Consequences needed for 'ducking'

[GogglesPaizano]

Fans have missed out on at least a half dozen marquee matches this year for lets say questionable circumstances. This can and should be fixable.

Certain coaches have done this so often for several years that it has obviously become a tool to protect seeds.

Come on Flo bit the bullet, you can set the trend, and put some pressure on the ncaa by modifying how you seed.

You should not be able to protect your seed not wrestling. Period!

I am totally cool with the NCAA penalizing this in terms of ranking (PSU included). I'll leave the details to folks smarter than me, but I have a suggestion or two.

I said it 2 years ago when Snyder missed half of his matches wrestling overseas. Sure he is the best in the world but wrestling half the season should have consequences.

(1) To get and maintain a top 8 AA equivalent seed I say you need a 15 match minimum including tournaments for unaltered seeding into the conference tournaments.

(2) Once demonstrated 'starter' via attendance in 1 match, if you miss a match against anyone else in the top 8 it is considered a loss for seeding purposes only.

Basically the same as an injury defalt except it doesn't officially get logged as a loss for obvious reasons, but is considered s loss for seeding.

I was ok with Nolf getting dinged last year despite his being the best in his class without doubt, why shouldn't ducking, missing, resting, sickness, whatever, carry some negative consequences as well?

What's the real downside, Snyder mowing his way to a championship as a #4 vs #1? Nolf took it in stride too. It will change the behaviors of #2-#8 though, I friggin guarantee it
They need something to stop this shit.

 

[Dogwelder]

As has been mentioned by others before, giving a good wrestler a low seed is unfair to the people he has to wrestle. So, instead of messing with seedings, proven "duckers" should be forced to wear the yellow "singlet" at NCAAs:

 

[CholleyVandine]

Remind me who Kyle Snyder was ducking?

 

[jschrantz]

Remind me who Kyle Snyder was ducking?

He was legit wrestling better senior guys in other countries with bigger goals in mind, I’d think he’s a rare rare exception

 

[lookleft goright]

The simple way to do it is give the coaches rankings a higher per cent total of the final ranking. The problem is, if the guy is truly good enough, then he may knock a quality guy out of placing because of where he is seeded. No simple answer, but I am all for allowing the coaches to have more power in the seeding.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Remind me who Kyle Snyder was ducking?

Not surprisingly you missed the entire point, this is the ncaa's intercollegiate athletics. Competition is the charter, this isn't supposed to be multi level chess to jury rig seeds for the conference meets. In college you are an amateur athlete, you have scheduled meets and if you fail to attend those meats there should be a consequence. Snyder wasn't ducking anybody - only you brought that take into the discussion. So what's your point? if you are top 4 and you wrestle no matches, 2 matches, 10 matches (what's the number you suggest) should they get a freebie and retain their top 4 seed regardless, is that your point?

 

[GogglesPaizano]

The simple way to do it is give the coaches rankings a higher per cent total of the final ranking. The problem is, if the guy is truly good enough, then he may knock a quality guy out of placing because of where he is seeded. No simple answer, but I am all for allowing the coaches to have more power in the seeding.

I am for more wrestling and less sitting. Pretty simple.

 

[Lyco1990]

Can’t be done, who is going to judge legit injury vs ducking? BTW I have no issue with him not Wrestling Wood, however, Wrestling against ISU when obviously not ready is the questionable decision to me.

 

[nitlion6]

Can’t be done, who is going to judge legit injury vs ducking? BTW I have no issue with him not Wrestling Wood, however, Wrestling against ISU when obviously not ready is the questionable decision to me.

Yes and yes, mostly.
If Tommy had sent Sammy out to wrestle Snyder with the match on line, and if Tommy was serious about Sammy not wrestling against ISU why even let him dress, and if Sammy was healthy enough to wrestle ISU you would think he would be healthy enough to wrestle Wood.
Now with that all said, its Iowa and Iowa needs fun to be made of just because.

 

[aalion]

Keep in mind ranking does not equal seeding. Rankings mean absolutely nothing. The coaches who seed the wrestlers for post season tourneys can solve this “problem” if they think it is a problem.

