All joking aside, why did pitt football die?

[Madsol]

Nothing happened to it; the program is what it has been for most of the last 75+ years. Since 1940, Pitt's winning percentage is .507 (432-420-18). They had a great run from early mid 70's to early/mid 80's, but aside from that they're no better than UMD.

This. In modern football, Pitt is the definition of mediocre. They have managed to produce some very good individual players over the years, but never very good teams. An 80 year track record is certainly long enough to be able to gauge who Pitt is...a mediocre football program with an enormous little brother complex.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Pitt football is dead, but yet you guys cannot stop talking about it. Ironic.

Death is always an interesting topic. The Kennedy assassination, Marilyn Monroe, the Black Dahlia, Pitt football. They are subjects of unending fascination and possibilities.

 

[marshall23]

Nothing happened to it; the program is what it has been for most of the last 75+ years. Since 1940, Pitt's winning percentage is .507 (432-420-18). They had a great run from early mid 70's to early/mid 80's, but aside from that they're no better than UMD.

So lets apply some "Lair Logic": If you remove the half dozen excellent seasons like 2010,'75,'76,'79,'80. (as they do to Barkely's long runs) what does their average season look like since 1940?
368-412-17?

 

[indoorgolf]

True, but we have survived. They have not.

Who cares should be more focused on why a certain coach is 3-12 against the other 3 good teams in the Big Ten East.

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Who cares should be more focused on why a certain coach is 3-12 against the other 3 good teams in the Big Ten East.

Whoops. Sorry. We'll drop all other subjects and spend 24hrs a day meditating on this riddle.

 

[RU31trap]

The only time I was in Pittsburgh was when I drove through it in 1992. Do they have room on their campus to build a 45,000 seat stadium? I think that would be a good start.

 

[JWB389]

In all fairness, the 12-0 game in 2000 (?) was a huge win for Pitt and an embarrassment for Penn State.

12-0 was not even the most embarrassing loss that season. Toledo was. That was a bad Penn State team. The whole season was an embarrassment.

 

[jrd23psu]

IMHO, when they ore down the old stadium and signed up to play at Heinz it was strike one. At the core of any college team, is the student section. I watch the student section as much as I watch the team at home games.

I think this is a great point and really at the core of why they are where they are. College football is about the COLLEGE experience. Pitt tore that down and moved to a PROFESSIONAL stadium and tried to make CFB about NFL football and it's not. It's not even close. Ask anybody that has ever been to a CFB game and an NFL game what the difference is and they'll tell you it's not even close. To this day their fans still try to tell you that it's so great to play in an NFL stadium. Their coaches try to sell an NFL experience to CFB recruits. Recruits want that CFB experience. They have nothing good that CFB offers to sell to recruits anymore. Regional recruiting is no longer good enough for most programs anymore. You need to be able to go outside of your local recruiting footprint if you want to compete now and Pitt cannot do that. Their fans will tell you they can because they pull in a few lower rated recruits from FL but that's never going to cut it.

The key to success is being able to lock down your local recruiting footprint by bringing in the blue chip guys that you have there each year. Then you have to be able pull loads of blue chip talent from the surrounding areas that are adjacent to your local footprint. If you can extend your local footprint to include those adjacent areas then you're on your way. Then you need to be able to supplement those classes by sprinkling in some blue chip guys nationally. In order to do that you need to have a CFB experience to sell, which Pitt does not.

 

[Raffycorn]

Who cares should be more focused on why a certain coach is 3-12 against the other 3 good teams in the Big Ten East.

Who’s the third other good team in the Big Ten East?

 

[NittPicker]

The only time I was in Pittsburgh was when I drove through it in 1992. Do they have room to on their campus to build a 45,000 seat stadium? I think that would be a good start.

They did have the space but decided to go all in with basketball. Since the footprint for an indoor arena is smaller, Pitt would have been better off building a new football stadium on the site of the old one when the space was available then later finding space for hoops. Instead, they thought they would be able to market themselves as the Steelers' college team since they shared facilities. That hasn't worked out for them.

