A few ideas on the P4P list...

[ev_flores0331]

Here's mine:

1) Kyle Snyder (no brainer, IMO)

2) J'Den Cox

3) IMar

4) Retherford

5) Gabe Dean

6) Dean Heil

7) Nolf

8) Isaac Jordan

9) Bo Nickal

10) Bo Jordan

I'd take Bo Jordan over Bo Nickal head-to-head, but Nickal's results from last year were more impressive.

I ranked Martinez, Retherford, and Dean on how tough their respective weight classes were last year.

 

[CholleyVandine]

What are your criteria?

Snyder is P4P more likely than any college wrestler to win an Olympic gold medal in freestyle wrestling, but he's a part-time participant in college wrestling who has been pinned as many times in his career as he's had pins. I don't know where to put him, because he's so talented, but as long as pins count for more than other kinds of wins, he won't be my #1.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

Heil above Nolf is laughable. And Zain was far more dominant last year than Cox, this isn't a FS ranking.

1. Snyder
2. Retherford
3. Cox
4. IMar
5. Dean
6. Nolf
7. Heil
8. NaTo
9. Bo Nickal
10. IJo

 

[El-Jefe]

I'd also put Gilman ahead of Heil: made the top 10 most dominant list, only losses all year were to national champs, and he pinned one of them in the national semis.

 

[NittanyLion84]

I'd also put Gilman ahead of Heil: made the top 10 most dominant list, only losses all year were to national champs, and he pinned one of them in the national semis.

Zain would be ahead of Snyder, on my list.

 

[RoarLions1]

Until we talk about a metric, it's just a bunch of opinions...which is fine. I like metrics, and the NCAA's Most Dominant Wrestler metric (already mentioned above) is a good one, imo.

Here's my list;

Jason Nolf
Zain Retherford
Kyle Snyder
J'den Cox
Isaiah Martinez
Gabe Dean
Thomas Gilman
Dean Heil
Bo Nickal
Bo Jordan

 

[ev_flores0331]

Snyder doesn't/won't have as many matches but he's a sophomore in college with a World Championship, an NCAA title, and Olympic Gold. Look at who Snyder wrestled in his final versus Retherford's opponent. Noticeable drop-off. No disrespect to Sorenson. He's a great wrestler who could win a title, but Gwiz was a two-time defending champ.

 

[NittanyLion84]

Snyder doesn't/won't have as many matches but he's a sophomore in college with a World Championship, an NCAA title, and Olympic Gold. Look at who Snyder wrestled in his final versus Retherford's opponent. Noticeable drop-off. No disrespect to Sorenson, that kid is a great wrestler, but Gwiz was a two-time defending champ.

Snyder's inability to pin, puts him behind Zain, in my book, for most dominant.

 

[a_mshaffer]

What are your criteria?

Snyder is P4P more likely than any college wrestler to win an Olympic gold medal in freestyle wrestling, but he's a part-time participant in college wrestling who has been pinned as many times in his career as he's had pins. I don't know where to put him, because he's so talented, but as long as pins count for more than other kinds of wins, he won't be my #1.

p4p - does wrestling people who weigh more than you count?

 

[RoarLions1]

Snyder doesn't/won't have as many matches but he's a sophomore in college with a World Championship, an NCAA title, and Olympic Gold. Look at who Snyder wrestled in his final versus Retherford's opponent. Noticeable drop-off. No disrespect to Sorenson. He's a great wrestler who could win a title, but Gwiz was a two-time defending champ.

Not sure what you're getting at. Snyder also had close matches (3 and 4 point decisions) against Coon and Walz last year.

Snyder is a Junior by eligibility.

 

[Azchief32]

Have to go with Snyder on this one. After 2015 NCAA's at Worlds, he looked like a new wrestler and won worlds. Came into the NCAA tourney after only wrestling a few matches in the regular season and dominated beating Ty Walz pretty easily and than beat a two time national champ who if he was still around (with no Snyder), would be near the top of this list. Also beat another guy on this list in J'Den Cox...who is an Olympic Bronze medalist. Also keep in mind that most of his opponents at heavy out weighed him by 30-50 pounds. Imagine Zain moving up even 16 pounds to 165. Finally, he won the Olympics.

Cox-Cox was one of those guys that had potential to be a dominator, you saw flashes of it, but then he would turtle up and sometimes do just enough to win. Welp...that's no more. Bronze medalist who walked in to team trials and beat more seasoned guys at freestyle to include a former four time national champ a month after folkstyle ended, qualified the weight, beat some world class guys at the cup, and did pretty good at the Olympics. Think that will boost the confidence a bit?

