Robert Saleh? He's the Jets coach. I couldn't care less about the Jets and since I didn't see a topic about his religious views, I never commented. But since you brought it up, great for him becoming the first Muslim head coach in the NFL.
Carl Nassib
- Thread starter jrl5019
- Start date
Your post mate a while generalization. And not only that, it was derogatory to anybody who had a different opinion than yours. That’s called bigotry and prejudice. Do better
All good points. To knowing about his situation, I knew it about five years ago. I knew a person on the Browns coaching staff who told me about it. It was not derogatory, it wasn’t meant to be a flame, it was just a point of reference that Penn State puts out great players who are great people. That was his pointSo, a few thoughts, and then I will let you guys have your fun.
1. I was asking for a friend if this football player is considered "tougher" than any athlete in the other major sports because he is coming out as gay. Still would like an answer. Because I would also like to know what defines "tough".
2. So, one can assume his college teammates/coaches were aware of him being gay and, to the best of my knowledge. not one comment came from the team or coaching staff. And, he is not the first gay football player at Penn State, just as a matter of discussion.
3. If he was not a former PSU player, this thread would have a completely different tone to it, and probably would not be as long a thread. Especially if he was from one of the programs this board seems to really relish disliking - OSU, Michigan, Pitt, Notre Dame and a few others. It's been a while, but I don't recall the same level of support on this board to Michael Sam. And the fact that Nassib is on a roster and Sam never made it is immaterial.
4. To answer your question Bob - no, don't you(se). You are who I thought you were.
I think a lot of this has to do with adoption path and sort of how our society wants "acceptance" now. Its actually true of anyone marginalized now or perceived to be. Its not simply good enough to not be racist, you need to be anti-racist. Which means you need to renounce you privilege, you need to apologize for how you were born. You need to outwardly and fervently support any movement that is aimed to defend these marginalized people even if you don't agree with all the messaging or intentions. No different with the LBGTQ community. If you are a corporation, you need to signal you are affirming of these groups. Send money to BLM, put rainbows all over your marketing and packaging etc. Yes, cartoons for kids, not just Ru Paul's show(I have very young kids) have messaging about white privilege, critical race theory, critical trans theory, etc. Its ubiquitous. I think it would just be nice to be happy for Carl without espousing his deep courage and bravery. He will assuredly be embraced by a very large majority of this country which is more than most of us could hope for the way we are. Sure, are there pockets of homophobia in this country? Of course, particularly in minority communities. Will Carl be overwhelmingly embraced, asked to do myriad interviews, be trumpeted as a Hero in many corners of this country? Yes he will. For all those concerned and truly scared by what is on this board, let me ask you, how many countries would accept/treat a high visibility athlete to come out as Gay? America is a very accepting place and I would wager 95% of people on this board are perfectly comfortable with this guy being Gay. And you know what? That's good, that's progress, not manufactured progress that you will see on Oprah when Carl is interviewed(with music and all), but real progress over the last 30-40 years. It's okay if people don't want the messaging around HIS announcement to be discussed ad nauseum. As Morgan Freeman once said on 60 minutes when asked how do we get rid of racism...."you stop talking about it all the time." To Carl's point, I hope announcements like this don't have to be made in the future, that you can just be Gay.
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Better to signal virtue than to signal out-dated and boorish bigotries, right?
I mean, the audacity of "the gays" to want acceptance. These people and their demands!!!
But hey.....if folks want to be miserable old bastards that see celebration of other groups as an attack on them, so be it. Wallow in misery, I say. I won't stop you.
To hell with gays and people who look like them.
Can‘t we all just be the same as me and my sensibilities? Is that really too much to ask?
Good post. I get the need to announce so that leaders can feel comfortable coming out and be an example for others struggling with their identity. However, I am hopeful our long term existence doesn't mean we all need to wear a sign saying "strait, white, male" or "person who makes love to pumpkins, multi-racial, fluid gender". I just don't give a crap and hope nobody else does either. If you want to make love to pumpkins, that is your business and I don't care. The notion that somebody needs me to know this shows there is a problem.
There's nothing wrong with being anti-racist and pointing out stupid shit said by other people. It doesn't mean you have to apologize for anything. That sounds like something which would be pushed on certain cable news channels.
"But I have a question for you. Are Asian Americans victimized by being denied entry into colleges unless they have significantly higher scores and GPAs than other races?"
