Come to think of it, you're correct. That has severely hampered Southern Cal's recruiting efforts.
Dear Athletic Dept, I humbly submit for your consideration that the time to return to nameless
- Thread starter Zenophile
- Start date
Oh God ---- really??? Judge Smails' post was solely about his "hatred" for Paterno? Come on, you're better than playing that card.
FWIW, I do agree that this "issue" (as it is) is 100% the head coach's call. I'd prefer no names, but our Head Coach right now is Franklin --- so whatever he wants our team to be wearing, I'll support the guys wearing that uniform.
I like the meaning behind the tradition of no names.
That said... we live in a different time. Every game is on TV, everyone has big screens. You can read the names on TV, unlike in a stadium. Top kids today are even more focused on exposure and promoting themselves for the next level. Even "team players." Kids promote themselves on YouTube, Twitter, etc. They expect to have the exposure, not be nameless. IMHO, O'Brien's excuse about honoring those who stayed was just that--an excuse to do what needed done.
The program needed modernized in several facets. To me, the core values of getting an education and graduating student athletes at a high level, while not cheating, and while competing at a high level (doesn't have to be a championship every year, but competitive) are our most important traditions and values. The rest supports that to varying degrees. As someone who was in the Blue Band during the last National Championship (dating myself here), I understand the value of, and have over the years enjoyed, numerous traditions. And while I appreciate traditions like the uniforms, some things come and go over time. As long as we don't stray from the core principles. I don't see no names on the jerseys as a core principle, I see it as a tradition. One that two coaches felt was necessary to change. Hey, all "traditions" were brand new at some point.
While I'm not sure I'm used to the names (it still stands out to me when I see it), I must admit as a fan I appreciate them. Makes learning the roster easier, and watching the games more enjoyable. If we went back to no names I would enjoy that as someone who appreciates traditions and uniqueness. But if we never did go back, it wouldn't negatively affect my enjoyment of the game, nor my support of the team. It's not worth getting the proverbial panties in a bunch over, in the grand scheme of things.
That said... we live in a different time. Every game is on TV, everyone has big screens. You can read the names on TV, unlike in a stadium. Top kids today are even more focused on exposure and promoting themselves for the next level. Even "team players." Kids promote themselves on YouTube, Twitter, etc. They expect to have the exposure, not be nameless. IMHO, O'Brien's excuse about honoring those who stayed was just that--an excuse to do what needed done.
The program needed modernized in several facets. To me, the core values of getting an education and graduating student athletes at a high level, while not cheating, and while competing at a high level (doesn't have to be a championship every year, but competitive) are our most important traditions and values. The rest supports that to varying degrees. As someone who was in the Blue Band during the last National Championship (dating myself here), I understand the value of, and have over the years enjoyed, numerous traditions. And while I appreciate traditions like the uniforms, some things come and go over time. As long as we don't stray from the core principles. I don't see no names on the jerseys as a core principle, I see it as a tradition. One that two coaches felt was necessary to change. Hey, all "traditions" were brand new at some point.
While I'm not sure I'm used to the names (it still stands out to me when I see it), I must admit as a fan I appreciate them. Makes learning the roster easier, and watching the games more enjoyable. If we went back to no names I would enjoy that as someone who appreciates traditions and uniqueness. But if we never did go back, it wouldn't negatively affect my enjoyment of the game, nor my support of the team. It's not worth getting the proverbial panties in a bunch over, in the grand scheme of things.
If I thought putting names on the uniforms would help erase the Sandusky stigma in any meaningful way I would say put them on in letters a foot high.
A bit of intended hyperbole on my part to counter his assertion that having the names on the uniforms has anything to do with recruiting. In reality, I'm to the point where I don't care all that much what Penn State does with its football uniforms, or otherwise.
Well there's the problem...kids nowadays don't want to be part of a team. This is the "me" generation.
You mean like you, when JVP didn't retire in time to suit you? Unlike you, it's about far more than football in my case.