 

[Dwayne_Johnson33]

Nobody likes ducking but Flo doesn't have anything to do with seeding. The current seeding criteria does take into consideration a few points that you made 1. A wrestler misses a match against a tough opponent to protect his seed, that's going to affect his "quality wins" metric 2. A wrestler shouldn't be seeded unless he's wrestled at least 15 matches. Not so much unseeded but a wrestler needs to compete in at least 17 matches in order to get ranked in RPI which is another seeding metric.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Can’t be done, who is going to judge legit injury vs ducking? BTW I have no issue with him not Wrestling Wood, however, Wrestling against ISU when obviously not ready is the questionable decision to me.

Hey we're all friends here we all want the same thing which is great wrestling. I think we should acknowledge, If something different isn't done nothing will change and I think we can all admit that there is some ducking going on and today there is 0 consequence. The fans lose the most.

I suspect on balance wrestlers are coaches are ducking in the vast minority of cases probably 15% or less. That's said, this isn't MLB and we shouldn't be stacking our pitching rotations based upon the opponents we are projecting in the post season

I think a ranked wrestler needs to "earn" his rank every week. A good example Seth Gross. Everyone knows he's number one until proven otherwise, but if he's not wrestling in my world he shouldn't retain that ranking. He seems to have some kind of injury and he'll come back at some point, but right now as he misses matches against other ranked wrestlers he should start to fall in the rankings until he gets back in the game.

Now let's talk about Nolf last year. in a practical sense everyone knows he was not only number 1 but number 2 is so distant that it makes little sense to put him anywhere but #1. We'll he got hurt had to forfeit, it counted as a loss, and he lost his number one ranking. The situation repeated at Big10s when he qualified then dropped out. Why is it then if he sustained the same injury, 2 days earlier in practice, and missed the next month and a half he would have stayed number one, same wrestler same injury, same time out?

What is so terrible about the concept of having to earn, maintain and re-earn your ranking through competition as the year goes forward? This little change would virtually eliminate ducking because the consequences would be punitive.

Do any of us really care if VJ, Bo, Mark, Nick, Shak, AC or Nolf dropped 1 or 2 slots in the rankings because they got sick, while in return it eliminated ducking? I don't they are going to end up beating the same guys anyway.

Cael is a the kid's wrestle and let the chips fall where they may type a guy and I can't recall even one instance where we were we were suspected of ducking a match. Oddly enough if you look at the next top 4 or 5 programs it seems like there are numerous suspicious examples.

Admittedly, I think a possible downside would be that some wrestlers who are sick or had a minor injury would still choose to wrestle where they otherwise would have sat out, but proper coaching & oversight could eliminate this factor.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Nobody likes ducking but Flo doesn't have anything to do with seeding. The current seeding criteria does take into consideration a few points that you made 1. A wrestler misses a match against a tough opponent to protect his seed, that's going to affect his "quality wins" metric 2. A wrestler shouldn't be seeded unless he's wrestled at least 15 matches. Not so much unseeded but a wrestler needs to compete in at least 17 matches in order to get ranked in RPI which is another seeding metric.

Flo could alter their rankings. Admittedly it probably would have little effect, but it would start to call out the issue.

 

[PSUer1989]

PSU wrestlers want to wrestle everyone because that prepares them best for March. A wrestler who skips a match with a ranked wrestler misses an opportunity to learn about a potential future opponent- a roadblock to AA or national championship. That strategy seems to be working just fine for PSU, so what other teams do may impact the thrill of a dual, but in the long run doesn't impact PSU.

 

[RoarLions1]

Nobody likes ducking but Flo doesn't have anything to do with seeding. The current seeding criteria does take into consideration a few points that you made 1. A wrestler misses a match against a tough opponent to protect his seed, that's going to affect his "quality wins" metric 2. A wrestler shouldn't be seeded unless he's wrestled at least 15 matches. Not so much unseeded but a wrestler needs to compete in at least 17 matches in order to get ranked in RPI which is another seeding metric.

Nobody likes ducking but Flo doesn't have anything to do with seeding. The current seeding criteria does take into consideration a few points that you made 1. A wrestler misses a match against a tough opponent to protect his seed, that's going to affect his "quality wins" metric 2. A wrestler shouldn't be seeded unless he's wrestled at least 15 matches. Not so much unseeded but a wrestler needs to compete in at least 17 matches in order to get ranked in RPI which is another seeding metric.

