiful today. In fact, Rt. 9 is a really nice ride.

 

[m48tank]

Everyone has an opinion - here is article from one that was there.
I would certainly back "13th Valley" as the best book on the war from a reality standpoint.




Subject: Be Skeptical of Ken Burns documentary: The Vietnam War


Be skeptical of Ken Burns’ documentary: The Vietnam War
by Terry Garlock (Terry Garlock was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War)

Some months ago I and a dozen other local veterans attended a screening at the Woodruff Arts Center in Atlanta - preview of a new documentary on The Vietnam War by Ken Burns and Lynn Novick. The screening was a one hour summation of this 10-part documentary, 18 hours long.

The series began showing on PBS Sunday Sep 17, and with Burns’ renowned talent mixing photos, video clips and compelling mood music in documentary form, the series promises to be compelling to watch. That doesn’t mean it tells the truth.

For many years I have been presenting to high school classes a 90 minute session titled The Myths and Truths of the Vietnam War. One of my opening comments is, “The truth about Vietnam is bad enough without twisting it all out of shape with myths, half-truths and outright lies from the anti-war left.” The overall message to students is advising them to learn to think for themselves, be informed by reading one newspaper that leans left, one that leans right, and be skeptical of TV news.

Part of my presentation is showing them four iconic photos from Vietnam, aired publicly around the world countless times to portray America’s evil involvement in Vietnam. I tell the students “the rest of the story” excluded by the news media about each photo, then ask, “Wouldn’t you want the whole story before you decide for yourself what to think?”

One of those photos is the summary execution of a Viet Cong soldier in Saigon, capital city of South Vietnam, during the battles of the Tet Offensive in 1968. Our dishonorable enemy negotiated a cease-fire for that holiday then on that holiday attacked in about 100 places all over the country. Here’s what I tell students about the execution in the photo.

Enemy execution by South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police, 1968

“Before you decide what to think, here’s what the news media never told us. This enemy soldier had just been caught after he murdered a Saigon police officer, the officer’s wife, and the officer’s six children. The man pulling the trigger was Nguyen Ngoc Loan, South Vietnam’s Chief of National Police. His actions were supported by South Vietnamese law, and by the Geneva Convention since he was an un-uniformed illegal combatant. Now, you might still be disgusted by the summary execution, but wouldn’t you want all the facts before you decide what to think?”

The other one-sided stories about iconic photos I use are a nine year old girl named Kim Phuc, running down a road after her clothes were burned off by a napalm bomb, a lady kneeling by the body of a student at Kent State University, and a helicopter on top of a building with too many evacuees trying to climb aboard. Each one had only the half of the story told by news media during the war, the half that supported the anti-war narrative.

Our group of vets left the Ken Burns documentary screening . . . disappointed. As one example, all four of the photos I use were shown, with only the anti-war narrative. Will the whole truth be told in the full 18 hours? I have my doubts but we’ll see.

On the drive home with Mike King, Bob Grove and Terry Ernst, Ernst asked the other three of us who had been in Vietnam, “How does it make you feel seeing those photos and videos?” I answered, “I just wish for once they would get it right.”

Will the full documentary show John Kerry’s covert meeting in Paris with the leadership of the Viet Cong while he was still an officer in the US Naval Reserve and a leader in the anti-war movement? Will it show how Watergate crippled the Republicans and swept Democrats into Congress in 1974, and their rapid defunding of South Vietnamese promised support after Americans had been gone from Vietnam two years? Will it show Congress violating America’s pledge to defend South Vietnam if the North Vietnamese ever broke their pledge to never attack the south? Will it portray America’s shame in letting our ally fall, the tens of thousands executed for working with Americans, the hundreds of thousands who perished fleeing in overpacked, rickety boats, the million or so sent to brutal re-education camps? Will it show the North Vietnamese victors bringing an influx from the north to take over South Vietnam’s businesses, the best jobs, farms, all the good housing, or committing the culturally ruthless sin of bulldozing grave monuments of the South Vietnamese?

Will Burns show how the North Vietnamese took the city of Hue during the 1968 Tet Offensive, bringing lists of names of political leaders, business owners, doctors, nurses, teachers and other “enemies of the people,” and how they went from street to street, dragging people out of their homes, and that in the aftermath of the Battle of Hue, only when thousands of people were missing and the search began did they find the mass graves where they had been tied together and buried alive?

