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fair Cael vs Gable assessment?

Folks oftentimes underestimate the advantage a team gains in adding just one superstud to it. If it adds a Zain, Nolf, Nickal type character we are oftentimes talking 12 point swings in a dual meet. At NCAA’s the additional scoring is amplified even more. Until we give Cael the extra scholarships that Gable had (and was cited for), its an apples to oranges comparison.
 
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PrairieHawk24 said:
Cael lost last years BigTen Championship... Gable never did.

Case closed
Click to expand...
I gotta admit, that loss kept me up for days. It felt like life had ended, and everything that I knew to be true was now false. The B1G Championship is THE pinnacle of our sport, and we lost. I was in a pit of despair, the likes of which few ever climb out from. I sought out a hypnotist to help me get over it, but nothing was working. My work suffered. My relationships suffered. The end was upon me, and I even started drafting a you-know-what. I stopped showering. I stopped eating. That went on for about two weeks, and just as my life was ebbing away, a miracle happened... AGAIN

13200179.jpeg
 
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7brwnpsu said:
Didn't the team also beat Iowa last year?
I'll try to look it up!
Click to expand...
The only year Iowa doesn't lose to Penn State anymore is when the Big10 doesn't make Iowa wrestle Penn State. It is a shame Tom refuses to wrestle Penn State in those off years.
 
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Don't let one Iowa fan (PrairieHawk24) take this down a rabbit hole. Great discussion when we keep it out of the gutter.

My contribution...
(1) Gable and Cael are/were both great coaches. Gable changed the game (yes, I called it a game), and the landscape in his time by doing something different than everyone else. Hard-nosed, offensive-minded, dominate-your-opponent wrestling, by training harder and improving technique better than anyone else in the country. It was called the "Iowa Way", and it was real. Other teams were left in the dust, and played catch-up.

Sound familiar? Different era, different time, but Cael has brought the same change-the-model thinking. Just as intense as the Iowa Way, but brought a lot more FUN into the equation, and pushing offensive-mindedness to an entirely new level. And again, everyone else is playing catch-up

(2) Comparing the "numbers" is fruitless, imo. Gable won this many straight Big Ten Championships, or that many NCAA Championships, or had this or that "number of anything", fans want to use for comparison. It's what we do...and that's ok. Just understand that it is a different time. There's no longer 146 teams (1981 number), there's 76, so talent is more concentrated. The number of scholarships are different. Recruiting is different. NCAA Rules have changed over that time. You name it, everywhere we turn, the factors are different. As an example, other than Iowa, the Big Ten didn't have a single other Big Ten team finish in the top-10 at NCAA's for 4 of Gable's first 12 years, and the conference averaged about 1 other team. From 2010 through 2018, other than PSU, the conference averaged 4 other teams, and never had fewer than 4 total. I could make arguments for and against this fact, and how it is a factor in Gable's favor, or in Cael's favor...but the point is, the landscape has changed.

(3) I don't believe, for a second, that Gable intentionally cheated re. scholarships. I just haven't seen enough evidence that proves it. Granted, there were more scholarships in his day, as androcles pointed out, and NCAA Rules were different, but everything I read points to administrators blowing it, not the coaches. I'll exclude that thinking when making a call on the better coach.

(4) So, what do I think, after considering everything, big-picture-style. It's a cop-out to some, I just think there's room at the top for both. However, if I was forced to decide, I'd give the edge to Gable, and use National Championships as the only measure. Too much noise (statistically speaking, the data is confounded) in other measures. Create the vision, then recruit, teach, train, instruct, advise, guide, etc...Cael does it all better than anyone today...
 
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RoarLions1 said:
Don't let one Iowa fan (PrairieHawk24) take this down a rabbit hole. Great discussion when we keep it out of the gutter.

My contribution...
(1) Gable and Cael are/were both great coaches. Gable changed the game (yes, I called it a game), and the landscape in his time by doing something different than everyone else. Hard-nosed, offensive-minded, dominate-your-opponent wrestling, by training harder and improving technique better than anyone else in the country. It was called the "Iowa Way", and it was real. Other teams were left in the dust, and played catch-up.