Just re. the “shouldn’t be seeded” comment. First, EVERY wrestler will be seeded this season, 1 to 33. Next, in your scenario, Kyle Snyder, Isaiah Martinez, and Nathan Tomasello would not have been seeded this past March...and would have been a random draw for a 1-16 guy. That’s a champ, another finalist, and a third-place finisher. Seems far worse to me. This is a slippery slope all.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Just re. the “shouldn’t be seeded” comment. First, EVERY wrestler will be seeded this season, 1 to 33. Next, in your scenario, Kyle Snyder, Isaiah Martinez, and Nathan Tomasello would not have been seeded this past March...and would have been a random draw for a 1-16 guy. That’s a champ, another finalist, and a third-place finisher. Seems far worse to me. This is a slippery slope all.

In theory, they might not have been seeded top 8 into the Big10s, but as big 10 champs they would all have been top 4 if not #1

 

[Dwayne_Johnson33]

Just re. the “shouldn’t be seeded” comment. First, EVERY wrestler will be seeded this season, 1 to 33. Next, in your scenario, Kyle Snyder, Isaiah Martinez, and Nathan Tomasello would not have been seeded this past March...and would have been a random draw for a 1-16 guy. That’s a champ, another finalist, and a third-place finisher. Seems far worse to me. This is a slippery slope all.

I probably should have quoted goggles post. To be clear i was addressing his initial post. It wasn't my scenario, sorry for the confusion.

 

[RoarLions1]

In theory, they might not have been seeded to 8 into the Big10s, but as big 10 champs they would all have been top 4 if not #1

They had fewer than 15 bouts heading to nationals. That was my point, though I’ll repeat...consequences beyond what is already available through coached rankings, RPI, and win % is a slippery slope. The system already takes into consideration much, if not all that’s happening. Seems to me some want to go beyond that. I like the current system.

 

[El-Jefe]

Can anyone cite any wrestlers who were overseeded at nationals because they ducked regular season matches?

 

[PSUbluTX]

PSU wrestlers want to wrestle everyone because that prepares them best for March. A wrestler who skips a match with a ranked wrestler misses an opportunity to learn about a potential future opponent- a roadblock to AA or national championship. That strategy seems to be working just fine for PSU, so what other teams do may impact the thrill of a dual, but in the long run doesn't impact PSU.

I had the same thought. Ducking unfairly "penalizes" one's opponent by depriving him of the chance to measure himself against top competition and get better. It also deprives them of the chance to have a "quality win" for seeding purposes.

And I'm probably missing something, but I don't really get the point that giving a good wrestler a low seed is unfair to the people he has to wrestle. I thought the primary purpose of the nat'l tournament was to identify the best wrestlers at each weight and crown a national champ, not worry about how soon someone is eliminated. Plus, the lowest seeds are paired with the top seeds in the brackets anyway, right?

 

[raslen007]

As has been mentioned by others before, giving a good wrestler a low seed is unfair to the people he has to wrestle. So, instead of messing with seedings, proven "duckers" should be forced to wear the yellow "singlet" at NCAAs:

Please place Tim's head onto that suit.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Can anyone cite any wrestlers who were overseeded at nationals because they ducked regular season matches?

Because all of the guys in question are top seeds of course they were not 'over seeded'. That has never been the focus of this discussion. the point I'm trying to make is we as fans are being denied some great matches because guys are sitting under questionable circumstances. the result being if their seed were threatened by sitting, they would stop sitting and we would see a better quality wrestling product, with more top 8 vs top 8 competition.

 

[jmadden1998]

Because all of the guys in question are top seeds of course they were not 'over seeded'. That has never been the focus of this discussion. the point I'm trying to make is we as fans are being denied some great matches because guys are sitting under questionable circumstances. the result being if their seed were threatened by sitting, they would stop sitting and we would see a better quality wrestling product, with more top 8 vs top 8 competition.

And then maybe less top 8 vs top 8 in March if a guy aggravates a minor injury and can’t go. Which do you prefer?

