Did i miss breaking news???

[dicemen99]

I'm not making fun of the Brands brothers, I just don't think they are as good as coaches as believed by the majority of people, especially on HR, but even here. Tom had zero success at VT (to be kind; a 1-15 dual season is just beyond the pale for a top-level coach); won three championships at Iowa with the true double-recruiting class; and has won one share of a B1G title in the seven year stretch since that time. Iowa has been runnerup in the NCAA a single time in the last 7 years.

Obviously, the Brands are unfortunate in being at Iowa when Cael is at PSU. But at a certain point when you are having as little success (as expected/demanded) as they are having at a program that is still "the" college wrestling program in the eyes of many (a majority of?) people, I think any sensible person would have to wonder if their perceived quality as coaches is not in line with their actual quality.

I think that the Brands are among the best coaches in the NCAA. But it is interesting to note that take PSU out of the equation and Iowa still hasn't won a championship since his initial three year run. The only year they finished 2nd, tOSU won the title

During the last seven years, OK State has finished ahead of Iowa four times, tOSU three times and Minnesota three times so I'd say those four teams are all jockeying for 2nd place with tOSU having the clear lead in momentum and Minnesota tailing off with the demise of JRob. So, you could argue that the Brands probably slot in behind Smith and Ryan in a current look on things.

 

[Dogwelder]

Admittedly I'm being a bit of a word Nazi ... of course he "could" make the lineup. He's still a 2x champ + 3x finalist with 2 career losses. Those guys don't exactly grow on trees. Not even the trees outside Rec Hall.

"Would" is another matter. That certainly isn't a given.

Another ~word for WordNazi is WordDogbert:

 

[a_mshaffer]

if either were not a good coach, they would have been gone a long time ago. Gable would have seen to it. If he thinks they're good, then they are.

 

[NoVa Lion]

if either were not a good coach, they would have been gone a long time ago. Gable would have seen to it. If he thinks they're good, then they are.

They are good coaches. They just aren't Gable. No one is, although Cael is working on it.

 

[johnstownsteel]

Funny you guys just can't get enough of making fun of the Brands brothers. Nice to sit behind a computer..

Huh? Wtf.....are you being serious or is that a tongue in cheek kinda reply? Surely you don't think we missed the garbage you've posted over on HR do you? You're all over the place....anywhere from lumping PSU wrestling and their fans into the Sandusky tradgedy to Cael cheating to beat Iowa and everyone else out of recruits.

And you did it all sitting behind your computer....

 

[Pennstate1985]

Huh? Wtf.....are you being serious or is that a tongue in cheek kinda reply? Surely you don't think we missed the garbage you've posted over on HR do you? You're all over the place....anywhere from lumping PSU wrestling and their fans into the Sandusky tradgedy to Cael cheating to beat Iowa and everyone else out of recruits.

And you did it all sitting behind your computer....

I noticed.

 

[TangSoo]

Funny you guys just can't get enough of making fun of the Brands brothers. Nice to sit behind a computer..

Nothing but respect and admiration for Tom Brands (Terry's a bit out there but means well). Not sure what you're bitchin about. Spyker????????????

 

[WildTurk]

It always goes both ways..

 

[Cowbell Man]

It always goes both ways..

Never use absolutes.

 

[matter7172]

if either were not a good coach, they would have been gone a long time ago. Gable would have seen to it. If he thinks they're good, then they are.

I know Gable was a very successful coach, but this might be attributing way too much to him. He couldn't possibly be wrong about their coaching ability?

 

[WildTurk]

Never use absolutes.

Unless it's the truth

 

[WildTurk]

I know Gable was a very successful coach, but this might be attributing way too much to him. He couldn't possibly be wrong about their coaching ability?

You are a Fool for thinking the Brands cant coach, same as the poeple that think Cael cannot. Goes both ways.

 

[purescurve]

Unless it's the truth

You can"t handle the truth- just kidding

 

[Cowbell Man]

Unless it's the truth

Lol. You mean the absolute truth?

 

[matter7172]

You are a Fool for thinking the Brands cant coach, same as the poeple that think Cael cannot. Goes both ways.

Geez. Try reading more carefully. I didn't say they can't coach, although a 1-15 duals record might lead one to think that way.

"I'm not making fun of the Brands brothers, I just don't think they are as good as coaches as believed by the majority of people, especially on HR, but even here." That's what I actually said. Pretend you are not on HR, where ignoring what people actually say and claiming they said something else entirely is thought to be de rigueur, please.

