CFB revamp; In what other sport
- Thread starter NC2017
- Start date
OK. Eight teams with the first round being held two weeks after CCG weekend in the home stadium of the higher ranked team. Imagine an SEC team playing in the north in December. They'd probably file a law suit.
Because there aren't 100 teams winning at an almost 85% clip?
Well, then, using your logic, there should be, as things currently stand, 12 teams in this year's playoff, with the possible addition of six more.
With a 12 team playoff, as many as six teams would have to be eliminated this year. Answer your own question.
The NFL can do it with 12, seems like a reasonable model for CFB. Power 5 CCG winners are in, then 7 at large. Then there will always be disagreement about how the 7 are selected. Oh well...
OK so I have a few thoughts on this, which some may or may not agree with in part and/or in full....but, it's Thanksgiving morning, it's about 930, dinner is at my mothers house around 330 and I have the cleaning lady here (her choice to work this day) to clean up my house for the relatives who are staying with me tonight.....
So.
1. This is not a football problem. It's a process problem. Rule of thumb of any process - garbage in equals garbage out. Too many people (sports people and general football fans) are trying to solve this issue at the end of the process instead of the beginning....but the real problem actually starts before the "beginning", but that may be a different discussion.
2. The poll system is antiquated and does not really serve the purpose it once did. IMHO, it actually works against the teams that win on the field (Penn State 2016 for example). The polling system IMHO should simply be eliminated.
3. Pro sports have a structured playoff system (so do the lower divisions of football). You win on the field, you get into the playoffs - simple as that.
4. Sticking with pro football (in an effort to compare apples to apples), 12 teams out of 32 make the playoffs. A structured system ensures 8 of those teams, and structured process of elimination ensures the other 4 teams. That is 38%. So, a little over 1/3 of the teams make it into the playoffs, based solely on their play on the field.
5. D-1A football has 130 teams, of which roughly 60 are automatically eliminated based on conference affiliation, and 5 out of 6 are specifically not included in playoff opportunity. So, in essence, 65 teams are competing for 4 playoff spots. That works out to a little over 6% of the teams that are eligible can make the playoff given the current format. A logical person would think that on the field success would ensure a team to be in the top 6%, but having a committee decide who that is even more illogical than the poll system.
6. There are a myriad of reasons why the NFL has greater opportunity for it's teams to make the playoff system, and the NFL has evolved it's system over the years. The most obvious reason is money - more playoffs mean more TV revenue and more money for the league.
7. Money plays an even greater role in the current system, which includes the bowl system and the cities that host these bowls. They are not about to give up the opportunity for those fan bases that want to travel to see the games. And hence, that is a big part of the reason the committee exists. To protect the Bowl System and the revenue that is generated. (I won't get into a discussion about what the players are not getting).
8. So, what are ro's surefire ideas to fix this process that no one will agree with?
a. Eliminate the polling system and the Committee. Pre season polls, mid year polls - gone. Say goodbye to the committee like it's name was Felicia.
b. Four playoff spots with 5 "major conferences" does not add up. The logical move would be 8 playoff spots. That would allow 12% of the teams to get into the playoff. This would be important to keep the Big 12 from imploding. So, that leaves three playoff spots. How to address those?
b (i). Take the group of five conferences and independents and seed them based on a structured process of elimination - similar to "seeding" of wild card teams in the NFL. The top three make the playoff, thereby filling out the last three playoff spots.
-or-
b (ii) Take the Power 5 champions, and the next three best teams using the structured process of elimination, to fill out the last three spots. What this does is allows the conference champion and the next best teams in these conferences, to get into the playoff. So, a 10-2 Penn State team ranked out side the top 4 but won it's conference championship, and an Ohio State team that is ranked in the top 4 but did not win the conference championship, are both in. This eliminates the independents and group of five. Or forces the independents to join a conference. (Looking at you Notre Dame and BYU).
b (iii) - In the case of above, I could see the group of five having their own playoff and championship game.
c. IF THE POLLING SYSTEM HAS TO REMAIN IN PLACE.(capitalized for emphasis), make the polling system similar to what we had in the BCS - formulatic. Take the top 8 teams regardless of conference affiliation, and put them in the playoff spot. Potentially, this would eliminate a team that is 8-4 and wins their conference title, but is ranked 20th, from entering the playoff.
d. In both scenarios, the playoff games would be played on campus - not bowl games. The process of which team gets to host a game under "b" can be determined either through agreement/best record, etc. The process of which team gets to game under "c" is easier, because the higher rated team would host. The system would start with eight teams, eliminate four the first week and then eliminate two more the second week. That would leave two to play in the championship game. I would also propose that the eight teams that are in the playoff receive monetary compensation for making the playoffs. The home team also gets the benefit of added revenue. A title sponsor (Dr. Pepper?) would help make this more financially attractive.
