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A Question on Paterno Situation

WichitaKid

Well-Known Member
May 30, 2001
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I have been a long-time member of this board and have posted a fair number of times over the years. The frequency of my posts has greatly lessened in the last few years because of Sandusky-Paterno situation fatigue; i.e., I've not kept up on the details of the scandal as many of you have [because I came to my conclusion (that Joe is completely innocent of wrongdoing, although, in retrospect, he admittedly would do a couple things differently; i.e., he made an honest mistake) years ago and didn't think it a useful activity to spend my time following the day-to-day happenings]. I want to pose two questions that are going to sound silly to most of you (like, where has this guy been?).

1. Somewhere along the line, I came across something that indicated that someone called Fina declared that he could find no evidence that Paterno was involved in a cover-up (but, he should have done more than he did). Could someone elaborate on this? Who is Fina; why did his conclusion not get publicized more and utilized in Paterno's defense and spark serious media reconsideration of the "accepted" narrative; approximately when did Fina publicize his conclusion (month/year)?

2. Part of the case against Paterno involved an e-mail that Curley sent to someone. I think he used the word "coach" to refer to someone, and it was assumed by those who wanted evidence against Paterno, that "coach" referred to Paterno. We all were hoping Curley would get to testify, in court, as to the meaning of the e-mail and the identity of "coach." Did that ever get clarified?
 
I have been a long-time member of this board and have posted a fair number of times over the years. The frequency of my posts has greatly lessened in the last few years because of Sandusky-Paterno situation fatigue; i.e., I've not kept up on the details of the scandal as many of you have [because I came to my conclusion (that Joe is completely innocent of wrongdoing, although, in retrospect, he admittedly would do a couple things differently; i.e., he made an honest mistake) years ago and didn't think it a useful activity to spend my time following the day-to-day happenings]. I want to pose two questions that are going to sound silly to most of you (like, where has this guy been?).

1. Somewhere along the line, I came across something that indicated that someone called Fina declared that he could find no evidence that Paterno was involved in a cover-up (but, he should have done more than he did). Could someone elaborate on this? Who is Fina; why did his conclusion not get publicized more and utilized in Paterno's defense and spark serious media reconsideration of the "accepted" narrative; approximately when did Fina publicize his conclusion (month/year)?

2. Part of the case against Paterno involved an e-mail that Curley sent to someone. I think he used the word "coach" to refer to someone, and it was assumed by those who wanted evidence against Paterno, that "coach" referred to Paterno. We all were hoping Curley would get to testify, in court, as to the meaning of the e-mail and the identity of "coach." Did that ever get clarified?

JUSTIN FIELDS!!

Sorry I couldn't be more helpful. Welcome back!
 
I have been a long-time member of this board and have posted a fair number of times over the years. The frequency of my posts has greatly lessened in the last few years because of Sandusky-Paterno situation fatigue; i.e., I've not kept up on the details of the scandal as many of you have [because I came to my conclusion (that Joe is completely innocent of wrongdoing, although, in retrospect, he admittedly would do a couple things differently; i.e., he made an honest mistake) years ago and didn't think it a useful activity to spend my time following the day-to-day happenings]. I want to pose two questions that are going to sound silly to most of you (like, where has this guy been?).

1. Somewhere along the line, I came across something that indicated that someone called Fina declared that he could find no evidence that Paterno was involved in a cover-up (but, he should have done more than he did). Could someone elaborate on this? Who is Fina; why did his conclusion not get publicized more and utilized in Paterno's defense and spark serious media reconsideration of the "accepted" narrative; approximately when did Fina publicize his conclusion (month/year)?

2. Part of the case against Paterno involved an e-mail that Curley sent to someone. I think he used the word "coach" to refer to someone, and it was assumed by those who wanted evidence against Paterno, that "coach" referred to Paterno. We all were hoping Curley would get to testify, in court, as to the meaning of the e-mail and the identity of "coach." Did that ever get clarified?

1. From what I can tell, the original source of Fina's comments is this 2013 "60 Minutes Sports" interview (Frank Fina was one of the OAG prosecutors for the Sandusky case):

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sandusky-prosecutors-penn-state-put-schools-prestige-above-abuse/

I would imagine that Fina's credibility tailspin stemming from "porngate" could be a reason he's not referred to more frequently (feel free to do a web search for porngate to learn more about it... though that may not be the best search term to use).

2. Curley stipulated that "coach" was Joe Paterno during his testimony in the Spanier trial (which is unsurprising, given the power/chain-of-command dynamic between the two). I haven't seen a full transcript of the testimony, but I did see @JmmyW provide a couple excerpts in an earlier thread; perhaps he'd be able to illuminate that part of Curley's testimony further (or anyone else who has purchased a copy of the Spanier trial transcripts)?
 
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I just now read the transcript of the CBS story you provided. There is that "quote" again, the one that eliminates two important words -- "In hindsight." As to your answer to my second question, does that admission that "coach" is Paterno not provide evidence that Paterno was aware/involved more than Paterno admitted? I forget the exact nature of the e-mail. Perhaps someone can provide that information.
 