Will Burns show how America, after finally withdrawing from Vietnam and shamefully standing by while our ally was brutalized, did nothing while next door in Cambodia the Communists murdered two million of their own people as they tried to mimic Mao’s “worker paradise” in China?

Will Burns show how American troops conducted themselves with honor, skill and courage, never lost a major battle, and helped the South Vietnamese people in many ways like building roads and schools, digging wells, teaching improved farming methods and bringing medical care where it had never been seen before? Will he show that American war crimes, exaggerated by the left, were even more rare in Vietnam than in WWII? Will he show how a naïve young Jane Fonda betrayed her country with multiple radio broadcasts from North Vietnam, pleading with American troops to refuse their orders to fight, and calling American pilots and our President war criminals?

Color me doubtful about these and many other questions.

Being in a war doesn’t make anyone an expert on the geopolitical issues, it’s a bit like seeing history through a straw with your limited view. But my perspective has come from many years of reflection and absorbing a multitude of facts and opinions, because I was interested. My belief is that America’s involvement in Vietnam was a noble cause trying to stop the spread of Communism in Southeast Asia, while it had spread its miserable oppression in Eastern Europe and was gaining traction in Central America, Africa and other places around the world. This noble cause was, indeed, screwed up to a fare-thee-well by the Pentagon and White House, which multiplied American casualties.

The tone of the screening was altogether different, that our part in the war was a sad mistake. It seemed like Burns and Novick took photos, video clips, artifacts and interviews from involved Americans, South Vietnamese, North Vietnamese, Viet Cong, civilians from south and north, reporters and others, threw it all in a blender to puree into a new form of moral equivalence. Good for spreading a thin layer of blame and innocence, not so good for finding the truth.

John M. Del Vecchio, author of The 13th Valley, a book considered by many Vietnam vets to be the literary touchstone of how they served and suffered in the jungles of Vietnam, has this to say about Burns’ documentary:” Pretending to honor those who served while subtly and falsely subverting the reasons and justifications for that service is a con man’s game . . . From a cinematic perspective it will be exceptional. Burns knows how to make great scenes. But through the lens of history it appears to reinforce a highly skewed narrative and to be an attempt to ossify false cultural memory. The lies and fallacies will be by omission, not by overt falsehoods.”

I expect to see American virtue minimized, American missteps emphasized, to fit the left-leaning narrative about the Vietnam War that, to this day, prevents our country from learning the real lessons from that war.

When we came home from Vietnam, we thought the country had lost its mind. Wearing the uniform was for fools too dimwitted to escape service. Burning draft cards, protesting the war in ways that insulted our own troops was cool, as was fleeing to Canada.

America’s current turmoil reminds me of those days, since so many of American traditional values are being turned upside down. Even saying words defending free speech on a university campus feels completely absurd, but here we are.

So Ken Burns’ new documentary on the Vietnam War promises to solidify him as the documentary king, breathes new life into the anti-war message, and fits perfectly into the current practice of revising history to make us feel good.

Perhaps you will prove me wrong. Watch carefully, but I would advise a heavy dose of skepticism.
-----------------------------------------
Terry Garlock lives in Peachtree City, GA. He was a Cobra helicopter gunship pilot in the Vietnam War.

 

[Obliviax]

I was all up and down QL9 back in the day and it was not nice then - always knew when an ambush was coming because the woodcutters were not around. Glad you enjoyed the trip - I have no desire to go back.

I'll bet! My brother was a mechanic for the 2nd Armored. he was showing me a place where they pushed a tank over the ledge rather than try to fix it in an unsecured area.

I also took a photo of a place where a friend's father was killed while his mother was pregnant with him. He asked me to take the photo...it was on one of the firebase forward not far from the DMZ. He got killed stepping on a mine when the VC ambushed them and "herded" them into a mine field.

I can understand that you have no desire to go back. I submit that it would be a good experience but who am I? I was not there during those times.

 

[m48tank]

I'll bet! My brother was a mechanic for the 2nd Armored. he was showing me a place where they pushed a tank over the ledge rather than try to fix it in an unsecured area.

I also took a photo of a place where a friend's father was killed while his mother was pregnant with him. He asked me to take the photo...it was on one of the firebase forward not far from the DMZ. He got killed stepping on a mine when the VC ambushed them and "herded" them into a mine field.