e. The bowls? Oh yeah, have not forgotten them. So, eight teams are in the playoff, and they are guaranteed to be in one of the four major bowls (Rose, Sugar, Fiesta, Orange). Each bowl gets to host the championship game on a rotating basis. The six teams that don't make the final game, are selected for one of the other bowls and play each other, but no repeat games. All bowls continue to pay out. Each team/conference would have it's own payout structure, but that's not really part of this discussion. There are also a lot of other bowls, Outback, Holiday, etc. but they don't really fall into the championship picture - and they are great for the teams that are not part of the playoff system.
e(i) The above eliminates the Peach and Cotton Bowls based on my process. However, I only selected the bowls I did because I first had this idea when the BCS was still around, and they used the four major bowls. The process could be used to select four of the six NY6 bowls on a rotating basis, to host the games and championship game.
f. I don't know if more than an 8 team playoff is feasible in college football - because there simply isn't enough parity and equivalency of the teams to warrant giving the 16th best team an opportunity to win the championship. In the NFL, on paper anyway, there is an opportunity for parity between teams, and it starts with the obtaining of talent - the draft allows the best players to be selected by the worst teams. In college football you can't force the best 100 high school football players to play for the 10 worst teams. That's not how recruiting works. (That is what I mean by the real problem starts before the beginning of the process).
g. The process I presented does create other issues, such as number of games played by a player, exam time, coaches recruiting time, etc. I look at D-1AA and realize they play first round, second round, quarterfinals, finals. So potentially adding four more games for a player on top of the existing regular season. However, looking at a couple of D-1AA schedules, (Illinois State and Villanova), these teams also play a 12 game regular season. And, I don't really hear much complaint about the tolls it takes on the bodies of their players, or impact on exam time.
OK, so that is what I conjured up. Looking forward to hearing from everyone poking holes in this idea. Art, Barry - especially you guys.
Fenchak - I am especially looking forward to your unique manner of addressing ideas you don't like and/or agree with.
Enjoy your Thanksgiving everyone.
Eduit-one other point as I re-read this: Getting rid of the committee does not mean there isn’t a group that oversees this process. There will have to be some group that oversees the process. At the risk of shaking hands with the devil it might be time for NCAA to step in to administrate the process.
So.
1. This is not a football problem. It's a process problem. Rule of thumb of any process - garbage in equals garbage out. Too many people (sports people and general football fans) are trying to solve this issue at the end of the process instead of the beginning....but the real problem actually starts before the "beginning", but that may be a different discussion.
2. The poll system is antiquated and does not really serve the purpose it once did. IMHO, it actually works against the teams that win on the field (Penn State 2016 for example). The polling system IMHO should simply be eliminated.
3. Pro sports have a structured playoff system (so do the lower divisions of football). You win on the field, you get into the playoffs - simple as that.
4. Sticking with pro football (in an effort to compare apples to apples), 12 teams out of 32 make the playoffs. A structured system ensures 8 of those teams, and structured process of elimination ensures the other 4 teams. That is 38%. So, a little over 1/3 of the teams make it into the playoffs, based solely on their play on the field.
5. D-1A football has 130 teams, of which roughly 60 are automatically eliminated based on conference affiliation, and 5 out of 6 are specifically not included in playoff opportunity. So, in essence, 65 teams are competing for 4 playoff spots. That works out to a little over 6% of the teams that are eligible can make the playoff given the current format. A logical person would think that on the field success would ensure a team to be in the top 6%, but having a committee decide who that is even more illogical than the poll system.
6. There are a myriad of reasons why the NFL has greater opportunity for it's teams to make the playoff system, and the NFL has evolved it's system over the years. The most obvious reason is money - more playoffs mean more TV revenue and more money for the league.
7. Money plays an even greater role in the current system, which includes the bowl system and the cities that host these bowls. They are not about to give up the opportunity for those fan bases that want to travel to see the games. And hence, that is a big part of the reason the committee exists. To protect the Bowl System and the revenue that is generated. (I won't get into a discussion about what the players are not getting).