Come to think of it, there was another Curley e-mail (to Schultz or Spanier, I think) that had the phrase... "after talking it over with Joe..." and then there is something about deciding not to report Sandusky to the police. Did an elaboration/explanation for that comment come out in Curley's testimony at trial? Paterno's detractors used that as evidence of a Paterno involvement in a cover-up.
 
I just now read the transcript of the CBS story you provided. There is that "quote" again, the one that eliminates two important words -- "In hindsight." As to your answer to my second question, does that admission that "coach" is Paterno not provide evidence that Paterno was aware/involved more than Paterno admitted? I forget the exact nature of the e-mail. Perhaps someone can provide that information.

There are two major instances (I don't know if there were any others?) of Coach Paterno publicly discussing his knowledge of any "prior allegations" involving Sandusky.

The first was his Grand Jury testimony for the Sandusky trial:

GJ testimony:
Q: Other than the incident that Mike McQueary reported to you, do you know in any way, through rumor, direct knowledge or any other fashion, of any other inappropriate sexual conduct by Jerry Sandusky with young boys?

Mr. Paterno: I do not know of anything else that Jerry would be involved in of that nature, no. I do not know of it.


Joe knew about the 1998 incident at the time he was giving that testimony, but he knew that it was not "inappropriate sexual conduct by Jerry Sandusky with young boys" (as he knew that the '98 allegation was completely unfounded along with having witnessed Sandusky's stellar behavior around children for years). So, Joe's testimony is completely truthful, even if some mistakenly construed it as Paterno claiming he had no knowledge of the '98 incident.

The second was via an interview with Sally Jenkins of the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/sports/paterno-interview/):

JENKINS: People have speculated that you had knowledge of the 1998 police investigation. You didn't hear any whispers, rumors, reports before Mike McQueary spoke to you in 2002?

PATERNO: I had never heard a thing.

In my opinion, this answer cannot be taken at face value for a number of reasons:

1) The interview was conducted on Jan. 12-13, 2012, when Paterno was at the end of his mental faculties/memory capabilites (Paterno would pass away on Jan. 22, 2012). It's possible he didn't recall his knowledge of/participation in the 1998 incident at the time, or that he otherwise didn't fully appreciate the question.

2) The media had already established the narrative that Jerry Sandusky was a pedophile and child abuser, and that Joe Paterno (along with C/S/S) had allowed Sandusky to commit abuse unabated. A reporter for the Washington Post would certainly not publish anything that strayed from that narrative, so who knows what Jenkins actually asked and what Paterno actually answered before the interview material was edited and published.

In total, it's clear that Joe Paterno knew about the 1998 incident at least by 2001, but more likely as it happened in 1998 (it's ridiculous to think that Curley wouldn't have kept Paterno apprised of the situation). However, he was completely honest and upright (as he always was) when discussing his role/knowledge as the "scandal" was breaking.

It's unclear the extent of Paterno's involvement in the decision not to forward MM's "report" to DPW/CYS (whether it was Paterno's suggestion not go to DPW/CYS or if he merely approved of it when Curley brought the suggestion to him). I suppose there's a third option of Paterno disagreeing with Curley's suggestion to not go to DPW/CYS, and Curley telling Schultz and Spanier that he thought best not to go to DPW/CYS anyway, but I don't think it likely that Curley would go against Paterno's advice/wishes like that.

As Sandusky is clearly innocent of being a pedophile/child abuser, the decision of Paterno/Curley/Schultz/Spanier not to go to DPW/CYS does not constitute a cover-up, as they made that decision based on their knowledge of Sandusky not being a risk to children and their knowledge of MM's credibility (i.e., there was nothing to cover up).
 
"after talking it over with Joe" is another of those pieces of "evidence" that is incomplete without any context. Those that set the narrative made an assumption of what the conversation was about. Now I know this may seem crazy, but the conversation with Joe could've been a review of what MM told Joe since that was what started the discussion among the admin. Maybe just a review of what MM told Joe, what MM told Curley/Schultz.. and after discussion Curley came to the decision to not report to DPW. I'm not sure why it became "obvious" that Joe talked Curley out of reporting other than the hyperbole that Joe was the most powerful man in State College and he made all the decisions about everything.. Joe explained he didn't know what to do with this type of information and he passed it to the admin who would know how to handle something like that plus Sandusky didn't work for him and wasn't a PSU employee..

As for the 1998 incident, Joe made a mention of something about a rumor in the grand jury presentment. If confidentiality held by DPW in 1998, Joe wouldn't have been told anything. If he heard of anything it may have been that there was some kind of investigation but details could not legally be told to him. If he knew of anything, it was of an unfounded case, so it would be completely true that he knew of no other sexual abuse by Sandusky because there wasn't anything at that point.
 
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I just now read the transcript of the CBS story you provided. There is that "quote" again, the one that eliminates two important words -- "In hindsight." As to your answer to my second question, does that admission that "coach" is Paterno not provide evidence that Paterno was aware/involved more than Paterno admitted? I forget the exact nature of the e-mail. Perhaps someone can provide that information.
It was Joe, but nobody really knows to what extent he was really informed. That is a pretty gray area but TC certainly didn't act or testify that Joe was pulling the strings in any way. It would have been real easy for them to point to Joe and they didn't. It kind of makes you think he was loosely informed, but it's just a guess.
 