Are they being ostracized by some segments of society? Have their parents thrown them out of the house yet?
Has the church they've been going to since they were born turned their backs on them and refused to recognize their partner?
Have they been the butt of jokes and insults?
Have they been physically assaulted (and seeing the current news the answer to that is a big yes).
See where I'm going with this?
Sorry my previous post confused you. I thought it was pretty "straight" forward.🤷♂️
The fact that penn state has the social media team actively scrubbing the hate filled comments from their post about this should show you why this is a big deal to come out. Imagine being gay and a penn state football fan and seeing outward hate for a player just because he is gay.
One coming out shouldn’t have to be a big deal, but sadly it still has to be because of the ignorance and negative views, comments, etc. that these folks feel or face.
My half-sister (same dad, different moms) and I are very close. She is bi and both our dad and her mom were and have been complete assholes about it, throwing it back in her face when they can, etc.
She is a great mom of three (kids she had via normal pregnancy) and there has never been a reason for them to throw it back at her when they can, other than they want to make her feel bad about herself.
Our dad was a complete dick and given all the vices/issues he had, he had no room to judge or make anyone else feel bad about something that is part of who they are.
Her mom has been a miserable person for last 20 years.
If you love, like, care about a family member, friend, etc. just be happy that they can be in a relationship that is positive and makes them happy. If for any reason you can’t be, won’t be, and want to judge them on their relationship (unless it is a toxic one and you are trying to help them see that), that says more about you than their preference of relationship.
My half-sister (same dad, different moms) and I are very close. She is bi and both our dad and her mom were and have been complete assholes about it, throwing it back in her face when they can, etc.
She is a great mom of three (kids she had via normal pregnancy) and there has never been a reason for them to throw it back at her when they can, other than they want to make her feel bad about herself.
Our dad was a complete dick and given all the vices/issues he had, he had no room to judge or make anyone else feel bad about something that is part of who they are.
Her mom has been a miserable person for last 20 years.
If you love, like, care about a family member, friend, etc. just be happy that they can be in a relationship that is positive and makes them happy. If for any reason you can’t be, won’t be, and want to judge them on their relationship (unless it is a toxic one and you are trying to help them see that), that says more about you than their preference of relationship.
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Again, a bigoted comment regarding "certain cable news channels". If you don't want bigotry, don't be a bigot. The situation is nuanced and one size does not fit all. For example, I've been pro-gay rights for my entire life. But I am 100% against trans people competing in woman's sports. That is where I draw the line and it isn't going to change. I am sure people want to put m in the red pill box or blue pill box. The reality is that life isn't that simple. Gay rights, today, is a multifaceted and complex issue when you start to layer in transgendered people, age of consent, and all kinds of other stuff that is problematic. We, as a society, need to sort this all out. And because someone doesn't totally agree with the red pill or blue pill, doesn't make them wrong or a bad person.
Now cable news channels can victims of bigotry?? Oh the horror!! They all suck. How's that for bigotry??
But back to the topic. I agree with your final three sentences above.
Social media is not reality. Nobody will say anything to him about it... except for Richie Incognito maybe.
Good post.
If some want to see what love and acceptance looks like the 3 seasons of Pose is a good place to start.
I'll see your Sheetz and Wawa and raise you a Royal Farms. LOL.
Actually I think all 3 make good sandwiches but Royal Farms chicken rocks. Its better than Chik Filet and Popeyes.
It's pretty apparent you have no first-hand experience with a family member or friend who is gay and has struggled with the their own identity and the stress of others acceptance. So if that's true you get a little slack, but not much.
Until you have walked in those shoes you may want to tone it down a bit. You sound incredibly ignorant, and uninformed. Look at some of the den members stories here regarding their sons/daughters. They understand the the "current climate" as you say. It's real, and often times tragic. There are times this situation becomes a life or death one for some; that's how intense it is. What Carl did may save lives.
Ha. Yeah, I just don't care. Everyone's boat floats differently and we all have wings but some of us don't know why (INXS). I only care about the value someone brings to the table and that they live with the consequences of their actions. I can't stand people that are "victims". Carl is not a victim and is doing what he is doing to make a point for other people. He's obviously seen a change in tone and, it being gay rights month, is motivated to make his personal life public. It is, sadly, needed today. Hopefully, as many have posted, a few years from now nobody will care.
You said it to make a point and to call people names without calling people names. I get it. but it is bigotry in and of itself.
