CNN: U.S. college enrollment is dropping.

[BobPSU92]

See the link below. Not terribly surprising, but the article puts some numbers behind it. From the article:

"For years, America's college campuses swelled with more and more students. But enrollment peaked in 2010 at just over 21 million students. Attendance has dropped every year since.

By the fall of 2014 -- the most recent year government data is available -- there were 812,069 fewer students walking around college campuses."

And,

"Dig a little deeper and the data gets even more troubling.

The two types of colleges with the biggest declines in enrollment are: community colleges and for-profit universities. Those schools draw heavily from low-income and minority households.

Community colleges are often lifelines for poor families. They are close to home, they don't require SAT scores, and they have cheap price tags.

President Obama proposed making community colleges free for two years because they are the gateway to higher education -- and better jobs -- for so many Americans. Since 2010, enrollment at community college has fallen by over 820,000 students."

http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/20/news/economy/college-enrollment-down/index.html

 

[Nitwit]

It will be interesting to see how online education from legitimate universities changes the whole structure of higher education over time. Penn State's world campus is now their second largest "campus' behind University Park. It's accessible by students all over the world. Most universities are doing similar types of offerings. Certainly the costs to the university are much lower than bricks and mortar classrooms and dorms. And the typical student tends to be a bit older than their 'on campus" counterparts. There are advantages and disadvantages to both types of education, but for many, distance learning is a good option.

 

[LionFan87b]

See the link below. Not terribly surprising, but the article puts some numbers behind it. From the article:

"For years, America's college campuses swelled with more and more students. But enrollment peaked in 2010 at just over 21 million students. Attendance has dropped every year since.

By the fall of 2014 -- the most recent year government data is available -- there were 812,069 fewer students walking around college campuses."

And,

"Dig a little deeper and the data gets even more troubling.

The two types of colleges with the biggest declines in enrollment are: community colleges and for-profit universities. Those schools draw heavily from low-income and minority households.

Community colleges are often lifelines for poor families. They are close to home, they don't require SAT scores, and they have cheap price tags.

President Obama proposed making community colleges free for two years because they are the gateway to higher education -- and better jobs -- for so many Americans. Since 2010, enrollment at community college has fallen by over 820,000 students."

http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/20/news/economy/college-enrollment-down/index.html

I didn't read the article, but if trade schools are not counted in these statistics, then maybe this isn't bad news. Maybe more people should go trade and vocational schools after high school. I've known many people with college degrees who made me wonder what was the point of them spending four years in college.

 

[Blueblood4eva]

Until you make it free, they won't come.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

Until you make it free, they won't come.

Free is not free. All the rest of us who have already paid will be paying for this "free college". Many of you are still paying on your college loans would then be paying for this "free college" on top of you college loans. That is unless they forgive all college loans and then those of us who are free and clear and have already paid for our college will then have an even larger bill to pay for all "free college" plus the approaching $2 trillion in current student loan debt. Who among you who have already paid their share and worked hard for it think that you ought to pay for everyone who hasn't?

 

[NittPicker]

I didn't read the article, but if trade schools are not counted in these statistics, then maybe this isn't bad news. Maybe more people should go trade and vocational schools after high school. I've known many people with college degrees who made me wonder what was the point of them spending four years in college.

Good post. Many people go to college because they haven't figured out what they want to do with their lives. Some drop out while others like those you mention graduate and still don't have a plan for themselves. For them college was just a place to watch the world go by for four (or more) years. There are some excellent trade schools out there which offer training in fields which pay very well. How many people know that an elevator repairman can make over $100,000 annually?

I read an article a long time ago about education in Japan. At some point in the process the students are given an exam. Based on the results they are steered toward higher education or trades. They can't generally go to college just to kill a few years.