Dean-Won a monster weight class. Lost once to Boyd but IAW the rumors, he was sick for a week. Beat Boyd 10-4 in the rematch. Nobody really comes close, even in close matches.

Zain-He will be the most dominant this year IMO but his problem is that he is in a weak weight class. Sorensen, who some complain about, is his best competition. He's my guy, love the kid, but until he proves it...not in Zain's league.

IMar-One might wonder why a one loss, two timer who is one of the funnest guys to watch is below Zain. I think IMar is going to suffer maybe two losses this year in a meat grinder of talent that is 165. It rivals 184 for the toughest weight class IMO. I still think he is the favorite in that class just because the talent is so young.

That's my top five.

 

[NittanyLion84]

Have to go with Snyder on this one. After 2015 NCAA's at Worlds, he looked like a new wrestler and won worlds. Came into the NCAA tourney after only wrestling a few matches in the regular season and dominated beating Ty Walz pretty easily and than beat a two time national champ who if he was still around (with no Snyder), would be near the top of this list. Also beat another guy on this list in J'Den Cox...who is an Olympic Bronze medalist. Also keep in mind that most of his opponents at heavy out weighed him by 30-50 pounds. Imagine Zain moving up even 16 pounds to 165. Finally, he won the Olympics.

Cox-Cox was one of those guys that had potential to be a dominator, you saw flashes of it, but then he would turtle up and sometimes do just enough to win. Welp...that's no more. Bronze medalist who walked in to team trials and beat more seasoned guys at freestyle to include a former four time national champ a month after folkstyle ended, qualified the weight, beat some world class guys at the cup, and did pretty good at the Olympics. Think that will boost the confidence a bit?

Dean-Won a monster weight class. Lost once to Boyd but IAW the rumors, he was sick for a week. Beat Boyd 10-4 in the rematch. Nobody really comes close, even in close matches.

Zain-He will be the most dominant this year IMO but his problem is that he is in a weak weight class. Sorensen, who some complain about, is his best competition. He's my guy, love the kid, but until he proves it...not in Zain's league.

IMar-One might wonder why a one loss, two timer who is one of the funnest guys to watch is below Zain. I think IMar is going to suffer maybe two losses this year in a meat grinder of talent that is 165. It rivals 184 for the toughest weight class IMO. I still think he is the favorite in that class just because the talent is so young.

That's my top five.

In my mind, can't get over the fact that he could not pin even the lower tier guys in his weght class.

 

[El-Jefe]

Dean-Won a monster weight class. Lost once to Boyd but IAW the rumors, he was sick for a week. Beat Boyd 10-4 in the rematch. Nobody really comes close, even in close matches.

Dean missed 3 weeks. Lost to Boyd on 2/7, last match before that was 1/16.

Here's a funny quote from Koll about it:

Despite a rough start and early season, the Red squad is back in fighting shape, overcoming earlier problems with sickness and injury.

“Our biggest problem [this season] has been our health,” Koll said. “We fixed this by having everyone get sick earlier in the year.”

That was a home match, so no long bus ride. And Koll didn't mention average officials.

 

[El-Jefe]

In my mind, can't get over the fact that he could not pin even the lower tier guys in his weght class.

Well, OK, but he did tech them -- in the statue division, where 20 points is a full season for some guys. He didn't try to pin them. He wrestled freestyle matches with folk rules.

This does point out the problem with these types of discussions: how does one judge "best" with no agreed-upon criteria? Zain was most dominant. Snyder faced better competition in a tougher weight, giving up serious lbs, albeit with a smaller sample size.

Zain vs. Snyder for "best" is like the old Randy Johnson vs. Greg Maddux argument. One might take your head off. The other was a comfortable 0-for-4. Either way you're out.

 

[Azchief32]

Well, OK, but he did tech them -- in the statue division, where 20 points is a full season for some guys. He didn't try to pin them. He wrestled freestyle matches with folk rules. I was the one who kept pointing out that Snyder had zero

This does point out the problem with these types of discussions: how does one judge "best" with no agreed-upon criteria? Zain was most dominant. Snyder faced better competition in a tougher weight, giving up serious lbs, albeit with a smaller sample size.

Zain vs. Snyder for "best" is like the old Randy Johnson vs. Greg Maddux argument. One might take your head off. The other was a comfortable 0-for-4. Either way you're out.