I spent most of my time at Con Tien then the Northern most outpost in Viet Nam. It didn't seem beautiful then I just remember mud ( no dry socks for weeks) centipedes 9" long, rats as big as cats chewing on my boots at night, rain in season dust in season - mosquitoes the size of helicopters (although 4-5 days without a shower even kept them away.
Anyway, I seriously am happy you enjoyed the trip and hope your family did as well. Good luck to another "board brother".

I can understand that you have no desire to go back. I submit that it would be a good experience but who am I? I was not there during those times.

 

[nits74]

Obli, thanks for that information and your nice gesture. Have heard that it is beautiful in places. Were you treated reasonably well?

P.S. As a dog lover I might have a problem with that!

 

[Obliviax]

Obli, thanks for that information and your nice gesture. Have heard that it is beautiful in places. Were you treated reasonably well?

P.S. As a dog lover I might have a problem with that!

yes, we were treated great. In fact, our biggest concern was how a VN Vet would be treated. My brother was revered. People took photos and gave us discounts on food when they learned he was a vet.

So, at the JW, there was a beautiful young lady (maybe 23 years old) and dressed to the 9's there who greeted guests arriving. The first day, after watching a woman grill a dog near the Ho Chi Minh mausoleum, we asked her how prevalent it was. She was very shy and didn't want to answer. She said it was an old practice that was diminishing. Then, I asked her if she has ever eaten dog. She said "a few times". After some probing, she finally admitted that is a once-a-week practice in her family.

 

[nits74]

yes, we were treated great. In fact, our biggest concern was how a VN Vet would be treated. My brother was revered. People took photos and gave us discounts on food when they learned he was a vet.

So, at the JW, there was a beautiful young lady (maybe 23 years old) and dressed to the 9's there who greeted guests arriving. The first day, after watching a woman grill a dog near the Ho Chi Minh mausoleum, we asked her how prevalent it was. She was very shy and didn't want to answer. She said it was an old practice that was diminishing. Then, I asked her if she has ever eaten dog. She said "a few times". After some probing, she finally admitted that is a once-a-week practice in her family.

I had heard in the past how forgiving (right word?) they can be. Maybe let bygones be bygones is a better way to put it. Thanks again.

 

[Obliviax]

I had heard in the past how forgiving (right word?) they can be. Maybe let bygones be bygones is a better way to put it. Thanks again.

yeah...not sure if it is forgiving. I felt it was more than that. something between "forgiving" and "grateful". I guess it depends. The people of Saigon didn't seem to really care as much. We were like WW2 vets to me when I was a kid in the 70's.

In the south, our driver's father was a colonel in the ARVN. He loved my brother and told us how his father disappeared for two years to be "re-educated". They didn't know if he was dead or alive. Also, the people that kept the Khe Sahn "museum" were also really attentive.

Our first day there, we went to the Ho Chi Minh mausoleum. as we waited in line, soldiers were everywhere and we didn't know how we'd be accepted. we were in the lions den. as we approached, by brother was wearing a Duck Dynasty cap. One of the soldiers motioned to him to take it off while in the mausoleum. My brother snapped to like he was just saluted by a five star general. I teased him back at the hotel and then showed him I was wearing stars and stripes underwear. We laughed like little kids.

 

[22mike306]

r

More like over 50,000.
As far as our leadership. This war encompassed 5 U.S. presidents and both parties. No one is to blame anymore than the other. Maybe cut Ford some slack but he just happened to be in the right place at the right time and got the prize as being present as the war ended.

I've only just scanned the posts in this thread, so I may have missed a meaningful discussion of the crucial period when JFK introduced ground troops to VN, the contrived Tonkin Gulf incident and the early years of the war when LBJ was micro managing the war (particularly by directing air strikes) from the WH. I was a naval flight officer from 69 to 74 and I can tell you that from my perspective at the time (and, i believe, the perspective of most people I served with) your statement about all the Presidents being equally to blame for our disastrous involvement in the VN war is just not accurate.

 

[troutrus]

Not much has changed in the 50 years since. Irresponsible politicians sending our young folks into war with no clear cut objectives, and no way to measure success or failure. Not that anyone would ever admit failure. Back then they claimed to be fighting communism which was a popular angle to garner votes in the next election. Nowadays our politicians have worked out trade agreements with those same communists. All for the almighty $$$$$$.