 

[AWS1022]

Good post. Many people go to college because they haven't figured out what they want to do with their lives. Some drop out while others like those you mention graduate and still don't have a plan for themselves. For them college was just a place to watch the world go by for four (or more) years. There are some excellent trade schools out there which offer training in fields which pay very well. How many people know that an elevator repairman can make over $100,000 annually?

I read an article a long time ago about education in Japan. At some point in the process the students are given an exam. Based on the results they are steered toward higher education or trades. They can't generally go to college just to kill a few years.

Good point. And if everyone got a college education, then we'd be further in debt from paying for it and McDonalds and Wendy's would be filled with college graduates. If everyone got a degree, then it wouldn't be worth much. And let's face it, college isn't for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that.

 

[RLCookie]

Four year college enrollment dropping is not a bad thing. It needs to. This video explains it much better than I can.

 

[miketd1]

Higher education is a bubble.

The problem started when the Fed started guaranteeing these student loans. "Everyone deserves an opportunity to go to college" was the rhetoric.

Except that everyone doesn't deserve that opportunity.

And now we have a flood of "graduates" -- some with absolutely useless degrees (at least in an purely economic sense) -- hitting the market.

In a lot of ways, going to college became a vanity purchase like cars & homes -- a status symbol. And emotional purchases rarely end well -- especially big ticket items.

Anyway, someone came up with a brilliant phrase when it comes to buying stuff that holds true today same as it did centuries ago when it was originally coined:
Caveat Emptor
(Let the buyer beware)

 

[jim cummings]

Whether college is for everyone or not, or whether their degree is useless, I'll still take the college grad over the non-grad.

I can care less what they studied. A degree shows me that someone set some goals and put the time in to achieve those goals.

 

[Art]

Part of the enrollment decline is attributable to economics, but a lot of it is demographics. Number of HS graduates peaked in 2011, primarily as the last of the children of the Baby Boomers cycled out. Numbers dropped through 2014 and are expected to level out until 2020. Next growth spurt to be seen will come as children of immigrants, primarily Latinos, cycle through the system. How that will effect college enrollments is anyone's guess.

 

[royboy]

Higher education is a bubble.

The problem started when the Fed started guaranteeing these student loans. "Everyone deserves an opportunity to go to college" was the rhetoric.

A stat to illustrate how serious the problem is -- the total of student loan liabilities now exceeds the total amount of credit card debt. Total student loan liability is $1.1 Trillion+

 

[LMTLION]

Good post. Many people go to college because they haven't figured out what they want to do with their lives. Some drop out while others like those you mention graduate and still don't have a plan for themselves. For them college was just a place to watch the world go by for four (or more) years. There are some excellent trade schools out there which offer training in fields which pay very well. How many people know that an elevator repairman can make over $100,000 annually?

I read an article a long time ago about education in Japan. At some point in the process the students are given an exam. Based on the results they are steered toward higher education or trades. They can't generally go to college just to kill a few years.

I believe it about elevator repairmen. It is a highly specialized skill and in high demand, and the elevator maintenance companies charge us over $200/hr for repair work.

A lot of the trades are well-paid and in high demand. Another area that will see higher demand that does not need a 4 year degree (but does require years of sacrifice starting at the bottom and working your way up) is commercial airline pilot. My brother is a captain for a large airline and tells me a lot of the old guys are starting to retire, so the demand is there. You start at the bottom as a pilot but after several years your are at over 100k for commercial, and captains make over 150k.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

How well you do in life is largely dependent on what choices you make and how hard you work (or don't work). College improves your chances at success in many, but not all, ways. You can just as easily make a rich/rewarding life for yourself in various trades, or by starting at McDonalds and busting your ass to work your way up.

 

[Art]

Higher education is a bubble.

The problem started when the Fed started guaranteeing these student loans. "Everyone deserves an opportunity to go to college" was the rhetoric.

Except that everyone doesn't deserve that opportunity.

And now we have a flood of "graduates" -- some with absolutely useless degrees (at least in an purely economic sense) -- hitting the market.