And is wrestling up against guy who weighs 275 when you weigh 230 the same as wrestling up against a guy at 184 when you are 149? I don't know. Snyder did look pretty small against some of those guys.

In my mind, can't get over the fact that he could not pin even the lower tier guys in his weght class.

He bonused everybody not named Coon, Walz, or Gwiz.

 

[RoarLions1]

Can't go wrong with any of the top guys this early.

 

[James P. Whitters III]

I would have a problem declaring any hwt. a lb. per lb. #1. The best athletes in that size range seldom have wrestling as the primary sport. Athletic 285 lb. men can make money playing football in front of huge crowds. The lighter weights have more "wrestling only" athletes, and therefore are above the heavies in my mind. I am a huge Snyder fan and consider him a monster in his weight class, but place very limited value in watching that weight class. Give me 125-174 all day long as a spectator. I don't think you can use the weight being given up either. The weight is usually body fat which is not muscle. Move 120lb. Spencer Lee up to wrestle the top high school kids in the 160 lb. bracket. Much steeper hill than a 230 going against a 270.

 

[El-Jefe]

I would have a problem declaring any hwt. a lb. per lb. #1. The best athletes in that size range seldom have wrestling as the primary sport. Athletic 285 lb. men can make money playing football in front of huge crowds. The lighter weights have more "wrestling only" athletes, and therefore are above the heavies in my mind. I am a huge Snyder fan and consider him a monster in his weight class, but place very limited value in watching that weight class. Give me 125-174 all day long as a spectator. I don't think you can use the weight being given up either. The weight is usually body fat which is not muscle. Move 120lb. Spencer Lee up to wrestle the top high school kids in the 160 lb. bracket. Much steeper hill than a 230 going against a 270.

Gwiz was the #1 220 in HS. Coon was the #1 285 in HS and turned down a football scholarship from Alabama. Walz was a Cadet freestyle national champ. Dhesi was a Canadian national freestyle champ. While the overall talent level isn't as good at HWT, the top 5 guys were every bit as good as the top 5 in any other weight.

Also, body fat is a red herring. Gwiz, Walz, Coon, and Dhesi outweighing Snyder by 30-50 lb wasn't fat. And Snyder wrestled NCAAs at almost 20 lb heavier than his Olympic weight.

 

[NittanyLion84]

And is wrestling up against guy who weighs 275 when you weigh 230 the same as wrestling up against a guy at 184 when you are 149? I don't know. Snyder did look pretty small against some of those guys.



He bonused everybody not named Coon, Walz, or Gwiz.

Jan Johnson was not a top tier heavyweight and if you can't pin him, your not most dominant, in comparison to all of Zain's pins and bonus point wins.

 

[El-Jefe]

Jan Johnson was not a top tier heavyweight and if you can't pin him, your not most dominant, in comparison to all of Zain's pins and bonus point wins.

How do you know Snyder can't pin Johnson? He didn't try. He wrestled a takedown tournament until the ref stopped it.

 

[NittanyChris]

Snyder and Gwiz had an epic battle that pretty much showed they were dead even in terms of talent, with Snyder having the barest of edges possible.

Zain manhandled Sorensen, the #2 in his class and a damn good wrestler. The match was never in doubt. Not for a second.

Given that, Zain is P4P the best in the land.

 

[NittanyLion84]

How do you know Snyder can't pin Johnson? He didn't try.

That kind of proves my point. I don't recall him attempting to pin most of the guys he wrestled. We are talking most dominant and if you do not even attempt it, you are pulling yourself out of the conversation.

 

[Azchief32]

Snyder and Gwiz had an epic battle that pretty much showed they were dead even in terms of talent, with Snyder having the barest of edges possible.

Zain manhandled Sorensen, the #2 in his class and a damn good wrestler. The match was never in doubt. Not for a second.

Given that, Zain is P4P the best in the land.

Gwiz was a two time champ who had 30 pounds on Snyder. Sorensen was a returning 4th place finisher. I'm an Iowa guy telling you it's not the same.

 

[El-Jefe]

That kind of proves my point. I don't recall him attempting to pin most of the guys he wrestled. We are talking most dominant and if you do not even attempt it, you are pulling yourself out of the conversation.

Can't believe this has to be re-emphasized: Snyder wasn't wrestling folk. He was training for the Olympics. Trying to pin guys in folk would've been contrary to his goal of winning the Olympics.