 

[El-Jefe]

Because all of the guys in question are top seeds of course they were not 'over seeded'. That has never been the focus of this discussion. the point I'm trying to make is we as fans are being denied some great matches because guys are sitting under questionable circumstances. the result being if their seed were threatened by sitting, they would stop sitting and we would see a better quality wrestling product, with more top 8 vs top 8 competition.

Good luck proving that a wrestler ducked an opponent. Let alone for the purpose of applying a penalty.

Also, the penalties don't magically appear out of thin air. Some real person has to determine them and apply them. And it's ripe for abuse.

Let's say Ryan is still head of the seeding committee (he might be). If he thinks he can sniff a title, then Cenzo ducked Hollingshead and gets docked, and good luck proving otherwise.

Not that any of this matters. All that matters in this thread is if fans feel good, not if the wrestlers themselves do.

 

[El-Jefe]

And to refute the other point, I can think of one IMO blatant case of ducking that did result in an NCAA overseed.

A few years ago, Gelogaev decked Bradley. Bradley then missed the Poke dual despite wrestling the dual before and after.

Bradley wound up getting the #1 seed at nationals as the MAC champ. And there he crapped the bed, so it turned out OK.

 

[a_mshaffer]

I think you should always be grateful to have a chance at wrestling someone who is good during the season...

 

[GogglesPaizano]

And then maybe less top 8 vs top 8 in March if a guy aggravates a minor injury and can’t go. Which do you prefer?

Did you wrestle? I did and 50% of our team had minor injuries at any given time. All these kids that are taped up or wearing knee braces are hurting. If it gets bad enough then they should sit what's the big deal if they drop a few slots and just compete in March from a lower seed. The point being how do we stop what is becoming an ever increasing number of questionable no shows in big dual matches. I guess you support ducking, I don't. No harm no fowl the board is probably divided 50/50 on this one.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

Good luck proving that a wrestler ducked an opponent. Let alone for the purpose of applying a penalty.

Also, the penalties don't magically appear out of thin air. Some real person has to determine them and apply them. And it's ripe for abuse.

Let's say Ryan is still head of the seeding committee (he might be). If he thinks he can sniff a title, then Cenzo ducked Hollingshead and gets docked, and good luck proving otherwise.

Not that any of this matters. All that matters in this thread is if fans feel good, not if the wrestlers themselves do.

Did you read my post? No one will ever to be able to prove ducking. That's why I propose treating all no shows the same. In every other sport if a superstar misses a game the team doesn't get a free ride.

Taken to the extreme if a guy is a #3 seed it makes no sense to ever wrestle any other top 8 guy. Too little to gain too much to lose if all that you care about is you conference/Nationals seed.

So if this hypothetical guy skipped 7 matches vs ranked opponents do you think there should be no consequence? Today that's the case.

 

[SWPA]

Can anyone cite any wrestlers who were overseeded at nationals because they ducked regular season matches?

I can't but I do think there are wrestlers that have a higher seed than they should at nationals because they have a weaker schedule.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I don't really get the point that giving a good wrestler a low seed is unfair to the people he has to wrestle. I thought the primary purpose of the nat'l tournament was to identify the best wrestlers at each weight and crown a national champ, not worry about how soon someone is eliminated. Plus, the lowest seeds are paired with the top seeds in the brackets anyway, right?

So you're okay if RBY has to wrestle Suriano in Rd 1 because Suriano got injured in late February? Apply that across the board. Yes, a wrestler has to beat all comers to be the champ, but it certainly is far easier to do so if you only have to face a top tier guy from the quarters onward.

 

[lookleft goright]

Can anyone cite any wrestlers who were overseeded at nationals because they ducked regular season matches?

If I remember correctly, Missouri had a few who were seeded pretty high and this conversation took place after seeing the seeds for last years NCAAs.

 

[nerfstate]

I feel like there isn't a practical or fair way to do this with seeding. If you want to dis-incentivize "ducking" you might have to tie dual participation/performance to NCAA points--which we all know here is not popular with our staff. I could maybe see a system where, if the person you send to the conference tourney has "perfect" dual attendance, you get a point or two--but there is bound to be unintended consequences. Maybe you could do it with qualification somehow instead--but most of this high profile duckers/duckees are going to be qualified regardless.