 

[El-Jefe]

Geez. Try reading more carefully. I didn't say they can't coach, although a 1-15 duals record might lead one to think that way.

"I'm not making fun of the Brands brothers, I just don't think they are as good as coaches as believed by the majority of people, especially on HR, but even here." That's what I actually said. Pretend you are not on HR, where ignoring what people actually say and claiming they said something else entirely is thought to be de rigueur, please.

He can read just fine. Questioning Gable's judgment of Brands' coaching ability ... Gumby would be proud of that stretch.

 

[matter7172]

He can read just fine. Questioning Gable's judgment of Brands' coaching ability ... Gumby would be proud of that stretch.

And again. Questioning the almighty Gable's judgment of the Brands' coaching ability isn't saying they can't coach. Gable could actually be wrong about how good coaches they are. I'm pretty sure Gable is, in reality, not infallible. Sorry.

 

[nitlion6]

During the Cael run Iowa has missed the trophy presentation once and that year they finished 1 spot out in 5th place because of a lost team point.

The Brands boys have 3 championships and their worst finish since they last won the championship is 5th place. Anyplace other than Iowa that is an exceptional run.

Right now they are stuck behind what Cael and Penn State are doing. As someone mentioned, Ohio State also seems to have a step on the Hawks. For a program that for 35 years was the epicenter of college wrestling being the 3rd best program in your own conference is undoubtedly difficult to deal with.

At no time in the future do I see the TnT tandem catching Penn State, but I hope they continue to believe they can.

 

[El-Jefe]

And again. Questioning the almighty Gable's judgment of the Brands' coaching ability isn't saying they can't coach. Gable could actually be wrong about how good coaches they are. I'm pretty sure Gable is, in reality, not infallible. Sorry.

No you're not, You regularly opine that Brands isn't a good coach. Fine, but sometimes the justifications are strained, none moreso than this one. And let's be clear: nobody's fooled. Questioning Gable's judgment is a transparent justification for that position.

Whatever Gable's faults, I have a sneaking suspicion he knows more about their coaching ability and performance than you or I do. By a wide margin.

But keep on digging that hole.

 

[matter7172]

No you're not, You regularly opine that Brands isn't a good coach. Fine, but sometimes the justifications are strained, none moreso than this one.

Whatever Gable's faults, I have a sneaking suspicion he knows more about their coaching ability and performance than you or I do. By a wide margin.

But keep on digging that hole.

It's like talking to a wall. It's a question of perception vs. reality. Brands is a fine coach, he just may not be as good as perceived by a lot of people. Maybe even Gable. Gable could actually be wrong. And Brands could be part of the reason Iowa is looking more and more like the #4 program in the country. Maybe he is actually something like the fourth best coach in NCAA wrestling, which is nothing shameful. Maybe he's only in the top ten. Still nothing shameful. A lot of people seem to think he is the best coach in NCAA wrestling, which is something that flies in the face of something called results.

I think Ryan is better; Smith is better; Dresser is better; Pop is better; Koll is better. There might be some others. It doesn't mean "Brands can't coach". It just means my opinion is that he is overrated as a coach, sometimes highly so, by a lot of people. I think it's a legitimate to wonder if Brands is successful because he's at Iowa or if Iowa is successful because Brands is there. Zalesky's stint at Iowa is starting to not look so bad in comparison. But, yeah, that 1-15 season in his *second* season at VT sort of really sticks out for an "elite" coach. And I think if he wasn't at Iowa, he wouldn't be nearly as highly regarded - because his results at VT were certainly nothing to write home about.

It's pretty simple. Take Brands out of Iowa and how does he do? Can he succeed somewhere where he doesn't have the built-in advantage of Gable's legacy? That could establish how good a coach he really is. The only glimpse of that is his stint at VT.

 

[Mpchillin]

Yes, most definitely he could be successful anywhere. You forgot to point out that VT had 16 wins in his first year and that 3 guys redshirting during that 1-15 year would go on to be NCAA finalists. Also, Zalesky had finishes of 7th and 8th at the NCAA's so by comparison those results still look bad.

 

[WildTurk]

Yes, most definitely he could be successful anywhere. You forgot to point out that VT had 16 wins in his first year and that 3 guys redshirting during that 1-15 year would go on to be NCAA finalists. Also, Zalesky had finishes of 7th and 8th at the NCAA's so by comparison those results still look bad.