In a lot of ways, going to college became a vanity purchase like cars & homes -- a status symbol. And emotional purchases rarely end well -- especially big ticket items.

Anyway, someone came up with a brilliant phrase when it comes to buying stuff that holds true today same as it did centuries ago when it was originally coined:
Caveat Emptor
(Let the buyer beware)

Food for thought. Who deserves to go to college? Child of wealthy parents who can easily afford the full freight, but who is either lazy or academically challenged? How about the student who by any and all measures is academically well-prepared for college, but decides to pursue what you consider to be a "useless degree?"

BTW, "the Fed" is usually used to refer to the Federal Reserve Bank, which does not guarantee student loans. The Federal Government started, to a limited degree, guaranteeing student loans in the '50s. Expansion of loan guarantee programs took place in the mid '60s, So when exactly did the "problem" start.

In the realm of brilliant phrases, cartoonist Walt Kelly came up with another one to ponder: "we have met the enemy and he is us."

 

[LionFan87b]

Whether college is for everyone or not, or whether their degree is useless, I'll still take the college grad over the non-grad.

I can care less what they studied. A degree shows me that someone set some goals and put the time in to achieve those goals.

If that's all you know about the two people, then yes. But let's say both people were marginally qualified for college to begin with? Person A gets a degree from Joe's University and Grill, where admissions are not selective and the curriculum is in line with what many of us experienced in high school. Person B gets a degree (or certificate or whatever) from a trade school and learned the trade that you are hiring for. Who is the more desirable employment candidate?

Give credit to Person A for sticking it out and getting a degree. But maybe that degree was remedial, in the sense that it gave Person A the education he/she should have received in high school.

 

[miketd1]

Art: There are schools offering degrees that have little hope in recouping the initial financial investment. A good example are 3rd and 4th tier law schools. They are fine if you aren't financing or if uncle bob can hook it up with a job. But these schools are selling kids on the dream knowing full well that a good many won't even be practicing law 5 years removed from graduation.

The problem didn't start in an "on/off" switch type of way. What happened is the government program that was supposed to enable kids to pay for college who wouldn't otherwise be able to pay for it. Gradually -- much like the housing bubble -- privateers abused the program to line their pockets.

The gist problem is twofold as I see it: 1.) some kids -- for whatever reason -- just aren't college material. It is what it is. 2.) not all degrees make practical economic sense. Like in my prior example, tier 3&4 law programs have their place, but for the most part they are lousy "investments".

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

I believe it about elevator repairmen. It is a highly specialized skill and in high demand, and the elevator maintenance companies charge us over $200/hr for repair work.

A lot of the trades are well-paid and in high demand. Another area that will see higher demand that does not need a 4 year degree (but does require years of sacrifice starting at the bottom and working your way up) is commercial airline pilot. My brother is a captain for a large airline and tells me a lot of the old guys are starting to retire, so the demand is there. You start at the bottom as a pilot but after several years your are at over 100k for commercial, and captains make over 150k.

The trades are absolutely crying for qualified people. We are turning over the rocks trying to find qualified electricians, instrument men, millwrights, first-class welders and mechanics.

Our guys are represented by the USW. At the end of the current contract, a Tech III will be making $40.38/hr - on straight time. Plus full benefits package. A new guy off the street starts at a I which is about $32. You should go thru the progression in no more than 5 years to hit top of the scale.

The problem with the trades is - when you get the call at 0200 to go out and reset some system and get the operation back up and running - you gotta go. Nobody cares that it's raining or that you don't want to. It's your J-O-B and that's why you're getting paid what you are getting paid.

Another problem is - yes, we have mandatory drug testing. That cuts down the pool, since apparently for a lot of people getting high is more desirable than making $40.38/hr.

Another requirement, which takes many prospects by surprise, is you have to show up every day and you have to be on time. Nobody cares about my wife she, my car it, my dog he. It's Monday thru Friday, 0700, every day. Be there or be square.