I believe the current Steelers' lease at Heinz Field runs through 2031. There have been reports of the Steelers and the stadium authority having disagreements over certain aspects of stadium management. The Steelers have 12 years to look into building an ultramodern stadium which they alone can control and reap the profits from. If they do decide to move, Pitt would be in serious trouble regarding where they would play. They alone could never generate enough revenue to make the stadium financially viable. Three Rivers Stadium lasted 30 years. Heinz Field will be 30 years old in 2031. If Heinz disappears I suppose Pitt could rent Gesling Stadium from CMU. The players and students could walk to the game and there would be no excuse for poor attendance.

 

[denniskembala]

Without a campus or stadium and years of mediocrity at best, it was inevitable, the economy, ACC, new culture, etc. etc. etc?

Joe Paterno, tired of the ever increasing demands of extortion to play them, simply stated we can spend the money better on our own programs.

The second reason, there is no market for the game. Economics 101.

 

[ApexLion]

IMHO, when they ore down the old stadium and signed up to play at Heinz it was strike one. At the core of any college team, is the student section. I watch the student section as much as I watch the team at home games.

The next was when they fired Wanny. Here is a Pitt legend who was fired by a dufus AD and then he hired a dufus coach. That led to Phil Bennett, Todd Graham, Keith Patterson, Paul Chryst, Joe Rudolf and now the Duzzer.

I am not sure if Beenett, patterson or Rudolph even coached one game. Of those, the longest tenur is Chryst, 3 years, who left for Wisconsin.

Also the continued rise of the PSU program, demographic population shift to south>decline of w.PA football, plus it's just not a great place to go to school. Pitt and NC State by me are very similar after visiting both for work and meeting their athletic and SID departments. Nice people but as a parent, why I would want my son to play at either place? Urban, dirty, so so academically, low budget (although NC State is raising more funds), chip on their shoulder about another university etc. It's second-rate in both in cases. I wish both well but you have to have something to market and ultimately seal the deal with great athletes and their families. Neither have it yet.

 

[Raffycorn]

They did have the space but decided to go all in with basketball. Since the footprint for an indoor arena is smaller, Pitt would have been better off building a new football stadium on the site of the old one when the space was available then later finding space for hoops. Instead, they thought they would be able to market themselves as the Steelers' college team since they shared facilities. That hasn't worked out for them.

I believe the current Steelers' lease at Heinz Field runs through 2031. There have been reports of the Steelers and the stadium authority having disagreements over certain aspects of stadium management. The Steelers have 12 years to look into building an ultramodern stadium which they alone can control and reap the profits from. If they do decide to move, Pitt would be in serious trouble regarding where they would play. They alone could never generate enough revenue to make the stadium financially viable. Three Rivers Stadium lasted 30 years. Heinz Field will be 30 years old in 2031. If Heinz disappears I suppose Pitt could rent Gesling Stadium from CMU. The players and students could walk to the game and there would be no excuse for poor attendance.

I agree that it’s inevitable for the Steelers to flee the city for Cranberry or another exurb - and, as a city resident, I say good riddance.

That said, I think the path forward for Pitt at that point would be to partner with an MLS expansion team and build a smaller-than-Heinz stadium in the city (maybe 35,000 or 40,000 seats) to share between Pitt and the new soccer team. I don’t think Highmark Stadium in Station Square is ever going to get to be big enough to become the home of an MLS team.

 

[Thomas1945]

I agree that it’s inevitable for the Steelers to flee the city for Cranberry or another exurb - and, as a city resident, I say good riddance.

That said, I think the path forward for Pitt at that point would be to partner with an MLS expansion team and build a smaller-than-Heinz stadium in the city (maybe 35,000 or 40,000 seats) to share between Pitt and the new soccer team. I don’t think Highmark Stadium in Station Square is ever going to get to be big enough to become the home of an MLS team.