Did any actual evidence ever come to light that establishes the motive for anyone's actions or inactions as it relates to the football program? Was it not just an assumption that the supposed cover-up was to protect the university and football program from bad publicity? A second question is this: The Paterno family hired a 3-person team (included ex-governor Thornburgh) to review the Freeh Report. That report was dismissed by critics because of who paid for it. I never came across any comment by the Paterno critics that made the same kind of connection between the Freeh Report and the PSU Board of Trustees. After firing Paterno, the Board surely had a hope (a motive) that the Freeh investigators would find evidence that supported its firing decision. So, why is the Freeh Report any more credible than the Thornburgh report? Was there any substantive suspicion expressed by the Paterno critics of the veracity of the report because of who paid for it?
 
I have been a long-time member of this board and have posted a fair number of times over the years. The frequency of my posts has greatly lessened in the last few years because of Sandusky-Paterno situation fatigue; i.e., I've not kept up on the details of the scandal as many of you have [because I came to my conclusion (that Joe is completely innocent of wrongdoing, although, in retrospect, he admittedly would do a couple things differently; i.e., he made an honest mistake) years ago and didn't think it a useful activity to spend my time following the day-to-day happenings]. I want to pose two questions that are going to sound silly to most of you (like, where has this guy been?).

1. Somewhere along the line, I came across something that indicated that someone called Fina declared that he could find no evidence that Paterno was involved in a cover-up (but, he should have done more than he did). Could someone elaborate on this? Who is Fina; why did his conclusion not get publicized more and utilized in Paterno's defense and spark serious media reconsideration of the "accepted" narrative; approximately when did Fina publicize his conclusion (month/year)?

2. Part of the case against Paterno involved an e-mail that Curley sent to someone. I think he used the word "coach" to refer to someone, and it was assumed by those who wanted evidence against Paterno, that "coach" referred to Paterno. We all were hoping Curley would get to testify, in court, as to the meaning of the e-mail and the identity of "coach." Did that ever get clarified?
This constant blather from some of you is exhausting. just sayin.
 
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1) The interview was conducted on Jan. 12-13, 2012, when Paterno was at the end of his mental faculties/memory capabilites (Paterno would pass away on Jan. 22, 2012). It's possible he didn't recall his knowledge of/participation in the 1998 incident at the time, or that he otherwise didn't fully appreciate the question.

I'm currently dealing with my father-in-law who is in the latter (if not last) stages of multiple cancers. This rings very true from what I am observing right now. Except I'd substitute "likely" or "certainly" for "possible" above. My FIL's alert--but stuff from his past keeps popping up--for example, he kept asking about a halftrack he had to fix (he was an Army mechanic in Korea during the Korean War). Some of this may well have been happening during the last 6 months of Joe's life--but certainly by the last two weeks.
 
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"after talking it over with Joe" is another of those pieces of "evidence" that is incomplete without any context. Those that set the narrative made an assumption of what the conversation was about. Now I know this may seem crazy, but the conversation with Joe could've been a review of what MM told Joe since that was what started the discussion among the admin. Maybe just a review of what MM told Joe, what MM told Curley/Schultz.. and after discussion Curley came to the decision to not report to DPW. I'm not sure why it became "obvious" that Joe talked Curley out of reporting other than the hyperbole that Joe was the most powerful man in State College and he made all the decisions about everything.. Joe explained he didn't know what to do with this type of information and he passed it to the admin who would know how to handle something like that plus Sandusky didn't work for him and wasn't a PSU employee..

As for the 1998 incident, Joe made a mention of something about a rumor in the grand jury presentment. If confidentiality held by DPW in 1998, Joe wouldn't have been told anything. If he heard of anything it may have been that there was some kind of investigation but details could not legally be told to him. If he knew of anything, it was of an unfounded case, so it would be completely true that he knew of no other sexual abuse by Sandusky because there wasn't anything at that point.

"after talking it over with Joe". I suspect Curley and Joe compared notes on what MM told the two of them. Curley was probably noting the inconsistencies in MM's story from his family, to Joe to Curley and Schultz.

He also probably asked Joe if he'd ever seen anything himself that might incriminate JS. The answer was "no". So, if that's the case, a very minor event.

But Freeh wanted to hang Joe because the BOT (who was paying him) wanted to justify their firing of Joe. So that is why this email became a talking point for Freeh. This was the key to framing joe paterno.
 
"after talking it over with Joe". I suspect Curley and Joe compared notes on what MM told the two of them. Curley was probably noting the inconsistencies in MM's story from his family, to Joe to Curley and Schultz.

He also probably asked Joe if he'd ever seen anything himself that might incriminate JS. The answer was "no". So, if that's the case, a very minor event.

But Freeh wanted to hang Joe because the BOT (who was paying him) wanted to justify their firing of Joe. So that is why this email became a talking point for Freeh. This was the key to framing joe paterno.


That monkey fell out of the tree with Freeh's admission about his "opinions" and the BoT admitting Joe did nothing wrong.
 
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Joe was a football coach and everyone in the world knows they win at all costs. With that in mind, it makes sense that there was a cover up to protect the football programs reputation.