Sound familiar? Different era, different time, but Cael has brought the same change-the-model thinking. Just as intense as the Iowa Way, but brought a lot more FUN into the equation, and pushing offensive-mindedness to an entirely new level. And again, everyone else is playing catch-up

(2) Comparing the "numbers" is fruitless, imo. Gable won this many straight Big Ten Championships, or that many NCAA Championships, or had this or that "number of anything", fans want to use for comparison. It's what we do...and that's ok. Just understand that it is a different time. There's no longer 146 teams (1981 number), there's 76, so talent is more concentrated. The number of scholarships are different. Recruiting is different. NCAA Rules have changed over that time. You name it, everywhere we turn, the factors are different. As an example, other than Iowa, the Big Ten didn't have a single other Big Ten team finish in the top-10 at NCAA's for 4 of Gable's first 12 years, and the conference averaged about 1 other team. From 2010 through 2018, other than PSU, the conference averaged 4 other teams, and never had fewer than 4 total. I could make arguments for and against this fact, and how it is a factor in Gable's favor, or in Cael's favor...but the point is, the landscape has changed.

(3) I don't believe, for a second, that Gable intentionally cheated re. scholarships. I just haven't seen enough evidence that proves it. Granted, there were more scholarships in his day, as androcles pointed out, and NCAA Rules were different, but everything I read points to administrators blowing it, not the coaches. I'll exclude that thinking when making a call on the better coach.

(4) So, what do I think, after considering everything, big-picture-style. It's a cop-out to some, I just think there's room at the top for both. However, if I was forced to decide, I'd give the edge to Gable, and use National Championships as the only measure. Too much noise (statistically speaking, the data is confounded) in other measures. Create the vision, then recruit, teach, train, instruct, advise, guide, etc...Cael does it all better than anyone today...
Click to expand...
Some good points Roar, but on #3 - it’s the coaches duty and responsibility to know, understand, and adhere to the rules, and when uncertain, ask/clarify. The vast majority of the teams understood and abided by the rules. Playing mouse or playing dumb and doing so for such an extended period of time simply doesn’t cut it.
 
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dropster45 said:
Some good points Roar, but on #3 - it’s the coaches duty and responsibility to know, understand, and adhere to the rules, and when uncertain, ask/clarify. The vast majority of the teams understood and abided by the rules. Playing mouse or playing dumb and doing so for such an extended period of time simply doesn’t cut it.
Click to expand...
Think what you want. It's water way over the dam. I still believe you and others are unfairly singling out Dan Gable.

The violation covered years 1979-80 through 1990-91, and involved equivalency sports, in addition to wrestling; baseball, men's cross country and track, men's gymnastics, men's tennis, baseball, men's golf, men's soccer, men's swimming and diving, women's golf, and softball. It also involved 7 universities, not just Iowa.

That's a bunch of coaches, in a bunch of sports, at a bunch of universities, that did this for a bunch of years. Singling out Dan Gable is simply unfair...imo, of course. Lack of institutional control, at the conference level, better describes this failing.
 
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RoarLions1 said:
Think what you want. It's water way over the dam. I still believe you and others are unfairly singling out Dan Gable.

The violation covered years 1979-80 through 1990-91, and involved equivalency sports, in addition to wrestling; baseball, men's cross country and track, men's gymnastics, men's tennis, baseball, men's golf, men's soccer, men's swimming and diving, women's golf, and softball. It also involved 7 universities, not just Iowa.

That's a bunch of coaches, in a bunch of sports, at a bunch of universities, that did this for a bunch of years. Singling out Dan Gable is simply unfair...imo, of course. Lack of institutional control, at the conference level, better describes this failing.
Click to expand...
Couple of points:
1. This is a wrestling board, not a football board, hockey board, swimming board, etc. So we're focused on Gable because he was a wrestling coach and we're talking wrestling comparisons - not swimming or field hockey comparisons .
2. We're comparing the records of two excellent coaches and if Gable took actions which may have skewed the results in his favor, it is a legitimate discussion point.
3. You can bet your mortgage if you reversed the names and Cael had done what Gables did, HR would be on full melt down mode with Vodka leading the charge.
4. Finally when did it become okay to justify questionable actions just because others did it?
 
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RoarLions1 said:
Think what you want. It's water way over the dam. I still believe you and others are unfairly singling out Dan Gable.

