Enrollment challenges at PA State Colleges

[Bloomnit]

These schools always served a great purpose. today, not so much. You have to have the best 'name school' on your resume. If that isn't Harvard/Yale/Princeton, you hope that it is ND/NW/Michigan/BC. If not those, its PSU/tOSU/MSU. Failing all that, it is Edinboro/Cal(PA)/IndianaPA. It cost about $25k per year to go to Edinboro, $36k to go to PSU. The name "PSU" means so much more than Edinboro. So what do you do? You get a readily available student loan and graduate with a big debt.

Not sure this is true, certainly not as a blanket statement. In certain fields, sure, there might be strands of this sort of thinking (engineering, etc), but it has a lot more to do with the industry. I worked for a major Fortune 500 company in my previous job/department, and we had graduates from Kutztown, Misercorida, Lehigh, Cornell, PSU and Rowan as direct reports. The biggest distinguishing factor in success seemed to be how much/where they had gotten internship experience and what level of technical skill they possessed. The core knowledge set wasn't fundamentally different between the lot of them, though the two from Lehigh and PSU did seem to come in with better internship experience.

The other core issue that these schools have is they have such a limited program offering, they lose a lot of students to attrition and transfer which drives down their grad rates. There doesn't need to be near the level of program overlap between these institutions. One of my grad degrees was at Bloomsburg, and when I was there, they were losing bio majors like crazy to CC's and branch campuses because students could do the program faster and with less debt. They were smart enough to re-work the program and begin offering Allied Health Sciences to stop the bleeding. It worked, but there's too much of this continually happening at PSAC schools.

The other big hang-up is APSCUF. They are the biggest group of hypocrites in the entire world. They are essentially a cartel holding the state system hostage. Students/Administrator/Staff are continually paying a bigger portion of the burden for insurance, facilities and other expenses whereas the Faculty Union is exempt. And every couple years they go on strike and sell the students on some sob story to save the teachers, but in reality they just want to shift the fiscal responsibility onto everyone else. The "I would gladly pay more for so and so" crowd never seems to want to pay more.

 

[Cletus11]

Not sure this is true, certainly not as a blanket statement. In certain fields, sure, there might be strands of this sort of thinking (engineering, etc), but it has a lot more to do with the industry. I worked for a major Fortune 500 company in my previous job/department, and we had graduates from Kutztown, Misercorida, Lehigh, Cornell, PSU and Rowan as direct reports. The biggest distinguishing factor in success seemed to be how much/where they had gotten internship experience and what level of technical skill they possessed. The core knowledge set wasn't fundamentally different between the lot of them, though the two from Lehigh and PSU did seem to come in with better internship experience.

I would say the better 'image' and well known the university on your degree, the better chance at landing a better job out of college. Harvard grads land better jobs when they graduate then those from HACC. Now once out into the workforce for a few years, degrees mean about nothing except if from an Ivy League school and if it is in the medical, law, or on Wall Street (those are the unique professions that the name of the degree does mean something for longer than a few years). But once graduated and into the workforce for a few years, it is about what you did when at your job and nobody cares about the degree anymore in most cases. That being said, the better entry level job you get, the more easy to advance and move to better jobs.

 

[uhlerlion]

I've thought for a while that Penn State may roll some of them into their system as branch campuses. Slippery Rock for instance has a DPT program that Penn State doesn't have, but has been rumored on starting. I could see different colleges emphasizing certain area, like Slippery Rock could be a center for healthcare, with physical therapy, nursing, etc in western PA. I don't know enough about the schools to state what other schools could specialize in.

I believe PSU Abington has a DPT program share with Thomas Jefferson

https://abington.psu.edu/health-professions-partnerships

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

That's actually inaccurate. Elementary Ed at Kutztown is offered as either Pre-K - Grade 4, or Grades 4-8. And unlike just a decade ago, PA colleges are not graduating 4-5X as many individuals with teaching certificates as there are needs. Students (and their parents) reacted to the glut of teacher graduates that could not get jobs, and the numbers of students graduating from Kutztown, and all other PA colleges, with education degrees is way down. In parallel, a large number of baby boomers in teaching have been reaching retirement age in recent years, so that there is a pretty much a balance right now between graduates and openings.

That doesn't mean that every graduate gets hired as a new teacher. There are shortages of teachers applying for jobs in rural PA areas, and large urban area, and a surplus of applicants in suburban areas.