8. So, what are ro's surefire ideas to fix this process that no one will agree with?
a. Eliminate the polling system and the Committee. Pre season polls, mid year polls - gone. Say goodbye to the committee like it's name was Felicia.
b. Four playoff spots with 5 "major conferences" does not add up. The logical move would be 8 playoff spots. That would allow 12% of the teams to get into the playoff. This would be important to keep the Big 12 from imploding. So, that leaves three playoff spots. How to address those?
b (i). Take the group of five conferences and independents and seed them based on a structured process of elimination - similar to "seeding" of wild card teams in the NFL. The top three make the playoff, thereby filling out the last three playoff spots.
-or-
b (ii) Take the Power 5 champions, and the next three best teams using the structured process of elimination, to fill out the last three spots. What this does is allows the conference champion and the next best teams in these conferences, to get into the playoff. So, a 10-2 Penn State team ranked out side the top 4 but won it's conference championship, and an Ohio State team that is ranked in the top 4 but did not win the conference championship, are both in. This eliminates the independents and group of five. Or forces the independents to join a conference. (Looking at you Notre Dame and BYU).
b (iii) - In the case of above, I could see the group of five having their own playoff and championship game.
c. IF THE POLLING SYSTEM HAS TO REMAIN IN PLACE.(capitalized for emphasis), make the polling system similar to what we had in the BCS - formulatic. Take the top 8 teams regardless of conference affiliation, and put them in the playoff spot. Potentially, this would eliminate a team that is 8-4 and wins their conference title, but is ranked 20th, from entering the playoff.
d. In both scenarios, the playoff games would be played on campus - not bowl games. The process of which team gets to host a game under "b" can be determined either through agreement/best record, etc. The process of which team gets to game under "c" is easier, because the higher rated team would host. The system would start with eight teams, eliminate four the first week and then eliminate two more the second week. That would leave two to play in the championship game. I would also propose that the eight teams that are in the playoff receive monetary compensation for making the playoffs. The home team also gets the benefit of added revenue. A title sponsor (Dr. Pepper?) would help make this more financially attractive.
e. The bowls? Oh yeah, have not forgotten them. So, eight teams are in the playoff, and they are guaranteed to be in one of the four major bowls (Rose, Sugar, Fiesta, Orange). Each bowl gets to host the championship game on a rotating basis. The six teams that don't make the final game, are selected for one of the other bowls and play each other, but no repeat games. All bowls continue to pay out. Each team/conference would have it's own payout structure, but that's not really part of this discussion. There are also a lot of other bowls, Outback, Holiday, etc. but they don't really fall into the championship picture - and they are great for the teams that are not part of the playoff system.
e(i) The above eliminates the Peach and Cotton Bowls based on my process. However, I only selected the bowls I did because I first had this idea when the BCS was still around, and they used the four major bowls. The process could be used to select four of the six NY6 bowls on a rotating basis, to host the games and championship game.
f. I don't know if more than an 8 team playoff is feasible in college football - because there simply isn't enough parity and equivalency of the teams to warrant giving the 16th best team an opportunity to win the championship. In the NFL, on paper anyway, there is an opportunity for parity between teams, and it starts with the obtaining of talent - the draft allows the best players to be selected by the worst teams. In college football you can't force the best 100 high school football players to play for the 10 worst teams. That's not how recruiting works. (That is what I mean by the real problem starts before the beginning of the process).
g. The process I presented does create other issues, such as number of games played by a player, exam time, coaches recruiting time, etc. I look at D-1AA and realize they play first round, second round, quarterfinals, finals. So potentially adding four more games for a player on top of the existing regular season. However, looking at a couple of D-1AA schedules, (Illinois State and Villanova), these teams also play a 12 game regular season. And, I don't really hear much complaint about the tolls it takes on the bodies of their players, or impact on exam time.
OK, so that is what I conjured up. Looking forward to hearing from everyone poking holes in this idea. Art, Barry - especially you guys.
Fenchak - I am especially looking forward to your unique manner of addressing ideas you don't like and/or agree with.
Enjoy your Thanksgiving everyone.
Eduit-one other point as I re-read this: Getting rid of the committee does not mean there isn’t a group that oversees this process. There will have to be some group that oversees the process. At the risk of shaking hands with the devil it might be time for NCAA to step in to administrate the process.
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I’ll have to re read all of this but I must say that is quite impressive missive for a Thanksgiving morning!!!
Except the non-conference winners in the NFL that qualify for the playoffs do so under predetermined standards. In college football, it would be the "eye-test."
1 loss should eliminate a team from playing for the national championship unless they played a very difficult schedule like our 82 team. Prove it in the regular season.
Bowl games are silly.
Force teams to form 10-team conferences - no more, no less, unless the number of FBS teams exceeds a perfectly divisible number and you hav to go over that amount in a conference or two. You have to play everyone in your conference during the regular season. Best conference record advances to a playoff.