It will probably of course be large enough to accommodate the horde of rabid fans that flock to Pitt home games.

 

[Kiber]

With many things in life there are usually several variables involved that all come together to form a "perfect storm" vs. a single polarizing point.

With the decline of pitt football many of these variables have already been mentioned:
> Move to BigEast which was a horrible football conference
> Tear down of pitt stadium and move into Heinz field and play in rented stadium
> Move into the ACC which has no recognition for pitt
> Decline of football throughout the entire WPIAL
> Bad coaching hires / decisions
> PSU moving into B1G sandwiched pitt directly between 2 B1G powerhouse
....
and my own personal one....
> The 1975 - 1985 period when pitt football was as good as any in the country there was no regulation of steroids. Go look up a Sports Illustrated article about John Kolb, Mike Webster and the Steeler OL and how they used to train and do steroids with the OL from Pitt. Look at the old film of those pitt teams during that era and those guys were physical monsters.

 

[Raffycorn]

It will probably of course be large enough to accommodate the horde of rabid fans that flock to Pitt home games.

I was curious, and it looks like in 2017 (a year where they didn’t have PSU or ND on the home schedule) they averaged right around 35,000 per game in paid attendance. Not that many people actually *showed up* to the games, of course, but a stadium right around 40,000 seats would probably be just about right for the amount of tickets they sell - which is the only number the beancounters care about.

 

[katchthis]

Indiana and Ohio State beg to differ.

Wisconsin has had some good tournament appearances too.

 

[katchthis]

The only time I was in Pittsburgh was when I drove through it in 1992. Do they have room on their campus to build a 45,000 seat stadium? I think that would be a good start.

Don't know the campus lay out like I once did, but the Peterson chewed up all the old stadium land. Only way to extend would be to buy a bunch of what I recall was lower end real estate just over The Hill. Would have to package a lot of purchases together. Would need a Walt Disney Orlando approach. Don't see the money to ever make that happen.

 

[Raffycorn]

Don't know the campus lay out like I once did, but the Peterson chewed up all the old stadium land. Only way to extend would be to buy a bunch of what I recall was lower end real estate just over The Hill. Would have to package a lot of purchases together. Would need a Walt Disney Orlando approach. Don't see the money to ever make that happen.

I think the old stadium footprint is now the arena, a lawn right next door to the arena, and a couple of dorm buildings.

The other alternative is, of course, if the VA hospital right next to the old stadium site ever closes and/or moves to a different location. I don’t know enough about the VA to guess as to when or if that would ever happen.

 

[katchthis]

I think the old stadium footprint is now the arena, a lawn right next door to the arena, and a couple of dorm buildings.

The other alternative is, of course, if the VA hospital right next to the old stadium site ever closes and/or moves to a different location. I don’t know enough about the VA to guess as to when or if that would ever happen.

Tear down the Cathedral of Learning. Occupies too much land that is now scarce, and more valuable.

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

The decline of the WPIAL has unmasked the lack of commitment of the Pitt administration. It used to be that Pitt could take a half-assed approach to football, because they had so many good players in their own backyard that wanted to stay home, but now that the numbers of truly good players is way down, that crutch is no longer helpful.

In order to attract non-hometown kids, you have to spend money on coaches, on stadiums, on image. Pitt has done none of that. And, they never will.

Several others posted other contributors. But if I had to pick one to say is right on, it’s THiS.

As non-PSU as it may be, I hope you’re wrong on the underlined part. I hope they take many a step to revitalize that program. And I’d like to see them whoop one of our decent (but not great) teams at some point. And I don’t mean play a decent game where we don’t perform and lose. I’d love to see PITT regain what it was-minus the cheating and BS.

Bring back (or keep) more first class football in PA and make them a real rival that’s worth playing. We want more marquis games, right? Most of our B1G games aren’t big draws.