 

[RTLH]

r
I've only just scanned the posts in this thread, so I may have missed a meaningful discussion of the crucial period when JFK introduced ground troops to VN, the contrived Tonkin Gulf incident and the early years of the war when LBJ was micro managing the war (particularly by directing air strikes) from the WH. I was a naval flight officer from 69 to 74 and I can tell you that from my perspective at the time (and, i believe, the perspective of most people I served with) your statement about all the Presidents being equally to blame for our disastrous involvement in the VN war is just not accurate.

None of them handled Vietnam right.

 

[22mike306]

None of them handled Vietnam right.

That's a different matter. Like most things in life, one size doesn't fit all. There are various degrees of incompetence.....they weren't all equal in their blame.

 

[Tom McAndrew]

Tonight's episode was another tough one to watch.

Politicians lying through their teeth. The Vietnam Veterans Against the War throwing away their medals. The on again, off again, peace talks. The creation of the plumbers unit by the Nixon White House, the release of the Pentagon Papers, the Easter offensive, the Christmas bombing, the many anti-war leaders that visited Hanoi during the war, Jane Fonda visiting Hanoi, the way the US cut out the RVN from the peace process, Nixon and Kissinger not caring what happened to RVN; just that they got a peace agreement, and finally the peace agreement and the US POWs flying home.

Tomorrow's episode is the the final segment, and includes the fall of Saigon.

 

[jimmysfly]

The French are a bunch of pussies, and the USA has constantly had to clean up their mess. Irritating.

I think French cowardice is utterly overstated. Sure they went against the grain of their past during WWII, but damn if they weren't surrounded by mostly Axis powers. France also overstretched themselves with Colonialism long before WW2. Germany, on the other hand, have never been on par with France, England and other European powers that exercised colonialism. Moreover, Germany has always been considerably more populated than France.

Let's not also forget, France, next to Russia, suffered the most casualties during WW1. You could argue England lost more, but you're probably viewing British Empire numbers, wherever you look. France never conscripted its colonies on England's level.

During WW2, you may argue that England weren't "pussies" like France, but any vet like me or military historian for that matter, will tell you taking a large island is a complex and daunting task, especially if its run by a unified and effective government (England, Japan). Moreover, England remains the most successful colonizer on the planet & as implied above, many of their nations states/colonies, unlike France, could come to their aid during WW2. It also helps having the US as your strongest allies, most cases.

France had some brutal wars with their former colonies, of course Algeria and Vietnam being the more known long-term wars that doomed them. Sure, France did not engage in their wars with Algeria and France til after WW2, but their administrative and military difficulties in both places predate WW2.

Ask most Vietnamese during their colonial period, not many alive, they'll tell you the French were ruthless on the battlefield.

Bottom line, in the past the French were more arrogant and unreasonable, especially with their colonialism & were losing money in the process. They were ripe for defeat by WW2 & were not fully recovered from their WW1 losses as well. Pussies, I don't agree - far from it.

 

[Ct. Lion]

(The people I met were "forgiving" as you say. Most of those alive during the war are no longer alive. It is a country of young people. I was shocked how welcoming they were. They often gave us discounts on hotels and food when they learned by brother was US Army.)

The lack of older people in Vietnam is two fold: getting killed during the war or dying after the war from Agent Orange. Our Vietnam Vets that are still alive suffer life threatening diseases frequently due to this cancerous herbicide and they were, for the most part, only there a year. The Vietnamese had to live with it for years until time neutralized the chemicals. Our vets survive due to their medical coverage but the Vietnamese just die with no medical options. As a vet I have had to battle two life threatening medical conditions, successfully so far, that would have killed a Vietnamese already.
As far as eating unusual items like dogs, the Vietnamese and the Montagnards had a long list of things to eat for protein. Between my combat commands of the Heavy Automatic Weapons Unit and the Field Artillery Battery I was an artillery forward observer and advisor to U.S. and Australian Special Forces (with Montagnard infantry), Korean infantry and ARVN Ranger units with MACV. I saw them eat dogs, cats, rats, bats, snakes, monkeys, rotten sea food air lifted in as rations, and other stuff. I ate C rations or LRRP rations but still ended up with Amoebic Dysentery from some of their rice cooked with swamp water.
M48tank, a book written by a Duster crew chief (Dusterman by Joe Belardo) covers Highway 9 from Dong Ha to Khe Sanh and I think you would identify with it very well.