Finally, I would never suggest that the trades are a viable alternative to those who lack the smarts, ambition, or drive for college. If you're a bonehead with no goals and no discipline, you're going to be unsuccessful in the trades. But if you have some smarts, are willing to learn some very specialized technical skills, and know what the meaning of work is, you can build a very interesting, rewarding and lucrative career.

 

[LionFan87b]

Except that all the data screams that those with college degrees are far more successful economically. Like it or not, the college degree is statistically the most tried and true path to the middle class.

The more people go to college, the less true that is. If our job market keeps rewarding people for attending watered-down "universities," then I don't blame students for wanting to attend them. But if that's the case, then maybe our job market needs to value vocational education more than it does.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

The trades are absolutely crying for qualified people. We are turning over the rocks trying to find qualified electricians, instrument men, millwrights, first-class welders and mechanics.

Our guys are represented by the USW. At the end of the current contract, a Tech III will be making $40.38/hr - on straight time. Plus full benefits package. A new guy off the street starts at a I which is about $32. You should go thru the progression in no more than 5 years to hit top of the scale.

The problem with the trades is - when you get the call at 0200 to go out and reset some system and get the operation back up and running - you gotta go. Nobody cares that it's raining or that you don't want to. It's your J-O-B and that's why you're getting paid what you are getting paid.

Another problem is - yes, we have mandatory drug testing. That cuts down the pool, since apparently for a lot of people getting high is more desirable than making $40.38/hr.

Another requirement, which takes many prospects by surprise, is you have to show up every day and you have to be on time. Nobody cares about my wife she, my car it, my dog he. It's Monday thru Friday, 0700, every day. Be there or be square.

Finally, I would never suggest that the trades are a viable alternative to those who lack the smarts, ambition, or drive for college. If you're a bonehead with no goals and no discipline, you're going to be unsuccessful in the trades. But if you have some smarts, are willing to learn some very specialized technical skills, and know what the meaning of work is, you can build a very interesting, rewarding and lucrative career.

^^Great post.

One of the many reasons why Vo-Tech high schools are an awesome thing. They give kids options beyond going to college.

 

[LionFan87b]

The trades are absolutely crying for qualified people. We are turning over the rocks trying to find qualified electricians, instrument men, millwrights, first-class welders and mechanics.

Our guys are represented by the USW. At the end of the current contract, a Tech III will be making $40.38/hr - on straight time. Plus full benefits package. A new guy off the street starts at a I which is about $32. You should go thru the progression in no more than 5 years to hit top of the scale.

The problem with the trades is - when you get the call at 0200 to go out and reset some system and get the operation back up and running - you gotta go. Nobody cares that it's raining or that you don't want to. It's your J-O-B and that's why you're getting paid what you are getting paid.

Another problem is - yes, we have mandatory drug testing. That cuts down the pool, since apparently for a lot of people getting high is more desirable than making $40.38/hr.

Another requirement, which takes many prospects by surprise, is you have to show up every day and you have to be on time. Nobody cares about my wife she, my car it, my dog he. It's Monday thru Friday, 0700, every day. Be there or be square.

Finally, I would never suggest that the trades are a viable alternative to those who lack the smarts, ambition, or drive for college. If you're a bonehead with no goals and no discipline, you're going to be unsuccessful in the trades. But if you have some smarts, are willing to learn some very specialized technical skills, and know what the meaning of work is, you can build a very interesting, rewarding and lucrative career.

Great post! But nobody should believe that a technical trade is for boneheads. I've known trade school grads who are far smarter than most college grads, and they have very successful careers. But trade school is very different than a four-year university degree. It allows you to focus on something that really interests you. I think people need to think of trade school vs. university as two very different paths, but both very rewarding for the right person. Neither one is better than the other. Unfortunately, I think there is still a stigma attached to trade school.