These evolving mores are a struggle for a lot of people. They are being challenged to change and adapt. Sympathy and education are the paths to understanding...not derision and bigotry. They simply grew up in different times in a different culture. That only makes the situation worse and simply makes a bully out of the person who is complaining about bullies.
The real meaning of diversity is accepting and having meaningful conversations. All voices get heard even if you disagree with them.
This thread is a good example of why its a big deal when someone in Carl's position announces he is gay. People really don't have a clue just how much hatred and bigotry gay people still get today, which is why what Carl is doing is so important.
Does everyone realize some of the things that are said in a football locker room? Its not exactly the easiest place in the world to be a gay person.
Does everyone realize some of the things that are said in a football locker room? Its not exactly the easiest place in the world to be a gay person.
(none of this is directed at you personally obli because I know we are on the same page here, but just generally ranting)
I think the very point that it is news is why it is needed for now. But I think the end goal is to make sexual preference as uninteresting and non-newsworthy as hair color. It is clearly not the case right now, but hopefully it will be that soon.
Living in NYC it is interesting to me to see the interactions between the younger and older generations from the community. The younger members grew up in a world where they are accepted and therefore sort of want to be conventional in a way the older generation would have ever dreamt of being unless they were hiding who they were. THAT is progress.
I think the people who are screaming "I don't care" fail to see their own prejudices or to not want to come out and say it. Carl wants to live in a world where he doesn't see others around him struggling with who they are in a profession where historically, it wasn't really accepted. Why should someone have to hide who they are, that isn't right.
Being gay isn't what makes Carl brave, it is coming out in what is traditionally hostile place that makes him brave. I am sure he would love to just live his life, go out to dinner with his boyfriend or husband and not have to hide that. Now he doesn't and that is the goal here. Not to pat someone on the back for being who they are but to allow people to be who they are.
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Well stated and I totally agree. My point is that it is nuanced and generational. It doesn't call for derision, it calls for understanding and education. Derision simply makes people become more entrenched in their position and doesn't do anyone any good.
I came out as Magua at work the other day but there are a Lotta bigoted White Knights where I work. I don't unnerstand 95% of the time they're joking or serious- which is ok- I could care less but not a lot less.
There's a difference between being "accepting of gay people" and joining the cultural Powers That Be in the affirmation and celebration of their gayness, which such public advertisements invite and even pressure people to do. I'm declining the invitation. It's not more complicated than that.
The key phrase in your response is "used to be."
So on one far end of the spectrum is persecution and abuse, which "used to be."
On the opposite far end is celebration and glorification, which is.
I'm advocating a position in the middle, which I think is the most sane place to be on this and many other issues.
Nobody is being "pressured" to do anything. If you are you are and if you are not you are not.
I think the crux of your confusion is that you think it is a choice.
Thanks for a thoughtful response.
If you follow the news and trends of the day, it is not an exaggeration to use the word "glorification." Hand in hand with this is ridicule and condemnation of those who decline to participate in the now standard chorus of celebration. In many companies people are under pressure to at least pretend...under threat of losing their jobs. That's a fact.
I take your point re "keep your sex life to yourself," so let me rephrase it this way: keep your sexual orientation to yourself. I'm straight -- it's a "fundamental aspect of my identity" -- but I don't feel the need for a flag or a parade or a public advertisement. Why is there a need for this except as a form of cultural pressure to conform to the new order.
I think you have a point about there being an element of courage in coming out as an active NFL player. On the other hand, the leagues Powers That Be are already making their position clear and sending a message to the players: dissent will not be tolerated.
Uh-oh, outed by the Bear.
Seriously, your first paragraph offers a balanced view of the issue, Laf, though we obviously disagree on the core point.
OK, there's something to what you're saying as regards the environment of professional football, though I expect the league will enforce a policy of zero tolerance, whether in the locker room or the stadium, for anything that could be construed as harassment directed at Carl.
I never remotely said Carl was "psychologically unstable." In response to another post, I suggested that if there is a statistical link between gayness and suicidal behavior in some people (and I question whether that's so), it may have more to do with psychological instability in those cases than with societal rejection of their sexual orientation.
Questions of morality aside, because that's a different conversation which you and I have already had on the other board, I'm not advocating for Carl or anyone else to "go back in the closet." I'm saying let Carl live his life...without publicly inviting anyone else's approval or disapproval of it. Somewhere between hiding in the closet and public celebration there is a reasonable and sane middle ground.