And FWIW, at Kutztown Elementary Education majors make up a very small percentage of recent graduates.

As to student debt, it's pretty difficult to amass $100k in student loan debt from Kutztown. If you had started this fall semester, and were a PA resident, tuition, room & board, and fees would cost $10,880 per semester. About the only way to amass $100k in student loan debt from Kutztown would be to change majors in your junior or senior year, and take 5-6 years to complete your degree.

I’ll add that if you’re willing to move, education majors from some of those state schools are very highly sought after. The large districts in metro DC for example (Fairfax, Loudoun, Prince William, Falls Church to name a few) recruit a lot of teachers out of schools like Slippery Rock, IUP, Cal, Kutztown, Edinboro, and West Chester. I’ve done multiple stints in Loudoun County over my career, and met quite a few colleagues who attended one of the PA universities. Several administrators I know have told me that they recruit the PASSHE schools so heavily because they have a long reputation for turning out highly skilled teachers.

Also, while the teaching profession does not rival other fields in terms of compensation, many of the above DC metro districts top out in 6 figure salaries, which makes an education major a worthwhile degree.

 

[Carmichaels_Lion]

I’ll add that if you’re willing to move, education majors from some of those state schools are very highly sought after. The large districts in metro DC for example (Fairfax, Loudoun, Prince William, Falls Church to name a few) recruit a lot of teachers out of schools like Slippery Rock, IUP, Cal, Kutztown, Edinboro, and West Chester. I’ve done multiple stints in Loudoun County over my career, and met quite a few colleagues who attended one of the PA universities. Several administrators I know have told me that they recruit the PASSHE schools so heavily because they have a long reputation for turning out highly skilled teachers.

Also, while the teaching profession does not rival other fields in terms of compensation, many of the above DC metro districts top out in 6 figure salaries, which makes an education major a worthwhile degree.

I have been in 2 systems and 3 total buildings in 20 years in the DC area. In the first building I was in, the guy next door went to Slippery Rock. He was from Turtle Creek. The second building the guy across the hall was from Ambridge and went to Edinboro. Where I have been for the last 16, the guy next to me was a fellow Harvard Mon River graduate from Brownsville. Each of those gentlemen were old enough to be my father. I became friends with each of them because of the Western PA connection. I always enjoyed Mondays after Steelers games and anytime we would bulls&$t about “back home”. More recently I can count at least 20 + people in my building alone that are from some corner of PA. We just hired a guy from Anne Arundel county, it turns out we played against each other in high school sports. He is from Avella and went to Slippery Rock. I think this trend says a lot more about Western PA. The one thing in common any conversation turned up was how none of them truly wanted to leave Western PA, rather everyone HAD to leave.

 

[Mr. Chim]

W

The PA State System of Higher Education released enrollment figures for the PA State Colleges. You can find articles in papers today throughout the Commonwealth that report on the info.

I'll just review the numbers, and the percent change from the fall of 2017.

1. Bloomsburg - 8,924 (-3.9%)
2. California - 7,312 (-6.1%)
3. Cheyney - 469 (-37.9%)
4. Clarion - 4,869 (-6.8%)
5. East Stroudsburg - 6,425 (-4.7%)
6. Edinboro - 4,834 (-13.3%)
7. Indiana - 11,325 (-8.0%)
8. Kutztown - 8,309 (-0.2%)
9. Lock Haven - 3,425 (-10.5%)
10. Mansfield - 1,637 (-13.7%)
11. Millersville - 7,781 (+0.4%)
12. Shippensburg - 6,408 (-2.6%)
13. Slipper Rock - 8,824 (-0.8%)
14. West Chester - 17,552 (+1.2%)

"Many of our universities continue to be challenged by the state's changing demographics, especially in Western Pennsylvania, which has seen a significant decline in the number of high school graduates in recent years," said system spokesman Kenn Marshall. "That trend is expected to continue."

The system's total enrollment peaked around 120,000 in 2010. This year the total fell below 100,000 -- the first time it was below that threshold since 2001.

West Chester the GOAT chugging right along and carrying the entire PSAC.

 

[hawkifann]

Is Penn St Schuylkill still around? I covered that back in the day.