 

[StinkStankStunk]

There are many facets to this VERY broad issue.....and by no means is the following the only one (and maybe not even the most impactful) but:

Very little of the discussion ever gets back to one large problem:

The COSTS of "Higher Education".....that have NOTHING to do with "education"
The incredibly bloated, dysfunctional, counter-productive hierarchy of the "Higher Education Bureaucracy"
You can't swing a dead cat around the "hallowed halls" of academia without hitting a half-dozen highly paid - and non-essential - empty suits in the head (which usually results in a temporary interruption to their slumber).........and you can't go a month at most educational institutions without seeing another multi-million dollar capital project initiated - one that has ZERO impact on the ability to educate students.

I don't think it is at all a stretch to state that if "Educational Institutions" were run by folks who placed fiscal responsibility at the forefront (as opposed to Empire Building) that the costs of education (ie Tuition) could easily be reduced by 1/4 to 1/3 - with zero negative impact on the educational experience.


I've posted links to such data (the Goldwater studies, etc) in the past.....but all one has to do is take a walk around the PSU campus, and a quick perusal of the budget, to see the impact.

 

[RLCookie]

Here is another video that illustrates what I'm talking about. I'm a high school teacher. I teach seniors. Every year on the first day of school I ask my students what they plan to do when they graduate. Almost all say they are going to college. By the end of the year most have done little to prepare yet they are accepted someplace with still no real plan or drive. After 1 or 2 semesters most have dropped out. Very few actually finish. We must get away from this idea that college is for everyone and the only way you can be successful in life is if you have a college degree.

For clarification when I say college degree I'm talking about a 4 year Bachelor's degree. I am a huge fan of 2 year Associates Degrees and all of the "Technical Institutes." I tell my kids if you want to go to school get some training and be employable in your field this is the route to go.

If you don't believe me check this out.

 

[psu1969a]

See the link below. Not terribly surprising, but the article puts some numbers behind it. From the article:

"For years, America's college campuses swelled with more and more students. But enrollment peaked in 2010 at just over 21 million students. Attendance has dropped every year since.

By the fall of 2014 -- the most recent year government data is available -- there were 812,069 fewer students walking around college campuses."

And,

"Dig a little deeper and the data gets even more troubling.

The two types of colleges with the biggest declines in enrollment are: community colleges and for-profit universities. Those schools draw heavily from low-income and minority households.

Community colleges are often lifelines for poor families. They are close to home, they don't require SAT scores, and they have cheap price tags.

President Obama proposed making community colleges free for two years because they are the gateway to higher education -- and better jobs -- for so many Americans. Since 2010, enrollment at community college has fallen by over 820,000 students."

http://money.cnn.com/2016/05/20/news/economy/college-enrollment-down/index.html

Interesting, but has eligible population increased or decreased over this period?

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

Here is another video that illustrates what I'm talking about. I'm a high school teacher. I teach seniors. Every year on the first day of school I ask my students what they plan to do when they graduate. Almost all say they are going to college. By the end of the year most have done little to prepare yet they are accepted someplace with still no real plan or drive. After 1 or 2 semesters most have dropped out. Very few actually finish. We must get away from this idea that college is for everyone and the only way you can be successful in life is if you have a college degree.

For clarification when I say college degree I'm talking about a 4 year Bachelor's degree. I am a huge fan of 2 year Associates Degrees and all of the "Technical Institutes." I tell my kids if you want to go to school get some training and be employable in your field this is the route to go.

If you don't believe me check this out.

View embedded media

An illustrative example of what you're talking about:

I have a friend, "John", who graduated from a Vocational Technical high school where time is split 50/50 between academics and trades. John didn't do terribly well or poorly in academics--middle of the road. His trade cluster was plumbing/HVAC.

Immediately after high school, he had a job opportunity and was also able to go to a local community college who offered some sort of certification in plumbing/HVAC. He got that in about a year, and then made north of $20 per hour by age 20.