He always forgets that part intentionally. I wouldn't have said anything to him if this wasn't a recurring theme with mr. Matter. We get that matter doesn't like brands at all but that doesn't mean he is not a good coach.

 

[El-Jefe]

These 2 snippets contradict each other:

Zalesky's stint at Iowa is starting to not look so bad in comparison.

It's pretty simple. Take Brands out of Iowa and how does he do? Can he succeed somewhere where he doesn't have the built-in advantage of Gable's legacy?

The only reason Brands got a chance at the built-in advantage of Gable's legacy is because Zalesky failed at it ... which kinda undermines the built-in advantage theory.

Regarding the rest: I agree with you that Smith and Ryan are better coaches. Dresser and Pop, time will tell. Funny enough, nobody feels compelled to verify other coaches' credentials by checking their prior histories. Nobody questions Smith's coaching acumen despite not winning a national title in 10 years. Or Koll's for never winning one despite being the clear favorite in 2011 and not really contending since.

Seriously doubt anyone thinks Brands is the best coach in college wrestling. That's a total straw man.

Whether Brands is the 2nd or 4th or 8th best coach in the country, not sure why that matters so much. If you truly think Brands is a fine coach but perhaps a little overrated, that's not unreasonable. Let's remember that next time you say he should be fired. PS, the wall remembers such things.

 

[minnhawkeye]

It's pretty simple. Take Brands out of Iowa and how does he do? Can he succeed somewhere where he doesn't have the built-in advantage of Gable's legacy? That could establish how good a coach he really is. The only glimpse of that is his stint at VT.
Mr. Matter Brands would and could do ok at any school..Now you will not like this but it is true if Cael had stayed at Iowa State he could not our recurit Brands in Iowa and he could not beat Brands but some of you just can't seem to get that...Cael knew that and he also knew how great the recruiting would be in Pa..simple as that. Cael is a good coach and so is Brands now I can not see Brands getting enough of the studs maybe like Cael can but lets just wait and see ok ..

 

[nitlion6]

It's pretty simple. Take Brands out of Iowa and how does he do? Can he succeed somewhere where he doesn't have the built-in advantage of Gable's legacy? That could establish how good a coach he really is. The only glimpse of that is his stint at VT.
Mr. Matter Brands would and could do ok at any school..Now you will not like this but it is true if Cael had stayed at Iowa State he could not our recurit Brands in Iowa and he could not beat Brands but some of you just can't seem to get that...Cael knew that and he also knew how great the recruiting would be in Pa..simple as that. Cael is a good coach and so is Brands now I can not see Brands getting enough of the studs maybe like Cael can but lets just wait and see ok ..

The whole if Cael had stayed at Iowa State he would never beat Brands is so freaking silly it doesn't even border on the absurd, it takes a giant leap into the land of ridiculous.

In his 3 years at ISU he was already on Iowa's heels with a 2, 5 and 3 team finish. His ISU teams finished ahead of Smith's OSU teams all 3 years in the Big12.
Cael may not have won the recruiting battle in Iowa (for a while anyhow), but with Varner and Taylor he was already recruiting nationally.
I have watched as the staff has improved leaps and bounds in their ability to identify the talent they want, their understanding of training to a peak, their ability to identify fundamentals they build upon and combine those team fundamentals with individual development.
The problem most Hawks have is the inability to understand that this staff recruits better, coaches them up better and they continue to learn and evolve into "even better".

If Iowa State had stepped up and given Cael what he desired to build the program he wanted, Iowa would not be regulated to 3rd best in the Big10. They would however be the second best program in Iowa.

 

[Flying_Tiger]

I always shake my head when someone points to Cael's 3 year stint at ISU as a negative. His results for a green 20 something head coach were outstanding and better then those that immediately preceded him or came after. If ISU stepped up financially back then like they just did with Dresser, there is no doubt in my mind ISU would be contending for championships on a regular basis under Sanderson.

Another thing to remember is that when Cael went to Penn State, this just equaled the playing field with Iowa to a certain extent. Iowa was in the middle of winning 3 championships and considered back to the Gable days while PSU hadn't won a title since 1953 and was coming off a 17th place finish. It's only after all of Cael's success that he supposedly is benefiting from a location advantage. Well that's an advantage that Cael created much like the Gable advantage back in the day. He had a plan in place from day one about training, recruiting and the benefits of a strong RTC and has implemented that plan to near perfection.