 

[junior1]

I’ll add that if you’re willing to move, education majors from some of those state schools are very highly sought after. The large districts in metro DC for example (Fairfax, Loudoun, Prince William, Falls Church to name a few) recruit a lot of teachers out of schools like Slippery Rock, IUP, Cal, Kutztown, Edinboro, and West Chester. I’ve done multiple stints in Loudoun County over my career, and met quite a few colleagues who attended one of the PA universities. Several administrators I know have told me that they recruit the PASSHE schools so heavily because they have a long reputation for turning out highly skilled teachers.

Also, while the teaching profession does not rival other fields in terms of compensation, many of the above DC metro districts top out in 6 figure salaries, which makes an education major a worthwhile degree.

Don't limit your thoughts to salary...look at total compensation. In many, if not most, venues, teachers get way below competition when it comes to healthcare (in State College for example teachers pay $55 month per entire family for 100% coverage), and don't forget pensions. Federal/state employees are one of the few places where employees have some form of defined benefit pension plans. And of course you only work for 10 months a year. If the median income for a family of 4 is $61,000, teachers don't make out as poorly as most believe. Of course, location and supply/demand always influence everything about employment.

 

[diontechristmas]

Don't limit your thoughts to salary...look at total compensation. In many, if not most, venues, teachers get way below competition when it comes to healthcare (in State College for example teachers pay $55 month per entire family for 100% coverage), and don't forget pensions. Federal/state employees are one of the few places where employees have some form of defined benefit pension plans. And of course you only work for 10 months a year. If the median income for a family of 4 is $61,000, teachers don't make out as poorly as most believe. Of course, location and supply/demand always influence everything about employment.

I’m in the industry, and speak with school admins from different states every day. It’s very simple really.. states that pay poorly and have done away with pensions have a very difficult time finding teachers. States that offer good pay and pensions fill openings in a matter of days.

Here is SEPA burbs, teaching positions are fought over. Fully certified teachers work as a sub or accociate for a few years in many cases as their in at a particular district. Pay usually starts around 55k and tops out around 100k, with great pension and benefits. It’s a really good gig around here.

Then look at Virginia. Pay starts around 40, tops out in the high 60’s/low 70’s, and VA teachers no longer have a pension. Many school districts would hire dozens or hundred of additional teachers if they could find people who will take the jobs. I attended a talk about this subject by the state Supe. His conclusion was that VA has a major problem attracting teachers due to low pay and benefits. We put a band aid over the problem for years by hiring the over abundance of education majors from PA. He says even that pipeline is pretty much stopped as PA colleges are producing far fewer teachers.

 

[wilbury]

I've thought for a while that Penn State may roll some of them into their system as branch campuses. Slippery Rock for instance has a DPT program that Penn State doesn't have, but has been rumored on starting. I could see different colleges emphasizing certain area, like Slippery Rock could be a center for healthcare, with physical therapy, nursing, etc in western PA. I don't know enough about the schools to state what other schools could specialize in.

except for the fact that PSU has many branch campuses with empty dorms themselves.

 

[kgilbert78]

I have been in 2 systems and 3 total buildings in 20 years in the DC area. In the first building I was in, the guy next door went to Slippery Rock. He was from Turtle Creek. The second building the guy across the hall was from Ambridge and went to Edinboro. Where I have been for the last 16, the guy next to me was a fellow Harvard Mon River graduate from Brownsville. Each of those gentlemen were old enough to be my father. I became friends with each of them because of the Western PA connection. I always enjoyed Mondays after Steelers games and anytime we would bulls&$t about “back home”. More recently I can count at least 20 + people in my building alone that are from some corner of PA. We just hired a guy from Anne Arundel county, it turns out we played against each other in high school sports. He is from Avella and went to Slippery Rock. I think this trend says a lot more about Western PA. The one thing in common any conversation turned up was how none of them truly wanted to leave Western PA, rather everyone HAD to leave.

In my office in Columbus, the gal in the office next to me is from Clearfield (Thiel grad) and one of my old bosses (just retired) is from Clarion. I have a PSU Ph.D. three offices down. Some of that was due to the fact that my office was once in PA in the 1970s and the boss at the time liked to hire PA folks (some of whom moved here when the office moved)--my original trainer back then went to Albright.

 

[PS4814]

We put a band aid over the problem for years by hiring the over abundance of education majors from PA. He says even that pipeline is pretty much stopped as PA colleges are producing far fewer teachers.

I can also chime in on fewer teachers coming out of college. Speaking with a college rep the internship class of teachers from a specific PA state school in a specific subject used to be in the 30-40 range. As of a year or two ago that number had dropped to 6.