Anyone who thinks someone could side with or protect a pedophile is propagating a lie. No one could do this privately, much less in a conspiratorial manner.

No one ever looks at it from THIS angle.
 
Joe was a football coach and everyone in the world knows they win at all costs. With that in mind, it makes sense that there was a cover up to protect the football programs reputation.

Anyone who thinks someone could side with or protect a pedophile is propagating a lie. No one could do this privately, much less in a conspiratorial manner.

No one ever looks at it from THIS angle.

Well, The State not only FRAUDULENTLY claimed that Mike McQueary would testified to the Grand Jury, and would do the same at-trial, that he "saw" and "eyewitnessed" the sexual assault anal-rape of the child in their Indicting Documents as the "probable cause" for their Indictments, BUT also FRAUDULENTLY claimed that Mike McQueary told his father (twice) and Dr. Dranov WHILE THE RAPE WAS IN PROGRESS that the child was being anally-raped by Sandusky at Lasch, yet the filed NO CHARGES of Obstruction of Justice against John McQueary, Dr. Dranov or Mike McQueary for what is called "Accessory After the Fact" in most locals, but is prosecuted under the "OoJ Code" in PA, for not reporting what you absolutely and unequivocally know to be a clear CRIME in progress, let alone the absurdity of not reporting the ANAL-RAPE OF A 10 YEAR OLD CHILD IN PROGRESS! Just think about how UTTERLY ABSURD the State's Case is that they went after third-party witnesses who had no obligation to report the incident under 2001 PA CPSL codes, but they brought NO CHARGES against parties who are beyond clearly guilty of the insanely serious Felony Crime of "Accessory After the Fact" (punishable up to holding them just as guilty, and to the same sentence, as the perpetrator in most locales!) for intentionally not REPORTING WHAT THEY KNEW TO BE A CRIME IN PROGRESS, let alone the crime of not reporting the anal-rape of a 10 year old child in-progress, if "The State's claimed version of events in their Indicting Documents" is to be believed!!!

Think about this for a second and tell me it makes ANY SENSE WHATSOEVER -- precisely which non-corrupt Law Enforcement and Justice entity brings NO CHARGES against the most insanely serious LAW BREAKERS according to the State's very own version, but instead elects to bring charges against AFTER THE FACT hearers of the incident (making them a "hearsay reporters") with ZERO OBLIGATION to forward their "hearsay report" to anyone given it was WELL AFTER THE FACT and NOT WHILE IN-PROGRESS (which would make them "hearsay reporters" with no obligation to report anything), but WHO ACTUALLY DID make a "hearsay" third-party REPORT to The Second Mile, one of DPW's largest "Agents" in the State in regards to Child Care and Welfare, which actually qualified as a Report to DPW under PA CPSL given TSM's legal relationship with DPW and its County-Level CYS Office!

Again, how does it make any sense whatsoever for Law Enforcement to pursue MALICIOUS PROSECUTIONS against party's that had no obligations under PA Law, while completely IGNORING massively serious Felony "Accessory After the Fact" Obstruction of Justice Charges against 3 Separate Individuals who INTENTIONALLY and WANTONLY failed to report THE ANAL-RAPE OF A 10 YEAR OLD CHILD IN PROGRESS according to the corrupt OAG's (i.e.,"The State's") very own version of events?!?!?! Huh??? WTF??? The ever-corrupt PA OAG has credible evidence to believe MM saw and eyewitnessed the anal-rape of a 10 year old child IN PROGRESS and then proceeded to tell his father (twice) and Dr. Dranov that a 10 Year Old Child was being anally-raped IN-PROGRESS at Lasch...AND NOT A ONE OF THEM CALLED POLICE/911 TO REPORT THE CRIME IN-PROGRESS (an insanely serious crime in, and of, ITSELF)....but the ever-brilliant OAG elected to bring NO CHARGES against the parties who actually broke the law, and violated extremely serious FELONY CODES, but instead elected to bring charges against parties who violated NO LAW in regards to their possession of a NON-REQUIRED-REPORT of what would be an AFTER THE FACT "hearsay report" and who also DID ACTUALLY make a qualifying DPW Report under PA CPSL of their "hearsay report" to TSM, the responsible "Care & Custody Entity" for the child in question and holder of a direct "AGENCY RELATIONSHIP" with PA DPW??? Yea, that makes a lot of sense - according to your very own made up bull$hit, fraudulent account, you decided to ignore the actual law-breakers in regards to the "REPORTING" of the incident and instead attack innocent party's who broke no PA Law in regards to the "REPORTING" of the incident.....talk about "Keystone Cops" bull$hit.....PATHETIC!!!!!
 
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Joe was a football coach and everyone in the world knows they win at all costs. With that in mind, it makes sense that there was a cover up to protect the football programs reputation.

Anyone who thinks someone could side with or protect a pedophile is propagating a lie. No one could do this privately, much less in a conspiratorial manner.

No one ever looks at it from THIS angle.

Exactly. The decision on behalf of Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier to not take the 2001 "report" to DPW/CYS in order to shield the Penn State University/football program from undue investigations/scrutiny was made with their absolute (and correct) confidence that Jerry Sandusky was no risk at all to children (much less a pedophile or child abuser).
 
