Maybe it's because my high school team was terrible, but I never have been a fan of dual tournaments. Wrestling is an individual sport and to force a "team" concept onto it has never made much sense to me. Now we have high school coaches using every little technical violation to gain any advantage. i'm not sure where the push for dual "championships" came from, but I assume some think it is a more fan friendly way to determine a team title. These are now becoming a place where poor sportsmanship is celebrated and defended as though it's legitimate strategy. Does all of this make our sport more appealing to either hard core fans or casual fans?? I doubt either group likes the antics they have witnessed recently.
Dual Tournaments???
- Thread starter gtown mike
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I think these are two completely different discussions... But that's just my opinion.
Personally, I like the dual tournament idea... On paper. Duals have a completely different dynamic you don't get in the individual tournament... And I'd bet my house that nearly every wrestler out there feels they are part of a "team". If they could figure out how to do both, I'm all for it. That said, I would never want to see the individual tournament take a back seat to a dual tournament. If I can only have one, I'll take the individual tournament, hands down. I tell people when they argue with me about this, "if you've never been to nationals, you don't get a vote."
Personally, I like the dual tournament idea... On paper. Duals have a completely different dynamic you don't get in the individual tournament... And I'd bet my house that nearly every wrestler out there feels they are part of a "team". If they could figure out how to do both, I'm all for it. That said, I would never want to see the individual tournament take a back seat to a dual tournament. If I can only have one, I'll take the individual tournament, hands down. I tell people when they argue with me about this, "if you've never been to nationals, you don't get a vote."
speaking from the PIAA perspective I love them and wish we had started them years and years ago as D4, 6, 11 had just some absolute great teams not just individuals that scored well as a "team". These "team" tournaments are so fun to coach in and be a spectator at because of the strategy and the matchups that play such a pivotal part in them. In college you dont see this other than at Mizzou right now with guys moving around, but if a true dual team tournament was to be pushed I think the college matches would follow a similar trajectory to the what we see at the HS level and the fans would be rewarded for it. It would grow the sport. This is why I personally like this current model for the NWCA tournament. Its not perfect, but I would like to hear what the on-line hits were for yesterday for the NC State match vs a regular NC state dual are. Cael, Smith and Brands are on to something, if the powers at and riding shotgun with the NWCA dont let pride get in the way. This model isnt perfect but its a start and if allowed to grow and tweaked a little could really blossom in my mind.
Back to the PIAA kids, many of whom participate with their team at dual "states" will never sniff individual states and this is their chance. To see a JV kid or even a good but not great wrestler wide eyed as they walk into the giant center, it makes all the hard work worth while. The comradery, and the memories, isnt this what its all about...to me it is.
Thanks for responding dunk. I was hoping to get viewpoints on both sides. While I don't share your take on dual tournaments, I applaud your enthusiasm towards them. THAT does count for something, since it is this enthusiasm that helps our sport.
In HS, we "dual'ed" a few other Track Programs. I am unsure on the others.
For Wrestling, I am in favor of both. Don't even think about taking away the tourney, but I like the idea similar to Dual State here in Oklahoma. It seems that the fans get more "up" for Dual State than they do the tourney. The last two years, a local team has entered Dual State with tons of social media interaction and a huge following to the event which has promoted a great amount of growth for the Little Leagues here. There seems to be more drama and excitement to a dual meet, whereas a Wrestling fan that isn't as knowledgeable can still enjoy the competition. It also gives kids a chance that have no chance at dancing individually to compete on a big stage and hopefully light a fire for them to improve to do it individually.
I am totally against how it is set up this year, but I guess it will have to do? The set-up this year is extremely beneficial to the Big10 in terms of money. IMO, it should be an annual centralized event where the placements determine the money with equal ticket allocation.
Many have agreed with the coaches who are not fond of the Dual Championships because they are too close to the conference and NCAA tournaments. I recall "back in the day" The Virginia and later the Cliff Keene Duals were held over the holiday break and got most of the top teams. Now there are three/four early/mid season open tournaments that have established themselves. I would like to see the duals rotate among these venues during the holiday season withe those not hosting the event being the go to places for those not in the National Duals. Much like todays football set up where the major Bowls (Sugar, Rose, Orange and Fiesta) hosting the Championship game.
Until they agree to have the duals earlier in the season, I don't see them ever being of any significance. I would also point out that many people take off over the holidays and might be more willing to travel (maybe not to Evanston
). Rotating the event would also allow spectators from across the US have an opportunity to witness top level competition and do what every one is pushing (growing the sport)!
Until they agree to have the duals earlier in the season, I don't see them ever being of any significance. I would also point out that many people take off over the holidays and might be more willing to travel (maybe not to Evanston
). Rotating the event would also allow spectators from across the US have an opportunity to witness top level competition and do what every one is pushing (growing the sport)!...if the NCAAChampionship were a dual concept with top 4 teams you would be lucky to get 4,000 fans...just the fans of the teams involved...
...sorry, if Penn State were not in it I would have zero interest...
...additionally , as presently formulated the fans get to see the Top 32 kids At Every Weight wrestling in one venue...and at their optimum weight - with no juggling...
...but thas jes my opinion...
...sorry, if Penn State were not in it I would have zero interest...
...additionally , as presently formulated the fans get to see the Top 32 kids At Every Weight wrestling in one venue...and at their optimum weight - with no juggling...
...but thas jes my opinion...
...Penn State does a very good job in helping to "grow" wrestling - traveling to such places as Cal St., Stanford and Utah and attracting record crowds nearby at Rider, Rutgers and Lehigh...
...everybody loves a winner...
...everybody loves a winner...
Actually, I think that the individual tournament provides for better growth of the sport than team dual tournament. It allows for a smaller program like Edinboro to make some noise at nationals with a handful of strong wrestlers when they don't have the depth to be a contender in a dual format. Only the big boys will be able to contend for a dual title. It also allows weaker programs like a Duke or North Dakota State to grow by building on the recognition of their one or two All-Americans at nationals. I also would like to see the DII & DIII champs be invited to the DI tourney again.
I also think that having two championships, you are drawing from the fan commitment well once too often.
I also think that having two championships, you are drawing from the fan commitment well once too often.
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