 

[matter7172]

Yes, most definitely he could be successful anywhere. You forgot to point out that VT had 16 wins in his first year and that 3 guys redshirting during that 1-15 year would go on to be NCAA finalists. Also, Zalesky had finishes of 7th and 8th at the NCAA's so by comparison those results still look bad.

You would have to agree that the first year VT came in well outside the top 25 at NCAAs (if I recall it was something like 38th and actually did better at 29th iirc the second year), so that "success" would seem to be more a matter of the strength (or weakness) of schedule than anything else. And are we really going to go there with the three redshirting guys? Was it in VT's team's best interests to have them redshirting that year? We'll never know how he would have ultimately done at VT, will we? We can make conjectures - that's it. We do know he left the program in absolute shambles - so much so the school considered dropping wrestling. That's some legacy to leave behind you.

I agree with Flying Tiger and nitlion6, if Cael had stayed at Iowa State, it was just a matter of time until he surpassed Iowa. He was nipping at their heels already, even with the true double recruiting class at Iowa. Thinking that things were always going to stay the same for Cael vis-a-vis Iowa is up there with Cael will never beat Iowa at PSU, Cael will never win B1Gs at PSU, Cael will never win NCAAs at PSU, once Taylor and Ruth graduate, PSU will stop winning, ....

Just wishful thinking.

As far as recruiting goes, Cael is a national recruiter, not just a PA recruiter. I believe he would have been able to do that at Iowa State also.

Should Iowa fire Brands? With whom do you replace him? That's the big question. But if the right opportunity presented itself, I'd think Iowa would have to consider it. Did I really ever say "Fire Brands"? I know I read it on HR but I don't think I ever said it. I did say Iowa might have to consider it, but again - who's the replacement?

 

[Mpchillin]

There's no way to tell how Cael would have done if he continued at ISU so all of these conjectures about ISU nipping on their heels and eventually taking over as the team in Iowa is just wishful thinking as you like to say. It's no different then me saying Iowa is nipping on PSU's heels and will soon overtake them. There's also no telling how Brands would have done at Virginia Tech had he continued. You're basing his ability as a coach on a two-year stint at a college and state that has never been known for wrestling. To me, it's just ridiculous to even have these conversations but yet you continue to do so. You don't like Brands and think that he's a horrible human being, we get it. I'll leave peacefully now.

 

[ZepGraffiti]

It's pretty simple. Take Brands out of Iowa and how does he do? Can he succeed somewhere where he doesn't have the built-in advantage of Gable's legacy? That could establish how good a coach he really is. The only glimpse of that is his stint at VT.
Mr. Matter Brands would and could do ok at any school..Now you will not like this but it is true if Cael had stayed at Iowa State he could not our recurit Brands in Iowa and he could not beat Brands but some of you just can't seem to get that...Cael knew that and he also knew how great the recruiting would be in Pa..simple as that. Cael is a good coach and so is Brands now I can not see Brands getting enough of the studs maybe like Cael can but lets just wait and see ok ..

Agree completely with Nit6 & FT replies.
"Cael ran away from Iowa" is nonsense.

BTW: Weren't his 2nd, 5th, 3rd place finishes as a rookie HC pretty much equivalent to TnT's recent placings? Yet they're unquestionably the best & Cael sucked and couldn't compete? I can't connect those dots, how do you do it?

It wasn't just PA recruiting that lured CS, it was also the commitment by PSU to help build up the best RTC they could. Cael's vision of a straight pipeline from high school-thru-olympic training was made possible. Were just getting started in seeing the whole picture/process come to fruition [and if ISU would've made that commitment, then Cael stays there & the 'scums' from PSU remain anonymous to the Hawk fans].

 

[PSUisawesome]

Brands good
Smith great
Ryan good
Cael-Cody-Casey making History and everybody knows it.

 

[Pennstate1985]

You can add Koll, Bryan Smith, and Dresser to the list as coaches that have proven themselves to be top flight. Some more than others, but the point is that there are 6-8 coaches imo that can win a title based on their coaching ability in the room and with the right recruits. Some coaches are great recruiters but simply good coaches. Others are great coaches and good recruiters. My belief is that Cael is both a great recruiter and great coach and that is what separates him from the rest.