Exactly. The decision on behalf of Paterno, Curley, Schultz, and Spanier to not take the 2001 "report" to DPW/CYS in order to shield the Penn State University/football program from undue investigations/scrutiny was made with their absolute (and correct) confidence that Jerry Sandusky was no risk at all to children (much less a pedophile or child abuser).
(1) Once Paterno reported to CSS, he was and should have been out of the loop. He had no legal responsibility to report anything to DPW/CYS. As is pretty standard in CSA situationss for a non-witness.
(2) There were absolutely ZERO convictions on anything regarding any kind of conspiracy or anything to do with shielding the football program. ZERO. In fact one of the prosecutors, Fina, stated that Paterno definitely was NOT involved in a coverup. CSS were charged with this to be sure. But either acquitted or the charges dropped.
(3) I think they did err in thinking there was no real problem here.
 
(1) Once Paterno reported to CSS, he was and should have been out of the loop. He had no legal responsibility to report anything to DPW/CYS. As is pretty standard in CSA situationss for a non-witness.
(2) There were absolutely ZERO convictions on anything regarding any kind of conspiracy or anything to do with shielding the football program. ZERO. In fact one of the prosecutors, Fina, stated that Paterno definitely was NOT involved in a coverup. CSS were charged with this to be sure. But either acquitted or the charges dropped.
(3) I think they did err in thinking there was no real problem here.

(1) I suppose Curley could have elected to keep Coach Paterno out of the loop of the final decison making, but given who was really the cause of (and in many ways, accountable for) the success and well-being of the athletic department, it's not surprising why he didn't (instead going to Paterno for direction on or approval of the decision not to report to DPW/CYS).

(2) As the verdicts in the Sandusky case (among several others throughout history) indicate, the judgments passed in the court of law have nothing to do with what actually happened. I do agree that there was no "cover-up", as there was no untoward behavior to "cover up", but there was certainly motivation to prevent an unwarranted investigation by DPW/CYS that could only cause bad publicity for Penn State.

(3) I think their biggest error was trusting that MM would be a loyal and a "good soldier" and not discuss the 2001 incident with anyone outside of Penn State. If they had had better foresight, they would have directed MM as such.
 
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(1) I suppose Curley could have elected to keep Coach Paterno out of the loop of the final decison making, but given who was really the cause of (and in many ways, accountable for) the success and well-being of the athletic department, it's not surprising why he didn't (instead going to Paterno for direction on or approval of the decision not to report to DPW/CYS).

(2) As the verdicts in the Sandusky case (among several others throughout history) indicate, the judgments passed in the court of law have nothing to do with what actually happened. I do agree that there was no "cover-up", as there was no untoward behavior to "cover up", but there was certainly motivation to prevent an unwarranted investigation by DPW/CYS that could only cause bad publicity for Penn State.

(3) I think their biggest error was trusting that MM would be a loyal and a "good soldier" and not discuss the 2001 incident with anyone outside of Penn State. If they had had better foresight, they would have directed MM as such.
Had they done 3, it *would* have been a conspiracy.
 
"after talking it over with Joe" is another of those pieces of "evidence" that is incomplete without any context.

Agree 100%. Curley could have been reviewing his plans with Joe but that doesn't mean that Joe talked Curley out of reporting to DPW. Like you said he could have simply been asking Joe to recap what MM told him. We don't know. That's why I'd like him to speak/elaborate.

I guess it's possible that Curley took the hit for Joe because he knew that he was going down anyway. But there's absolutely no evidence that this was the case.

One thing is pretty clear. MM didn't provide details of sexual assault to anybody (Dad, Dranov, Joe, Curley, or Shultz). If he did, all 5 of them lied and that seems unlikely.
 
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Had they done 3, it *would* have been a conspiracy.

A conspiracy to do what?

Not to "endanger the welfare of children", as there they knew there was no danger at hand.

Not to "fail to report", as those laws did not yet exist. It's certainly quite possible that this all would have played out differently if they had. Then the best decision probably would have been to throw Sandusky under the bus, forwarding the "report" to DPW/CYS and terminating Sandusky's retirement agreement (along with some sort of financial settlement with him and non-disclosure agreements to go away quietly).

Conspiracy to obstruct justice? Only if they told MM to keep it in house while there was an active investigation going on, which there's no indication any of them knew about Corbett's "investigation" (read political vendetta) before the Grand Jury Presentment.

The only thing they would have been "conspiring" to do is to treat the 2001 "report" with proper wisdom and care and not unduly bringing some kind of legal investigation.

Given who the "report" was coming from, though, with perfect foresight, they would have realized that MM wouldn't have kept the incident in-house no matter what they told him.

In that case, the best course of action would have probably been to do what I outlined above if the "failure to report" laws had existed.
 
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Agree 100%. Curley could have been reviewing his plans with Joe but that doesn't mean that Joe talked Curley out of reporting to DPW. Like you said he could have simply been asking Joe to recap what MM told him. We don't know. That's why I'd like him to speak/elaborate.

I guess it's possible that Curley took the hit for Joe because he knew that he was going down anyway. But there's absolutely no evidence that this was the case.