Now, he's making close to double that for one of the region's largest property managers doing....you guessed it....plumbing/HVAC. John also has a side business where he does work for residential customers in his spare time, making about 50-75% of his already high full-time salary. All of this happened less than 10 years after his graduation from high school.

He has a huge house on 20+ acres, owns several properties, and is rolling in the dough. He's happy, and doing very well for his young family.

 

[Nitt1300]

How can people make money building unneeded dorms on unneeded campuses if enrollments decline?

 

[psu1969a]

The trades are absolutely crying for qualified people. We are turning over the rocks trying to find qualified electricians, instrument men, millwrights, first-class welders and mechanics.

Our guys are represented by the USW. At the end of the current contract, a Tech III will be making $40.38/hr - on straight time. Plus full benefits package. A new guy off the street starts at a I which is about $32. You should go thru the progression in no more than 5 years to hit top of the scale.

The problem with the trades is - when you get the call at 0200 to go out and reset some system and get the operation back up and running - you gotta go. Nobody cares that it's raining or that you don't want to. It's your J-O-B and that's why you're getting paid what you are getting paid.

Another problem is - yes, we have mandatory drug testing. That cuts down the pool, since apparently for a lot of people getting high is more desirable than making $40.38/hr.

Another requirement, which takes many prospects by surprise, is you have to show up every day and you have to be on time. Nobody cares about my wife she, my car it, my dog he. It's Monday thru Friday, 0700, every day. Be there or be square.

Finally, I would never suggest that the trades are a viable alternative to those who lack the smarts, ambition, or drive for college. If you're a bonehead with no goals and no discipline, you're going to be unsuccessful in the trades. But if you have some smarts, are willing to learn some very specialized technical skills, and know what the meaning of work is, you can build a very interesting, rewarding and lucrative career.

I agree that the trades are important, but a college graduate has to show every day in all kinds of weather, etc. I taught and was computer programmer. At times I had to work some evening, weekends and even holidays.

 

[NittPicker]

How can people make money building unneeded dorms on unneeded campuses if enrollments decline?

Anyone can do that as long as they are on the BoT or have connections with someone who is.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

^^Great post.

One of the many reasons why Vo-Tech high schools are an awesome thing. They give kids options beyond going to college.

Two of my classmates in high school. One guy was on the academic track. The other went to Vo-Tech and studied electronics technology. Both graduated. Fast Forward - Both wound up graduating from Penn State Capitol Campus with their 4-year BS in Engineering Technology (or whatever they call it, the 4-yr degree).

Finishing Vo-Tech means you are a high school graduate and by no means does it preclude you from going to college. The difference is when they were studying controls and circuits and what not - the one guy had already been taking them apart and putting them together and working with them for a couple of years.

 

[Art]

Art: There are schools offering degrees that have little hope in recouping the initial financial investment. A good example are 3rd and 4th tier law schools. They are fine if you aren't financing or if uncle bob can hook it up with a job. But these schools are selling kids on the dream knowing full well that a good many won't even be practicing law 5 years removed from graduation.

The problem didn't start in an "on/off" switch type of way. What happened is the government program that was supposed to enable kids to pay for college who wouldn't otherwise be able to pay for it. Gradually -- much like the housing bubble -- privateers abused the program to line their pockets.

The gist problem is twofold as I see it: 1.) some kids -- for whatever reason -- just aren't college material. It is what it is. 2.) not all degrees make practical economic sense. Like in my prior example, tier 3&4 law programs have their place, but for the most part they are lousy "investments".

And the problem is with whom, the schools because they exist or the students who choose to go to them?

 

[Ten Thousan Marbles]

Good point. And if everyone got a college education, then we'd be further in debt from paying for it and McDonalds and Wendy's would be filled with college graduates. If everyone got a degree, then it wouldn't be worth much. And let's face it, college isn't for everyone and there's nothing wrong with that.