I will also add that Cael developed a strategic plan for the wrestling team/RTC coming in and sold it to PSU, who has funded it. The plan has then been executed flawlessly. Because without a plan and admin support, good to great coaching can only carry you for so long before you start retrograding as other programs aren't standing still.

 

[matter7172]

There's also no telling how Brands would have done at Virginia Tech had he continued. You're basing his ability as a coach on a two-year stint at a college and state that has never been known for wrestling

But that is the only data we have to see how he would do outside the much-advantaged situation at Iowa. Then we have Iowa, where he has won as many championships as Zalesky in more years than Zalesky won his three. Where is the data showing how great a coach he is other than the three years with the true double recruiting class? If you take those away, in something like ten years he has won a share of one B1G title and zero NCAA titles and has as many individual champs as PSU had *last year*. Where are the achievements to consider him one of the top coaches? They just don't exist outside that three year exception. We are left with a lot of opinions with no facts behind them.

 

[Pennstate1985]

But that is the only data we have to see how he would do outside the much-advantaged situation at Iowa. Then we have Iowa, where he has won as many championships as Zalesky in more years than Zalesky won his three. Where is the data showing how great a coach he is other than the three years with the true double recruiting class? If you take those away, in something like ten years he has won a share of one B1G title and zero NCAA titles and has as many individual champs as PSU had *last year*. Where are the achievements to consider him one of the top coaches? They just don't exist outside that three year exception. We are left with a lot of opinions with no facts behind them.

Any coach that is consistently top 3 and annually top 5 is a great coach. Can that even be argued otherwise? Doesn't mean you think he's the best or even 5th best, but can it actually be argued that you aren't a great coach if you can achieve those results?

 

[RoarLions1]

...transferring within the Big10 would cost him his last year of eligibility...!!!
....a no-brainer...

Like it did for Micic?

Even InterMat reported a season lost to the transfer. Add this to the more publicized quarterback (Rudock) transfer, also to Michigan, and the new B1G conference transfer rules, effective 2011-12, are confusing. I suspect an appeal was made in both cases...though the reason these appeals caused a rule-reversal isn't clear.

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/14723

 

[minnhawkeye]

Even InterMat reported a season lost to the transfer. Add this to the more publicized quarterback (Rudock) transfer, also to Michigan, and the new B1G conference transfer rules, effective 2011-12, are confusing. I suspect an appeal was made in both cases...though the reason these appeals caused a rule-reversal isn't clear.

https://intermatwrestle.com/articles/14723

Only way he could transfer and be able to wrestle would be if he does graduate this year and then goes some place and applies for grad school..He will stay at Illinois and finish his time there.

 

[RoarLions1]

Only way he could transfer and be able to wrestle would be if he does graduate this year and then goes some place and applies for grad school..He will stay at Illinois and finish his time there.

Agree with your last statement, though not your other...at least not for the Big Ten. Read below...seems, regardless of student status (undergrad, or grad), the only way for an exception is to get a full release.

http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebas.../58173/big-ten-makes-changes-to-transfer-rule

 

[LemonPie]

Agree with your last statement, though not your other...at least not for the Big Ten. Read below...seems, regardless of student status (undergrad, or grad), the only way for an exception is to get a full release.

http://www.espn.com/blog/collegebas.../58173/big-ten-makes-changes-to-transfer-rule

I believe you're wrong on this one. Grad transfers are free to go anywhere. All it takes is finding a graduate field of study that isn't offered at your current school. Pretty easy to do.

 

[LemonPie]

Btw, Micic was granted an Olympic redshirt

 

[RoarLions1]

I believe you're wrong on this one. Grad transfers are free to go anywhere. All it takes is finding a graduate field of study that isn't offered at your current school. Pretty easy to do.

Might be...just pointing out the Big Ten has it's own set of rules, and no one has access to them (B1G Rulebook, etc.). We even have differing opinions on here, looking at several threads of related topics. I took the ESPN article literally, which says a student-athlete needs a release to be considered...didn't say anything about a student's status. All I'd like is to see it in black and white.

I know all about the NCAA grad student transfer fiasco, and their desire to block transfers with new language...though it appears right now they are on the losing side of that one.

 

[Pennstate1985]

I know all about the NCAA grad student transfer fiasco, and their desire to block transfers with new language...though it appears right now they are on the losing side of that one.

As they should be. If the NCAA was all about academics and student athletes, they'd be praising and supporting any athlete good enough to get a degree on time or earlier. They are a morally bankrupt organization in my view, and it's all about money and power.