One thing is pretty clear. MM didn't provide details of sexual assault to anybody (Dad, Dranov, Joe, Curley, or Shultz). If he did, all 5 of them lied and that seems unlikely.

If you look at the actual emails and notes that Freeh uses to damn Joe, Curley, Shultz, and Spanier. It is quite clear McQueary did not report a sexual assault. Seriously, who tries to cover up a sexual assault by notifying the offenders charity and recommending that maybe he get help. They knew Jerry was an old-school guy who grew up in a rec center where boys and men were showering together all the time, but the proud and naive Jerry seemed unaware that times were changing. The reason they considered getting DPW involved in the first place was that an outside agency may need to explain to Jerry why showering alone with a boy is not appropriate. It was not so they could conduct some child abuse investigation.

The plan was all along for Curley to confront Sandusky and only get DPW involved in Sandusky tells him off. A few days later Curley starts getting cold feet and considers maybe just having DPW confront Sandusky. Then, after talking it over with Joe, he decides yes he will confront Sandusky. Based on Joe's subsequent attitude, its likely he told Curley something alone the lines of "It's your decision, why are you coming to me?" Pathetic, how Louie Freeh misinterpreted this as proof of a cover up.
 
Come to think of it, there was another Curley e-mail (to Schultz or Spanier, I think) that had the phrase... "after talking it over with Joe..." and then there is something about deciding not to report Sandusky to the police. Did an elaboration/explanation for that comment come out in Curley's testimony at trial? Paterno's detractors used that as evidence of a Paterno involvement in a cover-up.

This needs to be put to bed once and for all! I know this is long, but please make the effort to comprehend what they say in their own words?

Tim wrote: "...I am uncomfortable with what we agreed were the next steps. I am having trouble with going to everyone, but the person involved. I think I would be more comfortable meeting with the person and tell him about the information we received...."

Breaking it down, had Tim said, I am having trouble with going to anyone, but the person involved, the narrative put forth by Lyin Louis would hold water. It would mean that Tim was only comfortable going to Sandusky and no one else.

However, what he says means the exact opposite. "I am having trouble going to everyone, but..." means he doesn't feel right about going to TSM and/or DPW without also adding Sandusky among those to be informed. There was nothing exclusive about what he said. He was simply including Jerry in the loop.

To which Spanier replied: "This approach is acceptable to me. It requires you to go a step further and means your conversation will be all the more difficult, but I admire your willingness to do that and I am supportive....The approach you outline is humane and a reasonable way to proceed."

Spanier clearly understood Tim to mean what I'm suggesting. First, he's acknowledging that Tim's proposal would involve an additional step. For the Freeh narrative to make sense, there would have been one less step...not one more. Furthermore, Spanier is acknowledging that what Tim proposed would be an awkward conversation. He then asserts that speaking with Jerry first was both humane and reasonable.

Schultz then adds further confirmation: "Tim and Graham, this is a more humane and upfront way to handle this...." Bringing Jerry up to speed, rather than going behind his back, is clearly what he's referring to as "upfront".

The misinterpretation of Tim's email (reading "everyone" to mean 'anyone') is the basis for Freeh's conclusions about JVP. Correctly interpreting what Tim wrote, IMO, destroys that narrative!

The decision to involve DPW was always on the table and it was always conditional upon Jerry's behavior going forward.....IF/THEN.

Schultz wrote the following the day he and Tim met with Joe and spoke with Courtney: "-unless he “confesses” to having a problem, TMC will indicate we need to have DPW review the matter as an independent agency concerned with child welfare."

Curley wrote: "...Also, we feel a responsibility at some point soon to inform his organization and maybe the other one about the situation. If he is cooperative, we would work with him to handle informing the organization. If not, we do not have a choice and will inform the two groups..."

Spanier wrote: "....The only downside for us is if our message is not “heard” and acted upon, and we then become vulnerable for not having reported it. But that can be assessed down the road...."

Each reference made to involving DPW was dependent upon what Jerry would do, not what he had done.

If you still have doubts as to whether or not they thought Jerry had abused a boy, please read Schultz's note again, but instead of "having a problem", substitute 'sexually abusing a child' For that to be what he meant, he would have been proposing that if Jerry admitted to being a sexual predator, it would not be necessary to involve DPW. However, if Jerry denied abusing a child, they would have to involve the authorities. Clearly, that's asinine!

Now read Schultz's note again and insert "boundary issues" for "a problem". If he admitted his behavior was inappropriate and could be problematic for them, they could work with him. However, if he denied having a problem, they would have no choice but to wash their hands of him to protect the university.

They knew about '98. They knew Jerry had boundary issues. They knew Jerry was a loose cannon and that showering alone with TSM was a lawsuit waiting to happen. Jerry didn't have to be guilty. One angry mom would be all it would take to make them vulnerable in a civil suit.

Finally, please review what Spanier wrote. You can't become what you already are. He's saying that if Jerry doesn't go along with their decision prohibiting him from bringing kids to the facilities, another incident could make their decision look bad. By definition, it means as long as Jerry did go along with the plan, they would not be vulnerable. If they thought a boy had been abused, they would already be vulnerable should the boy/his family report to authorities. Whether Jerry got with the program from that point going forward wouldn't matter one bit. Their vulnerability would be open ended as the party with the deepest pockets.