Why wish them to be down so we can be better than a crappy team and have top PA kids (if not interested in PSU or if no space here) leaving the state and looking primarily to other B1G programs or conferences?

And I’d rather have PSU beat a quality Pitt team 70% of the time with great games and game day experiences than expect to always beat a crappy Pitt team that can’t get out of its own way and crappy game day experience. I’d like a healthy sense of rivalry instead of this bitter weirdness and jealousy.

 

[Glen]

If the question is serious, I think it's actually not the right question. The real question is "why was Pitt football ever good?" Pitt football has been mediocre in the modern era (post WWII) with the exception of a fluke period in the 70's and early 80's. They had a nice run then, but that was clearly the outlier in their history and otherwise they are what they always have been. Lots of schools can have a good run for a few years or decade, that doesn't make that the new normal.

The odd thing is people who think that 1970's Pitt was somehow a reasonable expectation of what the program "should be" or "is". It's fools gold for them to try to pursue that as some sort of attainable sustained standard.

You kinda forget 1961 - should have played for National Championship. You also forget the history of Pittsburgh. There was a lot of money in town until probably the 70s. There was a lot of money supporting the Oakland section and Pitt benefited.

There was talk of a national conference with UCLA. But they had these periods of emphasis vs de-emphasis of football (see Jock Sutherland). I would guess this academic vs big time football debate had as much to do with today’s situation as anything.

 

[DiehardPanther]

Several others posted other contributors. But if I had to pick one to say is right on, it’s THiS.

As non-PSU as it may be, I hope you’re wrong on the underlined part. I hope they take many a step to revitalize that program. And I’d like to see them whoop one of our decent (but not great) teams at some point. And I don’t mean play a decent game where we don’t perform and lose. I’d love to see PITT regain what it was-minus the cheating and BS.

Bring back (or keep) more first class football in PA and make them a real rival that’s worth playing. We want more marquis games, right? Most of our B1G games aren’t big draws.

Why wish them to be down so we can be better than a crappy team and have top PA kids (if not interested in PSU or if no space here) leaving the state and looking primarily to other B1G programs or conferences?

And I’d rather have PSU beat a quality Pitt team 70% of the time with great games and game day experiences than expect to always beat a crappy Pitt team that can’t get out of its own way and crappy game day experience. I’d like a healthy sense of rivalry instead of this bitter weirdness and jealousy.

Next year is last year we play, so it won’t matter.

 

[PS4814]

Three Rivers Stadium lasted 30 years. Heinz Field will be 30 years old in 2031.

Just about the time the taxpayers of PA will be done paying off the stadium.

 

[anon_1eeb2b426hv3y]

Next year is last year we play, so it won’t matter.

schedules change. won't likely matter anytime soon but it could matter down the road. And Pitt isn't going to turn it around anytime soon. There's too much ground to cover. But I hope it happens.

 

[Eurotrash1]

They died when their administrators pulled the plug on athletics. They are finding out you can't just decide to get back in the game once you've dropped out

 

[pennstgrad]

The number of PSU posts on the Pitt boards is staggering. Pitt fans are obsessed with PSU. They call PSU every name in the book and keep waiting for PSU's demise but it's unfortunately for them the opposite. Sucks to be a Pitt fan.

 

[m48tank]

Tear down the Cathedral of Learning. Occupies too much land that is now scarce, and more valuable.

The Cathedral of WHAT?? Maybe the Tower of Babel!!

 

[Uh Clem]

Pitt football died because in November 1981, the people in power at Pitt weighed the decision to be a basketball school in the Big East or a football school in Joe's Eastern All Sports Conference. They decided to stab the other Eastern football schools in the back at the last minute, and made the conscious decision to select basketball.

They made their bed, and now they are sleeping in it.

Ding, ding, ding. They were locked with Penn State, West Virginia, Boston College, and Syracuse for years. When they blocked Paterno's vision of a powerful east Coast all sports conference they seperated their future from that of Penn State's. Over a period of time they have stopped winning the recruiting battles vav us and media coverage has waned in the area because they are competing outside their traditional base.