The violation covered years 1979-80 through 1990-91, and involved equivalency sports, in addition to wrestling; baseball, men's cross country and track, men's gymnastics, men's tennis, baseball, men's golf, men's soccer, men's swimming and diving, women's golf, and softball. It also involved 7 universities, not just Iowa.

That's a bunch of coaches, in a bunch of sports, at a bunch of universities, that did this for a bunch of years. Singling out Dan Gable is simply unfair...imo, of course. Lack of institutional control, at the conference level, better describes this failing.
Click to expand...
This IS a thread comparing Cael to Gable, so Yes we are going to be talking about Gable, singling him out if we want to call it that. It’s correct to say that others within the Iowa athletic department were complicit. At the same time there were 1000’s of Coaches and Administrators from other schools who understood and complied, or when they didn’t, asked questions. Not so here - just kept the train rolling. We can’t change the fact that they operated with extra scholarships. That is just a fact, and one that gave them a competitive advantage over the course of many years.
 
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There was a thread on HR recently that showed that the loss of the 1.1 scholarships in the early 90's had the effect of evening out the playing field and limited the ability of the top teams in nationals scoring. An interesting read. By corollary, I should think that having a scholarship advantage would lead to less of an even playing field. That isn't pointing fingers at anyone for doing any wrong, but simply outlining the actual effects of changes in scholarships provided. A current example is schools that can only fund 4-5 schollies. They are better able to compete against the 9.9 funded schools than when the top schools had 11 or 13.
 
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Lion-around said:
Couple of points:
1. This is a wrestling board, not a football board, hockey board, swimming board, etc. So we're focused on Gable because he was a wrestling coach and we're talking wrestling comparisons - not swimming or field hockey comparisons .
2. We're comparing the records of two excellent coaches and if Gable took actions which may have skewed the results in his favor, it is a legitimate discussion point.
3. You can bet your mortgage if you reversed the names and Cael had done what Gables did, HR would be on full melt down mode with Vodka leading the charge.
4. Finally when did it become okay to justify questionable actions just because others did it?
Click to expand...

Good post. With regards to wrestling (since that's the sport we talk about here), none of the other sanctioned programs were even close to Iowa in terms of "over-awarding" scholarships. And does anybody believe this rule-breaking was limited to the four years the NCAA investigated? Please.

Again, Gable was a GREAT coach who, IMO remains the gold standard to this day, but don't for a minute pretend these proven violations didn't give him a decided advantage over the rule-following competition.
 
Lion-around said:
Couple of points:
1. This is a wrestling board, not a football board, hockey board, swimming board, etc. So we're focused on Gable because he was a wrestling coach and we're talking wrestling comparisons - not swimming or field hockey comparisons .
2. We're comparing the records of two excellent coaches and if Gable took actions which may have skewed the results in his favor, it is a legitimate discussion point.
3. You can bet your mortgage if you reversed the names and Cael had done what Gables did, HR would be on full melt down mode with Vodka leading the charge.
4. Finally when did it become okay to justify questionable actions just because others did it?
Click to expand...

I have no problem with the first 3 points, but I don't think it is fair to say Roar is "justifying" anything. Who can go back in time and know what was in Gable's heart and mind?....only two can do that, and its not us. Thus water under the bridge. His point also was that it looks institutional, not individual....but we just don't know. That does not sound like he is justifying anything to me, just that he can't (and shouldn't) talk about what he doesn't know.

I love debating, even ripping on rival teams (is always fun, especially if it is the Giants, Cowgirls, or Rangers), talking about who is best, etc, but when we start disparaging someone's character when in actuality we know absolutely zip (no matter what is out there we don't know....just compare what people say and assume about JoePa, they use the same type of arguments), that bothers me because it could happen to any one of us. All it takes is someone starting a rumor or "conversation", and some people will believe it, regardless of truth.

Its a fine line sometimes I know, but to me, Roar was just being careful and I can appreciate that.
 
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Pro-Gable, I'd say that Iowa has never won a championship (except for one share of a B1G title) without him on the staff as a head coach, assistant coach or unofficial coach. Never.
 