The demonization of teachers by society for apparently being greedy and worthless human beings has been heard loud and clear and as a result no one wants to go into the profession any longer. Congrats America - the future is bright.

 

[Woodpecker]

 

[diontechristmas]

I can also chime in on fewer teachers coming out of college. Speaking with a college rep the internship class of teachers from a specific PA state school in a specific subject used to be in the 30-40 range. As of a year or two ago that number had dropped to 6.

The demonization of teachers by society for apparently being greedy and worthless human beings has been heard loud and clear and as a result no one wants to go into the profession any longer. Congrats America - the future is bright.

Very true. In the same presentation the state supe of Virginia noted the small number of education majors produced by the VA state universities. I don’t recall the actual numbers, but they were graduating only like 3,000 teachers per year and had an estimated 5,000 yearly teacher openings across the state.

School officials and state department of ed’s are very aware of the problem, but turning the tide will take years. They have in increase salaries and benefits (good luck getting people to pay higher taxes) and improve the reputation of the job. Many states will have serious teacher shortages in the next 20 years.

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

I’ve worked in NoVA, SEPA, and in RI, and hands down the best compensation package for public educators was PA. That said, the larger county districts in VA were competitive (again, metro DC has much more public $ to play with than the rest of the state), but the PA pension is still one of the standard bearers in the field.

 

[Delco Lion]

I’ve worked in NoVA, SEPA, and in RI, and hands down the best compensation package for public educators was PA. That said, the larger county districts in VA were competitive (again, metro DC has much more public $ to play with than the rest of the state), but the PA pension is still one of the standard bearers in the field.

The PA pension went away 1-2 years ago for new hires.

 

[Player2BNamedL8r]

The PA pension went away 1-2 years ago for new hires.

Was not aware of that...makes sense considering it was 2 & a half years ago that I left the Commonwealth.

 

[PS4814]

The PA pension went away 1-2 years ago for new hires.

Not entirely accurate, still a pension but also a 401k plan - http://www.poconorecord.com/news/20170613/pa-pension-formula-changes-for-new-teachers-state-workers

New teachers and state workers will no longer get a traditional pension in Pennsylvania after Gov. Tom Wolf signed a bill Monday that made it the ninth state to adopt a “hybrid” retirement plan. It goes into effect in 2019.
The new plan combines elements of a traditional pension and a 401(k)-style account.
Overall, new workers will contribute more of their salary, work longer and likely receive a smaller payout in retirement than under the current system, according to a report from the state’s Independent Fiscal Office.

Under the default, workers will have to contribute a total of 8.25 percent of their salary. (Teachers currently contribute 7.5 percent and other public workers pay 6.25 percent.) Most will have to work until age 67, instead of 65, in order to get the full payout in retirement.

 

[Carmichaels_Lion]

I can also chime in on fewer teachers coming out of college. Speaking with a college rep the internship class of teachers from a specific PA state school in a specific subject used to be in the 30-40 range. As of a year or two ago that number had dropped to 6.

The demonization of teachers by society for apparently being greedy and worthless human beings has been heard loud and clear and as a result no one wants to go into the profession any longer. Congrats America - the future is bright.

To go along my with this, right or wrong. I have been telling my three sons that I will not contribute one nickel to their college bill if they decide to go into education like I did. I have been pounding it into their head since they were little. The oldest one is starting high school next year. All three talk about things like: Navy Officer, Engineering, Finance and starting a business (they have no idea what business when I ask). I have not heard “teacher” come from their mouth one time. I like to think my strategy might have had an effect. Time will tell.

 

[sammyk]

Said the same to my son he is at UNC Chapel Hill in the business program. If any of my kids were to choose education as a major I would not pay for that no way no how and I am a math teacher

 

[mahatango1]

My friends son decided to do union work instead of college. I can’t blame him. 18 years old. He will make over $60,000
To start, and have zero debt.
He Is smart kid, just decided college wasn’t worth it

 

[anon_xdc8rmuek44eq]

My friends son decided to do union work instead of college. I can’t blame him. 18 years old. He will make over $60,000
To start, and have zero debt.
He Is smart kid, just decided college wasn’t worth it

Different for everyone. By contrast, my colleague’s daughter (mom and dad have advanced engineering degrees from Penn State) will get her engineering degree from Purdue this spring and has a six figure offer from a major energy company on the table.