Thus, Spanier did not think they were vulnerable for not reporting the incident at hand...he did not think any abuse had occurred. However, the potential of a civil suit stemming from a future he said/he said scenario (like '98) would leave them vulnerable. In other words, for them to become vulnerable, another incident would have to occur.

Schultz spoke to this exact scenario in his notes:

1) Tell J.S. to avoid bringing children alone into Lasch Bldg.d

It should be obvious that he would have never used "avoid" if he thought Jerry was abusing kids in their showers. That's just not reasonable. He would have been far more demonstrative. However, the most important word there is "alone". In a he said/he said scenario, the mere accusation of sexual impropriety with a child would almost certainly result in a settlement. The prevention of this possibility was their entire focus.
 
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However, what he says means the exact opposite. "I am having trouble going to everyone, but..." means he doesn't feel right about going to TSM and/or DPW without also adding Sandusky among those to be informed. There was nothing exclusive about what he said. He was simply including Jerry in the loop.

To which Spanier replied: "This approach is acceptable to me. It requires you to go a step further and means your conversation will be all the more difficult, but I admire your willingness to do that and I am supportive....The approach you outline is humane and a reasonable way to proceed."

Spanier clearly understood Tim to mean what I'm suggesting. First, he's acknowledging that Tim's proposal would involve an additional step. For the Freeh narrative to make sense, there would have been one less step...not one more. Furthermore, Spanier is acknowledging that what Tim proposed would be an awkward conversation. He then asserts that speaking with Jerry first was both humane and reasonable.

Schultz then adds further confirmation: "Tim and Graham, this is a more humane and upfront way to handle this...." Bringing Jerry up to speed, rather than going behind his back, is clearly what he's referring to as "upfront".

The misinterpretation of Tim's email (reading "everyone" to mean 'anyone') is the basis for Freeh's conclusions about JVP. Correctly interpreting what Tim wrote, IMO, destroys that narrative!

The decision to involve DPW was always on the table and it was always conditional upon Jerry's behavior going forward.....IF/THEN.

Schultz wrote the following the day he and Tim met with Joe and spoke with Courtney: "-unless he “confesses” to having a problem, TMC will indicate we need to have DPW review the matter as an independent agency concerned with child welfare."
.

It was fine IMO that Curley confronted Sandusky. The question is why did he stop there? Did Jerry convince him that there was nothing sexual?
 
It was fine IMO that Curley confronted Sandusky. The question is why did he stop there? Did Jerry convince him that there was nothing sexual?
I believe I read either in the GJ presentment or the Freeh report that Curley said that he was convinced that nothing sexual occurred after meeting with Jerry. However, it should be noted that contacting DPW was always an optional step and always conditional upon Sandusky's future behavior. The email chain I'm referencing takes place prior to Tim meeting with either JS or Raykovitz.
 
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It was fine IMO that Curley confronted Sandusky. The question is why did he stop there? Did Jerry convince him that there was nothing sexual?

The reality is that Cutley clearly and FACTUALLY did NOT "stop there" - he not only made a FORMAL REPORT OUTSIDE OF PSU to the State-Agent entity RESPONSIBLE & ACCOUNTABLE for the child in question, but also told this State-Agent, State-Licensed & State-Regulated MANDATORY REPORTER UNDER PA CPSL that PSU was TERMINATING and SANCTIONING their privileges at PSU due to THEIR FAILURE to properly supervise and administer their Founder's TSM-related activities at PSU (a Founder who exclusively still held "Founder Status" under TSM's Charter & Bylaws as the most-powerful, regulatory-listed "Control Person" at the Charity at the time of the incident!). Utterly & completely FALSE to claim Cutley or C/S&S "stopped there" in reference to halting their actions after speaking w/ Sandusky and not making a FORMAL REPORT of the incident OUTSIDE PSU in a manner that qualifies as a "Suspected CSA Report" under PA Child Protective Services Law, the applicable code for establishing such reports!!!
 
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The reality is that Cutley clearly and FACTUALLY did NOT "stop there" - he not only made a FORMAL REPORT OUTSIDE OF PSU to the State-Agent entity RESPONSIBLE & ACCOUNTABLE for the child in question, but also told this State-Agent, State-Licensed & State-Regulated MANDATORY REPORTER UNDER PA CPSL that PSU was TERMINATING and SANCTIONING their privileges at PSU due to THEIR FAILURE to properly supervise and administer their Founder's TSM-related activities at PSU (a Founder who exclusively still held "Founder Status" under TSM's Charter & Bylaws as the most-powerful, regulatory-listed "Control Person" at the Charity at the time of the incident!). Utterly & completely FALSE to claim Cutley or C/S&S "stopped there" in reference to halting their actions after speaking w/ Sandusky and not making a FORMAL REPORT of the incident OUTSIDE PSU in a manner that qualifies as a "Suspected CSA Report" under PA Child Protective Services Law, the applicable code for establishing such reports!!!
CURLEY DIDN'T CALL THE POLICE, DPW, OR CPS
 
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CURLEY DIDN'T CALL THE POLICE, DPW, OR CPS
He considers Jerry's charity DPW in this case because of Jack being a mandatory reporter. It's the six degrees of Kevin Bacon way of reporting...close enough for him. He fails to realize that if they made a formal report that they would have been actually covered no matter what the OAG wanted to do.
 