With 130 current FBS teams, that's 13 conferences and 13 teams automatically advancing to a playoff.
Maybe you allow 3 "wildcard" teams, to be determined in a manner close to the current playoff systems rankings.
That gives you 16 teams in the playoff.
If folks want to continue the glorified exhibitions of other bowl games, they're free to do that ... but bowl games, outside of the current playoff games, are already meaningless glorified exhibition games ... and the fun of the postseason is in the playoffs. But with the current day setup, they actually take the fun out of the playoffs, because they don't allow enough teams in ... there's no buzz for that team that stumbled early, but may be coming on now. Or that non-P5 conference team that could make a run. Or whatever.
Heck, I'd expand it to 32, or something more than 16 ... except for the fact that this adds too many games to a team's schedule. 4 is the arbitrary limit I've set.
If the system is opened up to a larger playoff, the CCGs probably need to be eliminated as it adds an unnecessary game. Unless CCs get a “bye”.
Who determines. “Very difficult” schedule? Conference sharps only. Simple solution.
8 teams Conference Champs and s decision on G5 teams or P5 teams to fill out the playoff teams
Thanks-something I have contemplated for a while.
She lives in America so.....as far as I know...yes.
First, Happy Thanksgiving to all!
I've posted crazy ideas about the playoffs before, so, as I await our visit to the in-laws, I'll add another one to the list.
1. Cancel CCG for the Big 6: ACC, BIG TEN, AAC, PAC-12, SEC, BIG 12. Yes, I added the AAC since UCF has shown viability as a contender.
2. Eliminate independent status for the playoffs. If a program wants to be eligible for the playoff, it MUST be in a conference ... yes, even the almighty Fighting Irish.
3. The other 4 conference -- MAC, CUSA, MT. WEST, SUN BELT -- are still a part of the FBS (a new designation will need to be created, perhaps FP[layoff]S) and deserve a seat at the table.
4. The Big 6 get 2 teams each into the playoffs, either as divisional champions or as otherwise determined by the individual conferences. Of course, this will assure both Ohio State and Michigan a playoff slot every year; thus, the Big Ten will like this plan.
5. The Smaller 4 will enter its champion only into the playoffs, for they have not historically shown 2 teams to be at championship level.
Playoffs will begin the 2nd Saturday in December as follows (for example) ... team listed 1st is at home:
1.ACC 1 vs CUSA CHAMP
2. ACC 2 vs AAC 2
3.BIG TEN 1 vs MAC CHAMP
4. BIG TEN 2 vs BIG 12 2
5. SEC 1 vs SUNBELT CHAMP
6. AAC 1 vs SEC 2
7. PAC-12 1 vs MT. WEST CHAMP
8. BIG 12 1 vs PAC-12 2
Round 2 takes place the 3rd Saturday in December as follows (example):
9. Game 1 winner vs Game 2 winner @ Citrus Bowl
10. Game 3 winner vs Game 4 winner @ Cotton Bowl
11. Game 5 winner vs Game 6 winner @ Outback Bowl
12. Game 7 winner vs Game 8 winner @ major Bowl site (Rose, Orange, Fiesta, Sugar,)
Round 3 takes place on January 1st
13. Game 9 winner vs Game 10 winner @ major Bowl site (Rose, Orange, Fiesta, Sugar)
14. Game 11 winner vs Game 12 winner @ major Bowl site (Rose, Orange, Fiesta, Sugar)
Championship Game takes place 1 week later
15. Game 13 winner vs Game 14 winner @ major Bowl site (Rose, Orange, Fiesta, Sugar)
Two teams of 130 will play 16 games ... 4 will play 15 ... 8 will play 14, which is basically what happens now with CCG and a Bowl.
The CCG would, in effect, take place in Round 2 if both conference teams win their opening game.
The Bowl sites would be rotated as they are now.
Crazy, perhaps ... but it beats writing about James' leaving to FSU or about Shorter's passage through The Portal.
I've posted crazy ideas about the playoffs before, so, as I await our visit to the in-laws, I'll add another one to the list.
1. Cancel CCG for the Big 6: ACC, BIG TEN, AAC, PAC-12, SEC, BIG 12. Yes, I added the AAC since UCF has shown viability as a contender.
2. Eliminate independent status for the playoffs. If a program wants to be eligible for the playoff, it MUST be in a conference ... yes, even the almighty Fighting Irish.
3. The other 4 conference -- MAC, CUSA, MT. WEST, SUN BELT -- are still a part of the FBS (a new designation will need to be created, perhaps FP[layoff]S) and deserve a seat at the table.