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If anyone thinks putting names on or off a jersey has anything to do with "innovation" they are truly mistaken. Innovation is the "white out" as an event. Innovation is video replay (when the feed works...ahem). Or any number of things that actually differentiate our program, game-day atmosphere or the game experience in general. If we are talking about an advantage in recruiting I might argue that being different (no names) is a better pitch. At least you have a story and history to back it up and talk to recruits about.
The point being, if Joe had retired, Sandusky never happened, and we had a more orderly transition with our reputation intact, then maybe the coaches would have said we're keeping with tradition, we're Penn State, and if you come play here, your name isn't on the jersey. Much like some other teams that were mentioned.
Some of you, apparently have short memories and think everything is just peachey again, like nothing happened. Wrong.
We were Pedophile U, with sanctions that looked like they would send the program back to playing Lackawanna and Lehigh. The coaches felt we needed every edge to recruit with. They couldn't do a wholesale uniform change without sending half the fanbase into a coronary and early death, and they needed their support. So, names on the jerseys was the best they could do, along those lines to modernize.
Franklin, while a great salesman, is still faced with the challenge of selling top kids with offers to numerous programs, many of them winning and winning big (see: Alabama), on the idea of coming here and not winning right away, for a payoff when they're upperclassmen. He's not going to give up a tool in recruiting at this stage, no matter how small.
What I think might happen... a couple of possible scenarios. 1.) names come off once we're "back" 2.) names come off for special occasions (Homecoming, big game, big bowl game, etc.). It's possible the names stay on permanently, but I suspect #2 is the most likely scenario.
No one said putting the names on was innovative. It was just aligning the program with 98% of the programs who do have names on their jerseys, and players getting more recognition.
Being different only works if the kids think that difference is cool. Just because you and I like the tradition, doesn't mean the majority of today's 17 and 18 year old recruits like it. As I just reminded everyone in my other post, once the sanctions came down, we weren't in a position to keep a tradition that could be turning good recruits away when we were recruiting with two hands and a leg tied behind our back.
No, some of us think we won't lose a single recruit if we take the names off and return to a time honored tradition. "Mom, I was all set to announce for Penn State because I love Coach Franklin, 100K fans, beautiful campus, success with honor, terrific academics....but they took the names off the unis so I'm going to Pitt."
Please let me know when you find a single recruit that says this matters to him. I'm not saying there are none. I'm just saying I haven't heard of one. Just find me one kid, just one, who says he would not pick Penn State if his name was not on his uniform. And please spare me the idea that if all other things were equal, it would make a difference. All other things are never that equal and if they were, and if both schools had names on the back, what's next...coin flip?
And apparently the coaches disagree with you. They're the ones interacting with said recruits every day. I'll defer to their judgement on this one.
BTW, that was not the conversation after the sanctions. It was probably more like: "Mom, I can play for conference championships all 4 years, I can play with the best skilled teammates, I can go to bowl games... or I could play for Penn State.
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You assume if the names stay, it's because of the coaches "interacting with said recruits". I make no such assumption. It could be just because the AD, or the BOT, or the Barron, let Franklin know they want no reminders of the Paterno era. Like I said, I will be more likely to change my position if you find a single recruit that says names matter. That is about all I have to say on the matter. All I know is that my opinion won't mean anything in making the final decision, so further debate is sort of pointless.
OK, lets talk about STEP.
By the way, I like the fact that in this banter you never once resorted to name calling. Others would profit by your example.
And if he can assemble talented athletes from the "me" generation, get them to buy in to the idea of team above self, they will be unstoppable.
I would take the names off, and tell those big recruits. "If you come play at PSU, you won't need to have your name on your jersey for everyone to know who you are." But I would let seniors have their name on senior day.
The bigger issue is to 'bag the combat uniforms'. They suck. I have no problem bringing the uniform (especially the helmet) up to the 21st century but please no crappy uniforms such as what Maryland wears.
Franklin wants the names on the back of the jerseys. My guess is he has a good reason for wanting them there.
Interesting discussion but names are going to stay in my estimation.
Donate a few millions to have them removed if you are so inclined.
Donate a few millions to have them removed if you are so inclined.
We have gone through more uniform changes than people realize over the years. Numbers off the helmets, strips off the pants, faceguard color change, collar/sleve contrast removal, chipmonk logo on the front, shade of blue change... for some reason, it's the names that get everyone up in arms.