 

[mahatango1]

Different for everyone. By contrast, my colleague’s daughter (mom and dad have advanced engineering degrees from Penn State) will get her engineering degree from Purdue this spring and has a six figure offer from a major energy company on the table.

True there for sure. He was considering being a teacher. My wife is a teacher, I know what she makes after 20 years. Ha.

 

[retsio]

That's actually inaccurate. Elementary Ed at Kutztown is offered as either Pre-K - Grade 4, or Grades 4-8. And unlike just a decade ago, PA colleges are not graduating 4-5X as many individuals with teaching certificates as there are needs. Students (and their parents) reacted to the glut of teacher graduates that could not get jobs, and the numbers of students graduating from Kutztown, and all other PA colleges, with education degrees is way down. In parallel, a large number of baby boomers in teaching have been reaching retirement age in recent years, so that there is a pretty much a balance right now between graduates and openings.

That doesn't mean that every graduate gets hired as a new teacher. There are shortages of teachers applying for jobs in rural PA areas, and large urban area, and a surplus of applicants in suburban areas.

And FWIW, at Kutztown Elementary Education majors make up a very small percentage of recent graduates.

Before we were here, history can tell us a different story...….
In the beginning, each 'Commonwealth College' was known as a 'Teacher's College'. PA with an increasing population needed teachers for the number of new schools being built and high school seniors needing a place to 'go to college'. West Chester and all others were the property of the Legislature and never needed any changes. Both of my parents went to East Stroudsburg State Teachers College in the late '30's. My father served a 40 career in Education as a teacher and 24 years as a Principal at Abington.

After WWII a name change was proposed deleting 'Teacher's' and implemented. While Penn State College languished under Legislative control and did not become a university until 1954/55.

In 1964, Dr. Paul Althouse, Exec VP proposed to the State Legislature that Penn State would take over all of the Commonwealth campuses (ala Univ. Of California) and not have to build from the ground up new Penn State local or regional campuses -- Harrisburg, etc -- and not have duplication of educational opportunities and greater expense as colleges competed for students. The Legislature said 'Penn State would get to big'.

You guessed it -- the Legislature wanted 'control' and said NO. Penn State had to build new campuses, buildings and employ additional profs, libraries, dorms and everything else to serve students at Abington, Berks, Schuylkill and many others. If every Commonwealth College goes out of business today or tomorrow, all of the real estate will have zero value for the Legislature.

Expenses at Penn State could have been less for a long time -- and the politicians could care less.

In the end Pennsylvania would have been better served by Penn State Kutztown, Penn State West Chester -- maybe Div. 2 or 3, but a better structure for college education.

 

[JayWye]

The PA State System of Higher Education released enrollment figures for the PA State Colleges. You can find articles in papers today throughout the Commonwealth that report on the info.

I'll just review the numbers, and the percent change from the fall of 2017.

1. Bloomsburg - 8,924 (-3.9%)
2. California - 7,312 (-6.1%)
3. Cheyney - 469 (-37.9%)
4. Clarion - 4,869 (-6.8%)
5. East Stroudsburg - 6,425 (-4.7%)
6. Edinboro - 4,834 (-13.3%)
7. Indiana - 11,325 (-8.0%)
8. Kutztown - 8,309 (-0.2%)
9. Lock Haven - 3,425 (-10.5%)
10. Mansfield - 1,637 (-13.7%)
11. Millersville - 7,781 (+0.4%)
12. Shippensburg - 6,408 (-2.6%)
13. Slipper Rock - 8,824 (-0.8%)
14. West Chester - 17,552 (+1.2%)

"Many of our universities continue to be challenged by the state's changing demographics, especially in Western Pennsylvania, which has seen a significant decline in the number of high school graduates in recent years," said system spokesman Kenn Marshall. "That trend is expected to continue."

The system's total enrollment peaked around 120,000 in 2010. This year the total fell below 100,000 -- the first time it was below that threshold since 2001.

These were teachers colleges which, at the insistence of their respective state senators/representatives, were made "universities" back in the day. Pennsylvania simply doesn't need, nor can afford, this many "universities"...esp in addition to Penn State's regional campuses. Change their missions to emphasize vocational ed and scale them back in the process. Of course there will be howls from the current generation of state senators/representatives (see DoD base closures), but at some point rationality has to prevail.