He considers Jerry's charity DPW in this case because of Jack being a mandatory reporter. It's the six degrees of Kevin Bacon way of reporting...close enough for him. He fails to realize that if they made a formal report that they would have been actually covered no matter what the OAG wanted to do.

Agree. That said, I don't understand how JM, Dranov, Raykovitz, and TSM walk away unscathed.
 
CURLEY DIDN'T CALL THE POLICE, DPW, OR CPS

Curley did make a REPORT OUTSIDE PSU that qualifies as FORMAL REPORT OF SUSPECTED CSA to PA's Child Protection Agency under the GOVERNING LAW FOR SUCH REPORTS, the Pennsylvania CHILD PROTECTIVE SERVICES LAW! You are utterly full of $hit that PSU & Curley did not make a FORMAL REPORT OF THE INCIDENT OUTSIDE PSU which QUALIFIES as a REPORT OF SUSPECTED CHILD ABUSE to PA Child Protective Services under the Code creating and governing such REPORTS, the Pennsylvania Child Protective Services LAW!
 
Agree. That said, I don't understand how JM, Dranov, Raykovitz, and TSM walk away unscathed.
To be honest the only reason I can think is CSS knew of a prior incident and the prosecution needed MM. JM and Doctor D didn't know about 98 and have notes/emails on it. Bottom line IMO is it was more being naive to Jerry than a cover up....losing their jobs would have done the trick, but people wanted blood since it was so high profile. They should have never went to Jerry to see if he would admit to a problem. How many pedophiles do you think would own that? I'm guessing not too many.
 
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He didn't have to. No law required him to.:)

I'm no lawyer but I know that C/S/S were all found guilty of failure to report. The law obviously required him to report, at least in the eyes of a jury (GS) and judge.
 
He considers Jerry's charity DPW in this case because of Jack being a mandatory reporter. It's the six degrees of Kevin Bacon way of reporting...close enough for him. He fails to realize that if they made a formal report that they would have been actually covered no matter what the OAG wanted to do.

No Doofus, bull$hit-boy who routinely attempts the ad hominem logic fallacy of INCORRECTLY characterizing other's positions - i.e., MISCHARACTERIZING others statements! Jack Raykovitz are "AGENCY PARTIES" to DPW under the prescriptions of PA Child Protective Services LAW. This goes SIGNIFICANTLY beyond all employees of TSM being "Mandatory Reporters" because their full-time DAILY JOB involves work with Children, you f'ing clown! An entire SECTION of the PA CPSL Code is dedicated to what QUALIFIES a person or entity as having an "AGENCY RELATIONSHIP" with DPW and Jack Raykovitz & TSM most definitely had an "AGENCY RELATIONSHIP" with DPW given that they were one of DPW's biggest, if not THE BIGGEST, CONTRACTORS to DPW in regards to DPW Subcontracted Childcare and Child Welfare contracts related to DPW Administered Programs such as Adoption Placements and issues, Foster-Parenting Placements and issues, Group Home Placements and issues, General Childcare Programs and Studies Administered by DPW and their County-Level CYS Offices, etc., etc., etc...

In other words, you are DEAD WRONG and full of INACCURATE BULL$HIT aimed at discrediting others (i.e., "ad hominem" attacks) yet again as per usual - go figure!
 
No Doofus, bull$hit-boy who routinely attempts the ad hominem logic fallacy of INCORRECTLY characterizing other's positions - i.e., MISCHARACTERIZING others statements! Jack Raykovitz are "AGENCY PARTIES" to DPW under the prescriptions of PA Child Protective Services LAW. This goes SIGNIFICANTLY beyond all employees of TSM being "Mandatory Reporters" because their full-time DAILY JOB involves work with Children, you f'ing clown! An entire SECTION of the PA CPSL Code is dedicated to what QUALIFIES a person or entity as having an "AGENCY RELATIONSHIP" with DPW and Jack Raykovitz & TSM most definitely had an "AGENCY RELATIONSHIP" with DPW given that they were one of DPW's biggest, if not THE BIGGEST, CONTRACTORS to DPW in regards to DPW Subcontracted Childcare and Child Welfare contracts related to DPW Administered Programs such as Adoption Placements and issues, Foster-Parenting Placements and issues, Group Home Placements and issues, General Childcare Programs and Studies Administered by DPW and their County-Level CYS Offices, etc., etc., etc...

In other words, you are DEAD WRONG and full of INACCURATE BULL$HIT aimed at discrediting others (i.e., "ad hominem" attacks) yet again as per usual - go figure!

LOL, that is why they never tried that line of defense. That is why they talked about DPW in particular....good try moron...but NOBODY is buying that BS line you are selling and I mean NOBODY.
 
I'm no lawyer but I know that C/S/S were all found guilty of failure to report. The law obviously required him to report, at least in the eyes of a jury (GS) and judge.


No, FTR was dropped. They were found "guilty" of endangering the welfare of children. How that miracle was accomplished is anyone's guess, since they did not oversee children. I suspect a cowardly jury, and a Judge who had instructions.
 
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