I’ll take what Cael has accomplished in this era vs what Gable did in his... Cael is superior, imo. Over on the HR and throughout the corn fields of Iowa, they scream that Cael is cheating... yet nothing has even been investigated as of yet. Not a peep, other than Vodka’s rants. Meanwhile, we have documentation that Gable was cheating... knowingly or not is irrelevant, it is what it is... 7.39 more than everyone else. Imagine if Cael could get away with that?
Today, HR is busying themselves with things like how disgusted they are that PSU pulled the plug on the cave exploring and rock climbing clubs.
 
Pennstate1985 said:
There was a thread on HR recently that showed that the loss of the 1.1 scholarships in the early 90's had the effect of evening out the playing field and limited the ability of the top teams in nationals scoring. An interesting read. By corollary, I should think that having a scholarship advantage would lead to less of an even playing field. That isn't pointing fingers at anyone for doing any wrong, but simply outlining the actual effects of changes in scholarships provided. A current example is schools that can only fund 4-5 schollies. They are better able to compete against the 9.9 funded schools than when the top schools had 11 or 13.
Click to expand...

Well, Gable's own record would seem to bare this out....if I have the numbers correct, Gable won 9 Team Championships in his first 10 years (9 Consecutive through 1986 after not winning it his first year), but then only won 6 Team Championships over his last 11 seasons (Gable was Coach 1976-1977 school year to the 1996-1997 school year). Cael producing 22 National Champions versus Gable only producing 16 National Champions during their first 9 seasons respectively at PSU and Iowa despite having a very real scholarship disadvantage cannot be simply ignored in this comparison. Yes, Gable won 8 Team Championships in his first 9 at Iowa, and Cael had one less in his first 9 at PSU (7 Team Championships), but it is extremely relevant that Cael produced 22 National Champions over the span, while Gable produced 16, when measuring how dominant these coaches were over the respective 9 year spans. As another poster pointed out, an additional single scholarship could have produced a multi-year champion (over a 9 year span it's a 2 scholarship advantage) -- it is pretty incredible that Cael produced 40% more National Champions despite having a very real and significant scholarship disadvantage.
 
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So you’re saying Cael can coach?:)
Interesting that just a couple years ago there was intense disagreements on whether he could or not. In just that short span of time we are now asking whether he is the best ever in the history of the sport. I’d say he’s already there, but he would deflect that by saying it’s the network of coaches, staff, and kids.
He’s humble like that.
 
dropster45 said:
So you’re saying Cael can coach?:)
Interesting that just a couple years ago there was intense disagreements on whether he could or not. In just that short span of time we are now asking whether he is the best ever in the history of the sport. I’d say he’s already there, but he would deflect that by saying it’s the network of coaches, staff, and kids.
He’s humble like that.
Click to expand...
BWI is asking if Cael is the best ever coach in the history of the sport, not everyone else. Everyone else knows Dan Gable is the greatest college wrestling coach of all time.
 
WildTurk said:
BWI is asking if Cael is the best ever coach in the history of the sport, not everyone else. Everyone else knows Dan Gable is the greatest college wrestling coach of all time.
Click to expand...
That isn't the question.

The question is about the first 9 years at their respective schools.
 
That wasn’t really my point, but where the conversation leads to - just my opinion though. You guys have to take some heat for the “Cael can’t coach” mantra and I’m here to deliver:)
 
So I'm curious, why no mention of the 4 years following '91 when Iowa gave up 2 scholarships per year to cover 88-91? 92- 1st, 93- 1st, 94- 2nd, 95-1st, 96- 1st, 97-1st, Jimmy Z-98-1st, 99-1st, 2000- 1st. I don't know who's stats are better. They are both crazy good.
 
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PrairieHawk24 said:
Cael lost last years BigTen Championship... Gable never did.

Case closed
Click to expand...

Gable took over at Iowa when it was the weak sister in the state of Iowa and the Big Ten was a second tier conference to the then Big 8.

Back in the day, the Big Ten conference was a much easier place to rack up wins, without as much competition. Gable’s reputation and abilities as an excellent coach and mentor for young men vaulted Iowa to the top of a weaker conference. Wins are always great for a program and the Hawks were off and running, dominating an era.