4. The Big 6 get 2 teams each into the playoffs, either as divisional champions or as otherwise determined by the individual conferences. Of course, this will assure both Ohio State and Michigan a playoff slot every year; thus, the Big Ten will like this plan.
5. The Smaller 4 will enter its champion only into the playoffs, for they have not historically shown 2 teams to be at championship level.
Playoffs will begin the 2nd Saturday in December as follows (for example) ... team listed 1st is at home:
1.ACC 1 vs CUSA CHAMP
2. ACC 2 vs AAC 2
3.BIG TEN 1 vs MAC CHAMP
4. BIG TEN 2 vs BIG 12 2
5. SEC 1 vs SUNBELT CHAMP
6. AAC 1 vs SEC 2
7. PAC-12 1 vs MT. WEST CHAMP
8. BIG 12 1 vs PAC-12 2
Round 2 takes place the 3rd Saturday in December as follows (example):
9. Game 1 winner vs Game 2 winner @ Citrus Bowl
10. Game 3 winner vs Game 4 winner @ Cotton Bowl
11. Game 5 winner vs Game 6 winner @ Outback Bowl
12. Game 7 winner vs Game 8 winner @ major Bowl site (Rose, Orange, Fiesta, Sugar,)
Round 3 takes place on January 1st
13. Game 9 winner vs Game 10 winner @ major Bowl site (Rose, Orange, Fiesta, Sugar)
14. Game 11 winner vs Game 12 winner @ major Bowl site (Rose, Orange, Fiesta, Sugar)
Championship Game takes place 1 week later
15. Game 13 winner vs Game 14 winner @ major Bowl site (Rose, Orange, Fiesta, Sugar)
Two teams of 130 will play 16 games ... 4 will play 15 ... 8 will play 14, which is basically what happens now with CCG and a Bowl.
The CCG would, in effect, take place in Round 2 if both conference teams win their opening game.
The Bowl sites would be rotated as they are now.
Crazy, perhaps ... but it beats writing about James' leaving to FSU or about Shorter's passage through The Portal.
The season should start with the second week (allow 1 tune up game) and and there should be cross conference seeded matchups. So big10 vs sec, 1vs 1, 2vs 2, etc. Same for 2 of the others, say pac10 vs big 12. ACC is left out, but they do the same vs a seeding of group of 5 plus independents.
Do the same thing, rotating conferences in week 5.
This would provide context and statistics to really show which conferences are strongest, hence strength of schedule.
At the end of the season, there's real data to judge teams.
Do the same thing, rotating conferences in week 5.
This would provide context and statistics to really show which conferences are strongest, hence strength of schedule.
At the end of the season, there's real data to judge teams.
As you go out to a 16 team playoff, just taking the two “best” teams per conference will create the same arguments as our current system. You think the second best team in the ACC deserves a playoff bid over the third best B1G or SEC team? Probably not. The B1G currently has 5 teams in the top 16. Even with the remaining games to be played, I’m not seeing a ton of movement there.
It's different in all the other sports which I personally find boring. Please switch to those if you don't like it.
Totally agree. Do away with the conference championships and have a 12 or 16 team playoff. Eliminate all the bowls games. Total waste of time and money.
For all the 8-4, 7-5 and 6-6 teams that go to bowl games and play in front of 10-15k fans.
I see two issues that will be difficult to solve to everyone’s satisfaction.
The NFL model has a schedule formula that, while not making everything equal, determines who teams play based on the prior season’s performance. It is basically fair over time to all teams and results clearly slot teams into the playoff bracket.
Who and how will they make these determinations in whatever size bracket is used by the NCAA.
Attendance is going to be an issue. If PSU potentially has to play three or four road games in as many weeks, how many fans can afford the time or cost to make more than one trip? The logistics of ticket distribution, scheduling of time off work, travel and lodging would be a challenge. If neutral sites are used, many games are going to look like Pitt home games.
The NFL model has a schedule formula that, while not making everything equal, determines who teams play based on the prior season’s performance. It is basically fair over time to all teams and results clearly slot teams into the playoff bracket.
Who and how will they make these determinations in whatever size bracket is used by the NCAA.
Attendance is going to be an issue. If PSU potentially has to play three or four road games in as many weeks, how many fans can afford the time or cost to make more than one trip? The logistics of ticket distribution, scheduling of time off work, travel and lodging would be a challenge. If neutral sites are used, many games are going to look like Pitt home games.
For Penn State Teams:
Men’s Gymnastics
Cross Country
Track and Field
All have 12 or less competitions/year and have NCAA team championships
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