High School is free. People drop out. It will never be the case that everyone is going to go to college.

 

[Fox Chapel Lion II]

Great post! But nobody should believe that a technical trade is for boneheads. I've known trade school grads who are far smarter than most college grads, and they have very successful careers. But trade school is very different than a four-year university degree. It allows you to focus on something that really interests you. I think people need to think of trade school vs. university as two very different paths, but both very rewarding for the right person. Neither one is better than the other. Unfortunately, I think there is still a stigma attached to trade school.

I lived in Delaware County for ten years before going back to Pittsburgh (been with my same employer my entire career after the Navy and grad school). Delco is the home of the Williamson School of Trades. You find me an unemployed Williamson grad, and he'll be the first one.

 

[miketd1]

Art: That's like asking who's to blame for the housing bubble, the banks who went to extremes to "qualify" any buyer with a pulse or the new homeowners who wanted more house than they could afford.

Both parties are culpable IMO, but as for the distribution I'm not quite certain. There's plenty of blame to go around, that's for sure...

So as for the college situation, my answer is the same.

 

[ApexLion]

Part of the enrollment decline is attributable to economics, but a lot of it is demographics. Number of HS graduates peaked in 2011, primarily as the last of the children of the Baby Boomers cycled out. Numbers dropped through 2014 and are expected to level out until 2020. Next growth spurt to be seen will come as children of immigrants, primarily Latinos, cycle through the system. How that will effect college enrollments is anyone's guess.

Correct. Most larger universities are very aware of the forecast and have already begun recruiting from the best high schools. My child is getting email and regular mail every week (we declined texts) because of her interests, gpa and high school. On two tours we attended, the admissions staff had already profiled her and were ready for us, showing us particular buildings and discussing specific programs within majors. Basically, its corporate marketing due to the dwindling numbers and competition for good students.

 

[Art]

Art: That's like asking who's to blame for the housing bubble, the banks who went to extremes to "qualify" any buyer with a pulse or the new homeowners who wanted more house than they could afford.

Both parties are culpable IMO, but as for the distribution I'm not quite certain. There's plenty of blame to go around, that's for sure...

So as for the college situation, my answer is the same.

Blame for the housing bubble is simple: both.

For a student who can't pay his or her federally-guaranteed college loans also simple: the student and/or his parents depending on the latter's involvement in the process.

 

[miketd1]

Art: I can agree with that.

 

[dawgduice]

I could be in favor of "FREE" college. BUT not the current "University system" we have. I could see more tax dollars training MORE "blacksmiths and Vikings". AND AND no accountability ???????? The system is merely a MONEY machine with zero accountability. I love that the system says" there are no guarantees" ??? Really, should it not be a contract with deliverables with VALUE ??
One example: I recently met someone working on her Master's degree for " The Holocaust and Genocide". She was working in her career now, waitress and piling up "student loans".
Accountability ?????
Or do we create another welfare system. The "IDEA" is a good one. NOT the implementation.

 

[BobPSU92]

"The world needs ditch-diggers too."

-- Judge Smails

 

[Art]

I could be in favor of "FREE" college. BUT not the current "University system" we have. I could see more tax dollars training MORE "blacksmiths and Vikings". AND AND no accountability ???????? The system is merely a MONEY machine with zero accountability. I love that the system says" there are no guarantees" ??? Really, should it not be a contract with deliverables with VALUE ??
One example: I recently met someone working on her Master's degree for " The Holocaust and Genocide". She was working in her career now, waitress and piling up "student loans".
Accountability ?????
Or do we create another welfare system. The "IDEA" is a good one. NOT the implementation.

There is accountability: you take out a loan, you repay it or face the consequences.

As far as guaranteed outcomes go, that's absurd on its face.

 

[miketd1]

Art: the problem is that there is no consequence for the lender. The credit extended does not match the risk. And you've seen how a lot of people treat credit...