And that is why retiring Cappy's number was wrong. He should have realized that and refused the proffered honor.
Simple way to handle "me" generation. Want to get college degree for free? Want to to get chance to be picked for NFL? Do as I say, or go back to wherever.
Cappelletti wasn't made aware of the intention to retire his number until the 11th hour. It was so late that he would have had to 'make a scene' in order to decline it, and he elected to not 'make a scene'. Just FYI.
No, no kid is going to mention names on or off as being the deciding factor for them choosing any team. That's not what it is about. If we have the names on the jerseys (which I don't like) then the coaching staff can, and does, send a made up picture to the recruit with his name on a Penn State uniform. The impact would be to imply that the kid is already considered a member of the Team but that practice would have little meaning if we didn't have names on the jerseys when playing the games. I don't believe Franklin believes the practice to be a major selling point, but considers it to be one of the little extras to influence the kid. He uses every tool no matter how little the impact.
It's like a corporation trying to hire an important prospect. They offer him a huge salary, bonus, stock plan, beautiful office, secretary, car and a special parking space. The parking space is not going to be the reason he accepts the position but is yet another indication of how much he is wanted and it has influence.
I understand the reasoning, but I don't agree it's a factor when OSU, or LSU, or FSU, can do the exact same thing. A kid has photos of himself in 27 different uniforms and says "Dad, I want to go to Penn State because my name looks better on their uniform than on the one I got from OSU." USC had the #1 class in the country last year and they did it with no names on their back. I know, I know, they didn't have Sandusky, but they've had their run ins with the NCAA and they still managed a top class without selling out their traditions. Well, that's it for me on this topic. I need to start a thread on STEP.
Okay, why do you think Franklin does that? Does the Staff do this to kill time. If OSU, LSU and whoever do this, why do you think they do it?
I think they do this because they feel it helps influence recruits. I think those pictures imply "we consider you one of us".
I think it's one of 3 reasons. One, because he personally likes it which I hope is the reason because I find it most acceptable. Two, because nearly everyone else does it, which is disappointing....."WE ARE...JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE". Three, because our AD (or President, or BOT) quietly told him to do it, which I find to be the most troubling possibility. The bottom line is I cannot change it, so I must accept it, but I don't have to like it, and I don't.
There is a multitude of things we do in recruiting that is "just like everybody else" and we do it, not because everybody else does it, but because it works. The Staff does not like wasting and energy on things that don't work.
I am extremely confident that the Ad, President, or BOT didn't tell the football Staff to send pictures to recruits.
We could go round and round on this. USC proves it works better with no names. We do agree about the photos, but I was only referring to the names. In any event, for now, at least, it appears the names will remain and life will go on.
You didn't meant as a personal dig but you specifically called out Spider's wife?
M'kay.
I don't think this is really about the names. I think many here don't want anything changed from when Paterno left. If he had put names on the uniforms for the 2011 season or
sooner, there would be no discussion unless Franklin removed them.
The way I see it, each coach at Penn State is allowed to both honor the values and traditions of the institution as well as create their own values and traditions. After all, there are plenty of things we love and cherish about Penn State football that weren't traditions until a coach (often Joe, but some from coaches prior to him) made them so. In this case, I don't think it can be questioned that either O'Brien or Franklin are failing to honor the values that Penn State is built on - in fact, I think they've both been exemplary stewards of carrying on the values and beliefs that helped make our program special. At the same time, I don't believe that either should be forced to do everything the way it has always been done, and I think both should be given leway to leave their own marks on the football program - provided that those actions continue to carry on the values of the institution. In this case, I don't think it can be debated that whether the jerseys have names or they don't, the players playing together as one unit and as equal brothers is really what is important - and is the value behind the symbol of nameless jerseys. As long as our players continue to live up to the value of playing as one unit, I don't see the difference in whether the physical jerseys have names on them or not - although I admit I do like the aesthetic of named jerseys much more than the ones without the names.
Yeah, that is what I was trying to allude to. Changing anything from the Paterno era is a struggle.
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