Also can't believe this has to be re-emphasized: Snyder hung 24 pts on Johnson in 4:10. That's dominance at 125. And a lot more dominant than a Tony Nelson pin, 1-0 after 2 periods and turn the opponent once in the 3rd.

I was in HS when the TF rule was created. We called it the 15-point embarrassment rule.

Single-minded focus on pins as a measure of dominance makes no sense.

 

[ev_flores0331]

I agree, Snyder was using the NCAA tourney as a tune-up for Rio. Retherford is a pretty bad dude, but have him up at 165 wrestling Dieringer and see how that turns out.

 

[NittanyLion84]

Can't believe this has to be re-emphasized: Snyder wasn't wrestling folk. He was training for the Olympics. Trying to pin guys in folk would've been contrary to his goal of winning the Olympics.

Also can't believe this has to be re-emphasized: Snyder hung 24 pts on Johnson in 4:10. That's dominance at 125. And a lot more dominant than a Tony Nelson pin, 1-0 after 2 periods and turn the opponent once in the 3rd.

I was in HS when the TF rule was created. We called it the 15-point embarrassment rule.

Single-minded focus on pins as a measure of dominance makes no sense.

We can agree to disagree.

 

[NittanyChris]

Can't believe this has to be re-emphasized: Snyder wasn't wrestling folk. He was training for the Olympics. Trying to pin guys in folk would've been contrary to his goal of winning the Olympics.

Also can't believe this has to be re-emphasized: Snyder hung 24 pts on Johnson in 4:10. That's dominance at 125. And a lot more dominant than a Tony Nelson pin, 1-0 after 2 periods and turn the opponent once in the 3rd.

I was in HS when the TF rule was created. We called it the 15-point embarrassment rule.

Single-minded focus on pins as a measure of dominance makes no sense.

Love Johnson for what he did for our team last year. Very selfless and gutsy. A great kid.

That said, he wasn't very good at all (completely understandably so, given the circumstances). So scoring a lot of points on him really adds no weight at all to your argument.

It's Zain, IMO. No one was more dominant than he, practically toying with guys all season long.

 

[Azchief32]

That said, he wasn't very good at all (completely understandably so, given the circumstances). So scoring a lot of points on him really adds no weight at all to your argument.

Jefe only brought him up because NL84 cited him as an example of Snyder not being able to pin him.

To recap...prior to 2016 NCAA:

Final four hwys: Gwiz, Coon, Walz, Snyder (Gwiz 2X, Coon finalist, Walz AA, Snyder Finalist at 197/World Champ)

Final four 149: Zain (3rd at 141), Pantaleo (DNP, Collica (DNP), Sorenson (4th)

Zain is great but it is a weak weight class. Gwiz was the only one that tested Snyder and I could see him being the next heavy on our world team.

 

[diggerpup]

This is an aimless discussion until the criteria for P4P is set.

What's the criteria?

Most dominant in scoring w TF & pins ?

Or the most dominant; in saying its near impossible to beat them in their weight class ?

The lists will look quite different depending on criteria.

 

[caliPSUfan]

Roar and digger beat me to it...maybe we can make lists based on specific metrics and then we can compare apples to apples.

 

[diggerpup]

Also, in discussing "most dominant".

As in, "never going to lose"

Gwiz had a nice lead on Snyder and almost had him beat.... Snyder had an amazing comeback.

Meanwhile... We're all still waiting for Zain to give up some offensive points to his competitors. Wake me when that happens.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

Gwiz was the #1 220 in HS. Coon was the #1 285 in HS and turned down a football scholarship from Alabama. Walz was a Cadet freestyle national champ. Dhesi was a Canadian national freestyle champ. While the overall talent level isn't as good at HWT, the top 5 guys were every bit as good as the top 5 in any other weight.

Also, body fat is a red herring. Gwiz, Walz, Coon, and Dhesi outweighing Snyder by 30-50 lb wasn't fat. And Snyder wrestled NCAAs at almost 20 lb heavier than his Olympic weight.

Where'd you read about Coon giving up a scholarship to Bama? Not buying that nor have I seen him ranked as a football recruit anywhere.

 

[CSauertiegPSU]

Can't believe this has to be re-emphasized: Snyder wasn't wrestling folk. He was training for the Olympics. Trying to pin guys in folk would've been contrary to his goal of winning the Olympics.

Also can't believe this has to be re-emphasized: Snyder hung 24 pts on Johnson in 4:10. That's dominance at 125. And a lot more dominant than a Tony Nelson pin, 1-0 after 2 periods and turn the opponent once in the 3rd.