There were more scholarships back in the day, to allow a top team to load up on athletes, keeping a few great wrestlers out of competitor’s wrestling rooms. There were creative scholarship money “assumptions” back then, that allowed for stacking the deck, that have since been removed.

Today the Big Ten is arguably the premier NCAA wrestling conference. It is much harder to dominate the BT conference today, with more premier teams vying for the top.

====

We all know it is difficult to try to take the past and apply it to the present, when conditions have significantly changed. Each era stands on its own, given conditions at that time.

====

Dan Gable’s great record as a head coach and leader are set, highlighting his marvelous legacy.

Fortunately, NCAA wrestling is blessed to have another great Iowa State Cyclone as an NCAA wrestling head coach, who is blazing another bright path and transforming wrestling in the modern era.

Cael’s Era is still underway and the story is still being written. So far, Cael appears to have raised the level of NCAA wrestling to a more exciting, more fun and higher scoring level that fans appreciate. Those are distinctive and incredible achievements, considering all of the greats who helped to lay the foundation for the modern era that we now enjoy.
 
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T J said:
Gable took over at Iowa when it was the weak sister in the state of Iowa and the Big Ten was a second tier conference to the then Big 8.

Back in the day, the Big Ten conference was a much easier place to rack up wins, without as much competition. Gable’s reputation and abilities as an excellent coach and mentor for young men vaulted Iowa to the top of a weaker conference. Wins are always great for a program and the Hawks were off and running, dominating an era.

There were more scholarships back in the day, to allow a top team to load up on athletes, keeping a few great wrestlers out of competitor’s wrestling rooms. There were creative scholarship money “assumptions” back then, that allowed for stacking the deck, that have since been removed.

Today the Big Ten is arguably the premier NCAA wrestling conference. It is much harder to dominate the BT conference today, with more premier teams vying for the top.

====

We all know it is difficult to try to take the past and apply it to the present, when conditions have significantly changed. Each era stands on its own, given conditions at that time.

====

Dan Gable’s great record as a head coach and leader are set, highlighting his marvelous legacy.

Fortunately, NCAA wrestling is blessed to have another great Iowa State Cyclone as an NCAA wrestling head coach, who is blazing another bright path and transforming wrestling in the modern era.

Cael’s Era is still un.derway and the story is still being written. So far, Cael appears to have raised the level of NCAA wrestling to a more exciting, more fun and higher scoring level that fans appreciate. Those are distinctive and incredible achievements, considering all of the greats who helped to lay the foundation for the modern era that we now enjoy.
Click to expand...

Not completely true, Gable's predecessor (Gary Kurdelmeier) - the person who hired him from ISU btw - handed the two-time defending National Champions to Gable when he handed the program to Gable to assume the AD responsibilities at Iowa. Iowa placed 3rd at NCAA's his first year as coach (the 1977 NCAA Wrestling Championships for the 1976-1977 school year). Gable then won 9 straight.
 
CJF_Said_The_Great_Joe_Paterno said:
Not completely true, Gable's predecessor (Gary Kurdelmeier) - the person who hired him from ISU btw - handed the two-time defending National Champions to Gable when he handed the program to Gable to assume the AD responsibilities at Iowa. Iowa placed 3rd at NCAA's his first year as coach (the 1977 NCAA Wrestling Championships for the 1976-1977 school year). Gable then won 9 straight.
Click to expand...

To be more specific, Dan Gable was a major draw for talent when he was an assistant at Iowa for four years. Gable was the big draw for recruiting and/or training better wrestlers during seasons 1972, 73, 74, and 75, prior to Dan being handed the HC job. Those four assistant years for Gable paralleled the four HC years of Gary Kurdelmeier.

Dan Gable was appointed the University of Iowa head coach in the 1976 off season, after serving as an assistant to Gary Kurdelmeier for four years.
​
While those four assistant years don’t count for Gable as head coach, a tip-of-the-hat should probably be made toward Dan Gable, for being a major force behind changing the U of IA program even as an assistant, beginning in 1972.

For reference ...

Iowa did not finish in the top ten teams at the NCAA Championships in 1971.

Iowa is not listed by the NCAA pdf as being in the top ten teams in 1972. (Although no team is listed at #6)

In 1973, Iowa finished #7.
1974 Iowa was #5.



​
 
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