If I had a genie, I'd ask for all D1 coaches to have the same philosophy and approach to duals and high profile matchups that our staff does--but alas.... The self-fulfilling prophecy of "duals don't matter" is going to continue to fester it seems, until major changes are made.

A question for you all: why do wrestling fans/coaches/participants like to debate rules so much? Maybe I just don't follow other sports closely enough, but it seems like the chatter is always feverish mid-season in wrestling, but not so much with other sports.

 

[El-Jefe]

Did you read my post?

I'm not paid by the word count.

 

[CentexLion]

As has been mentioned by others before, giving a good wrestler a low seed is unfair to the people he has to wrestle. So, instead of messing with seedings, proven "duckers" should be forced to wear the yellow "singlet" at NCAAs:

Buddy of mine has been asked to quote a new statue for Carver, to be placed beside the Gable/Stalling statue. Here is the photo they asked him to use as the model. Supposedly sponsored by Dresser, and the requirement is to make the base Orange (no idea what that means - someone needs to clue me in on that). The statue was going to be moveable versus permanent, but it was decided that it would not be in their best interest to take it on the road (especially this year), unless the BIG requires them. I have for you, the Brands/Ducking statue

 

[GogglesPaizano]

So you're okay if RBY has to wrestle Suriano in Rd 1 because Suriano got injured in late February? Apply that across the board. Yes, a wrestler has to beat all comers to be the champ, but it certainly is far easier to do so if you only have to face a top tier guy from the quarters onward.

You do realize this is limited to the top 8 seeds only? So in theory he would drop but not out of the top 8.

So for big 10s, my answer is yes, if RBY got Voldemort in R1 we would have to deal with it.

Conference results obviously would self correct bringing the cream back to the top seeds for Nationals in most cases.

That said, I am exhausted. No more replies. May have to delete this thread soon. Too many ducker appologists, with too few counter proposals.

 

[LorenzoFan]

Penalizing the ducker can ruin team races and knock deserving kids.to.the back side before they should be

 

[nitlion6]

You do realize this is limited to the top 8 seeds only? So in theory he would drop but not out of the top 8.

So for big 10s, my answer is yes, if RBY got Voldemort in R1 we would have to deal with it.

Conference results obviously would self correct bringing the cream back to the top seeds for Nationals in most cases.

That said, I am exhausted. No more replies. May have to delete this thread soon. Too many ducker appologists, with too few counter proposals.

I am pretty sure the most popular counter proposal has been to do nothing.

 

[SRATH]

I am fine letting coaches manage their teams as they see fit. The old line Joe used, I want your money, just not your two cents, applies.

 

[Psu_rings]

Can anyone cite any wrestlers who were overseeded at nationals because they ducked regular season matches?

It was total bull crap what Ohio State pulled the other year holding Bo Jordan out against Hall...Jordan had a very tough time against the Iowa guy and won by 1 point...OHIO STATE WAS PROTECTING BO SEED AND THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN SEEDING....There was NOTHING wrong with him....They say ankle...Yea right !!!! He was fine after the Iowa match.....It sure back fired on them and Mark made sure.....He and the PSU Coaches were pissed....

 

[GogglesPaizano]

It was total bull crap what Ohio State pulled the other year holding Bo Jordan out against Hall...Jordan had a very tough time against the Iowa guy and won by 1 point...OHIO STATE WAS PROTECTING BO SEED AND THAT SHOULD BE TAKEN INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN SEEDING....There was NOTHING wrong with him....They say ankle...Yea right !!!! He was fine after the Iowa match.....It sure back fired on them and Mark made sure.....He and the PSU Coaches were pissed....

Ok last one

Just when I needed it Spyker comes to my defense. I am in your debt! Without coming right out and saying it earlier, tOSU is the poster child for missing matches under curious circumstances to protect their seeds.

FLO must be designing their shows around my posts as the issue of ducking rubs Willie in particular the wrong way, and I agree with his sentiments exactly. Vindication #1.

As For Ryan Anderson and Vindication point #2, FLO was funny today. I said nothing negative about Ryan's heart or level of fight. His record speaks for itself. The only fight I see him losing is the one to stay away from the all you can eat buffet. After just a little searching I found this shot of him as a freshman in his first HS singlet.

https://goo.gl/images/3n7GGV

At least I think that was the right Anderson