I was in HS when the TF rule was created. We called it the 15-point embarrassment rule.

Single-minded focus on pins as a measure of dominance makes no sense.

We're ranking folkstyle wrestlers though, no?

 

[El-Jefe]

This is an aimless discussion until the criteria for P4P is set.

What's the criteria?

Most dominant in scoring w TF & pins ?

Or the most dominant; in saying its near impossible to beat them in their weight class ?

The lists will look quite different depending on criteria.

This was my point from the beginning.

The discussion originated as some vague "best P4P" I don't understand an argument in this context for anyone being "best P4P" over an Olympic gold medalist and 2x world champ.

 

[El-Jefe]

Where'd you read about Coon giving up a scholarship to Bama? Not buying that nor have I seen him ranked as a football recruit anywhere.

Coon was an all-state linebacker. Was pursued somewhat by B10 football teams, but not terribly hard because everyone knew he was going to wrestle in college. Saban offered him after he had already committed to Michigan.

 

[El-Jefe]

We're ranking folkstyle wrestlers though, no?

Based on what criteria? None was listed by the OP.

 

[ev_flores0331]

This is nothing but my personal opinion. I was hoping to hear your various lists and criteria. If we can all agree on specific criteria, that's cool, too. Unlikely, though. lol

 

[CholleyVandine]

This was my point from the beginning.

The discussion originated as some vague "best P4P" I don't understand an argument in this context for anyone being "best P4P" over an Olympic gold medalist and 2x world champ.

That was my point from the beginning too. I think Snyder is the best wrestler in college but that's not the same as being the best college wrestler. I think he could end up being one of the greatest American wrestlers of all time (assuming he can resist the MMA temptation for a couple more Olympic cycles and beat Sadulaev a few times). But going into his junior year of college, he hasn't done enough in college to be considered the best P4P college wrestler.

My list of best P4P college wrestlers would be:

1. IMar
2. Zain
3. Snyder
4. Cox
5. Dean
6. Nolf
7. Gilman
8. NaTo
9. Heil

My list of best P4P wrestlers in college would be:

1. Snyder
2. Cox
3. Zain (3rd in the Olympic Trials, more dominant than IMar last year)
4. IMar
5. Dean
6. Nolf
7. Gilman
8. NaTo
9. Heil

 

[T J]

This was my point from the beginning.

The discussion originated as some vague "best P4P" I don't understand an argument in this context for anyone being "best P4P" over an Olympic gold medalist and 2x world champ.

As mentioned by so many, it all depends upon the criteria.

So, here is one criteria to consider...

In college wrestling, there is an achievement level above wins.
That level is bonus points.

Bonus points are the Trump Card when it comes to college wrestling, because of their ability to lift entire teams to Dual wins, Conference Championships and National Championships.

The rules are the rules.

Win a match 4-0 and you score 3 points.

Win by a Tech Fall or Fall and you multiply your effectiveness and therefore your value in college wrestling at the Dual, Conference and National levels.

A wrestler can only control his performances, not his competition. Yet he can impact his team, in a magnified way, by dominating those he wrestles.

Will submit that, given equal W/L records, given all of the matches presented to a wrestler, the ability to score bonus points is the higher standard.
​

LOL - Yet, that plus a dollar won't buy you a "Jolt of Joe" at Starbucks.

 

[ev_flores0331]

As mentioned by so many, it all depends upon the criteria.

So, here is one criteria to consider...

In college wrestling, there is an achievement level above wins.
That level is bonus points.

Bonus points are the Trump Card when it comes to college wrestling, because of their ability to lift entire teams to Dual wins, Conference Championships and National Championships.

The rules are the rules.

Win a match 4-0 and you score 3 points.

Win by a Tech Fall or Fall and you multiply your effectiveness and therefore your value in college wrestling at the Dual, Conference and National levels.

A wrestler can only control his performances, not his competition. Yet he can impact his team, in a magnified way, by dominating those who he wrestles.

Will submit that, given equal W/L records, the ability to score bonus points, given all of the matches presented to a wrestler, is the higher standard.
​

LOL - Yet, that plus a dollar won't buy you a "Jolt of Joe" at Starbucks.

I totally get where you're coming from, all else being equal, bonus points are definitely a tiebreaker. I think we should also take into account the level of competition in a particular weight. We all agree some weights aren't quite as loaded as others.