The schadenfreude is delicious on our end, and their jealousy is apparent. They missed their chance at a better future the day they thought they stuck a knife into PSU.

 

[Media Fan]

As someone else mentioned, the decline of the WPIAL has worked against them in the longer-term.

In the shorter-term, they've made some poor tactical choices. Tearing down Pitt Stadium was tactical error #1. A number of their coaching hires (Paul Hackett, Major Harris version 2.0, Walt) were significant tactical errors as well.

Honestly, Pitt football today is just an ACC-version of the Cincinnati Bearcats. Except UC actually still plays in their classic on-campus stadium.

A great what if --- what if Pitt was invited to the B1G instead of Michigan State in the early 1950s. It did almost happen. OSU was the big opposition to Pitt.

I think you can throw PSU in there (to be honest).
On the other hand, PSU was denied membership in the Big East--can you imagine PSU being in the Big east and the trail that would have led to--- is it possible to think of PSU in the ACC under that circumstance--I think so.

 

[DiehardPanther]

The number of PSU posts on the Pitt boards is staggering. Pitt fans are obsessed with PSU. They call PSU every name in the book and keep waiting for PSU's demise but it's unfortunately for them the opposite. Sucks to be a Pitt fan.

There are 0 threads on the 1st Page of the Pitt message board directly related to PSU. The closest thread deals with LaMont Wade. There are 3 different threads directly related to Pitt on the first page of your board. #Facts

 

[LurkerLazarus]

Give it a few minutes, Diehard. Then it will be back to normal.

 

[ELDADDY]

There are 0 threads on the 1st Page of the Pitt message board directly related to PSU. The closest thread deals with LaMont Wade. There are 3 different threads directly related to Pitt on the first page of your board. #Facts

 

[marshall23]

There are 0 threads on the 1st Page of the Pitt message board directly related to PSU. The closest thread deals with LaMont Wade. There are 3 different threads directly related to Pitt on the first page of your board. #Facts

Cool....so we win again!

 

[LurkerLazarus]

You literally can't say anything over there that is in any way positive about PSU. And anybody who even attempts to use any logic is automatically branded a Nitter.

 

[Diego Badman]

My opinion is that Pitt suffers from being in a city where there are professional sports options. The Steelers are the football team in Pittsburgh. There are exceptions, but I don't think it is coincidence that your best known and followed football programs are not in major cities but rather in locations known for the University found there.

 

[lockhavenlion3]

Give it a few minutes, Diehard. Then it will be back to normal.

yeah, most of the patients don't get computer privileges till after 7. apparently this guy got away from his keepers.

 

[mikemauti42]

There are 0 threads on the 1st Page of the Pitt message board directly related to PSU. The closest thread deals with LaMont Wade. There are 3 different threads directly related to Pitt on the first page of your board. #Facts

This is probably the first time in Pantherlair history there isn’t a Penn State thread on the first page. Typically, there are more penn State discussions than Pitt on that board

 

[bkmtnittany1]

It will probably of course be large enough to accommodate the horde of rabid fans that flock to Pitt home games.

But will it be big enough to hang the 23 national championship banners they have won?

 

[tboyer]

First of all Pitt football isn't dead. It's a program usually in the top half of Div. 1 that will compete in the ACC and go to bowls a lot of years. It's not a top 10 or even a top 25 program but there are worse programs out there.

Second, Pitt football declined for many reasons already mentioned in the thread. Biggest one is there aren't that many players coming out of Western Pa. and there is a ton of competition for the best ones. Pitt is a lot like Maryland and Rutgers -- good players in their backyard but they'll only get them if the major programs pass on them.

Doesn't mean Pitt won't get some great players but they won't have the depth and well roundedness that major programs have. Maybe 20% of a Pitt squad has shot at the NFL compared with maybe 50% for PSU or 75% for Ohio State.