 

[bison13]

To go along my with this, right or wrong. I have been telling my three sons that I will not contribute one nickel to their college bill if they decide to go into education like I did. I have been pounding it into their head since they were little. The oldest one is starting high school next year. All three talk about things like: Navy Officer, Engineering, Finance and starting a business (they have no idea what business when I ask). I have not heard “teacher” come from their mouth one time. I like to think my strategy might have had an effect. Time will tell.

While I would prefer to not have my kids go in to the field of education, if that is what they want, then I would support them. I would definitely make sure that they got in to the right school system and school for their job though. No way would they do something in Baltimore City or PG county. AS mentioned above, some of the Northern VA and Montgomery Co MD can top out over 100K, so it's not all bad.

 

[Uh Clem]

Many of the comments have been about teaching and the compensation in different states, but in addition to changing demographics one cannot ignore the high cost of student debt v the anticipated payback in a career. My own daughter has an engineering degree (no loans) but makes low six figures in NYC four years out of school. She hopes to go for an MBA and borrow the $150 or so that it will cost. But she's only willing to do that if she gets into a top 20 program as she is unwilling to borrow without the guaranteed payback at the end of it. I don't think she is unique, in that most college kids would benefit by looking at college with a cost/benefit eye toward a positive payback.

 

[ivan brunetti]

I can't see how brick and mortar schools will survive long term- or why they should

Most will close eventually. The ones that remain will serve wealthier families. Higher education is very much over priced. States could offer on-line courses essentially for free.

 

[Cosmos]

Sad I got my education at one of the schools(Cal U) and I thought that they did a great job in preparing me and I was pleased with the education I received. Also in the 1990's the price was pretty good. But the truth in Western PA is a changing demographic that are killing the area, young people are moving away like myself I have lived in North Carolina for over 20 years and instead of my son or daughter attending one of these schools they are going to the UNC schools (UNC Greensboro and UNC Chapel Hill) where it is very cheap and the education is great,. I think you would hear the same story from many people on this board

Mine is a similar experience only much earlier (late 70s). Joined the military and never returned. The problem is sooner than later we're going to run out of places to which to move, like NC. Not unless you're so inclined to learn Mandarin and live under authoritarian rule. Only then will we experience real human rights abuses. You no like? Just keeping it real.

 

[bison13]

Many of the comments have been about teaching and the compensation in different states, but in addition to changing demographics one cannot ignore the high cost of student debt v the anticipated payback in a career. My own daughter has an engineering degree (no loans) but makes low six figures in NYC four years out of school. She hopes to go for an MBA and borrow the $150 or so that it will cost. But she's only willing to do that if she gets into a top 20 program as she is unwilling to borrow without the guaranteed payback at the end of it. I don't think she is unique, in that most college kids would benefit by looking at college with a cost/benefit eye toward a positive payback.

As Carmichaels said before about all of the teachers from PA schools working with him and myself in MD and VA it would seem that as long as the child picked the most cost effective school, got the grades and good references, they should be able to get a decent job down here.

Somuch as I love PSU I highly doubt that if my kids want to get in to education I would send them there. like Clem said, its not the best when it comes to cost /benefit

 

[Cletus11]

Teaching is a perfect job for a woman who wants to have a family and spend ample time with her kids and yet still wants a second income for said family. It is not a profession one should go into with the idea of becoming rich.

But if you look at total compensation of a teacher (pay plus benefits) versus what the private sector has to pay for benefits and for a private sector employee to be able to have a $1,400,0000 dollars saved in a 401K (which is about the average amount paid out in pension and medical benefits a teacher will get if retiring at 65 and living into mid 80's) upon retirement and take that amount into account, the average hourly pay of a teacher is off the charts.

 

[jrs1024]

I actually have a lot of experience working with PASSHE. Right now they’re struggling from over supply. The reality is that only a handful of the universities are sustainable. West Chester is clearly the outlier because of its location both from a town of west Chester standpoint (it’s a real college town) but also because of the population base it can draw from by being that close to Philadelphia. Not to mention they’re still cheaper than in state tuition for Rutgers or UDel.

Why doesn’t Cheney work? Too many options around the area and many of the students can get scholarships to more prestigious schools.

 

[LMTLION]

With the exception of the SE quadrant of Philly, Lehigh Valley, Harrisburg, Lancaster, much of PA is in a longterm population decline. Many of the listed schools should be consolidated.