 

[Cletus11]

(The people I met were "forgiving" as you say. Most of those alive during the war are no longer alive. It is a country of young people. I was shocked how welcoming they were. They often gave us discounts on hotels and food when they learned by brother was US Army.)

The lack of older people in Vietnam is two fold: getting killed during the war or dying after the war from Agent Orange. Our Vietnam Vets that are still alive suffer life threatening diseases frequently due to this cancerous herbicide and they were, for the most part, only there a year. The Vietnamese had to live with it for years until time neutralized the chemicals. Our vets survive due to their medical coverage but the Vietnamese just die with no medical options. As a vet I have had to battle two life threatening medical conditions, successfully so far, that would have killed a Vietnamese already.
As far as eating unusual items like dogs, the Vietnamese and the Montagnards had a long list of things to eat for protein. Between my combat commands of the Heavy Automatic Weapons Unit and the Field Artillery Battery I was an artillery forward observer and advisor to U.S. and Australian Special Forces (with Montagnard infantry), Korean infantry and ARVN Ranger units with MACV. I saw them eat dogs, cats, rats, bats, snakes, monkeys, rotten sea food air lifted in as rations, and other stuff. I ate C rations or LRRP rations but still ended up with Amoebic Dysentery from some of their rice cooked with swamp water.
M48tank, a book written by a Duster crew chief (Dusterman by Joe Belardo) covers Highway 9 from Dong Ha to Khe Sanh and I think you would identify with it very well.

Don't most Asian country's eat dog? I know I work for a large multi-national conglomerate that does projects around the world. I remember talking recently to a guy (European) about a job he was on a few years ago, it was somewhere in Africa. Said when he was there at the beginning of the job, there was a huge wild dog population locally. He said when the heavy duty construction crews came in, they were mostly Chinese, living on the jobsite in trailers and tents brought in. He said about 6 weeks later he noticed that he didn't see or hear anymore dogs anymore. The local construction manager told him happens all the time when the Chinese construction workers come in, that is one of the reasons they liked them coming in as got rid of the wild dog (and other animal) issues.

 

[baircub1!]

Seeing all of that brings back memories of when we sent my two cousins off in '67 and again in '68.

All of the male family members, young and old, gathered to send them off. I was only 5 & 6 at the time but the party and the letters home made quite an impression on me.

Watched it last night... had never heard John Kerry's speech to Congress before during the war...

 

[Art]

Watched it last night... had never heard John Kerry's speech to Congress before during the war...

Did you happen to notice how imaculately coiffed Lurch was, even in those days?

 

[baircub1!]

Did you happen to notice how imaculately coiffed Lurch was, even in those days?

Actually I dd not know prior how controversial it was...and boy Nixon was some character !

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

(The people I met were "forgiving" as you say. Most of those alive during the war are no longer alive. It is a country of young people. I was shocked how welcoming they were. They often gave us discounts on hotels and food when they learned by brother was US Army.)

The lack of older people in Vietnam is two fold: getting killed during the war or dying after the war from Agent Orange. Our Vietnam Vets that are still alive suffer life threatening diseases frequently due to this cancerous herbicide and they were, for the most part, only there a year. The Vietnamese had to live with it for years until time neutralized the chemicals. Our vets survive due to their medical coverage but the Vietnamese just die with no medical options. As a vet I have had to battle two life threatening medical conditions, successfully so far, that would have killed a Vietnamese already.
As far as eating unusual items like dogs, the Vietnamese and the Montagnards had a long list of things to eat for protein. Between my combat commands of the Heavy Automatic Weapons Unit and the Field Artillery Battery I was an artillery forward observer and advisor to U.S. and Australian Special Forces (with Montagnard infantry), Korean infantry and ARVN Ranger units with MACV. I saw them eat dogs, cats, rats, bats, snakes, monkeys, rotten sea food air lifted in as rations, and other stuff. I ate C rations or LRRP rations but still ended up with Amoebic Dysentery from some of their rice cooked with swamp water.
M48tank, a book written by a Duster crew chief (Dusterman by Joe Belardo) covers Highway 9 from Dong Ha to Khe Sanh and I think you would identify with it very well.

Thanks for sharing your story. Your resilience is an inspiration to many. Your longevity is a tribute to your beliefs and values. Thanks, also, for your bravery during that incredibly difficult time.