Fearless Warrior
- Thread starter jammenz
- Start date
I'm done. The facts are obvious. The spin is ridiculous. I just want to see the team trophy Rutgers brought home from Pittsburgh. Then I'll give Rutgers their due.
this warrior thread is swell..can you dig it!!..loved their adventure making it back to their turf. "the warriors did it, they killed cyrus!" just 10 did this weekend, the warriors made to the top of the podium back to coney.
"warriors, warriors, warriors, come out to playyyyyyeeeaaaa. warriors, warrriors come out to playehhhhhhh."
hahahahahaha....woooooeeeeee, warriors taking down the hawkeyes. lol
"warriors, warriors, warriors, come out to playyyyyyeeeaaaa. warriors, warrriors come out to playehhhhhhh."
hahahahahaha....woooooeeeeee, warriors taking down the hawkeyes. lol
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U sound like an old fart man... RU just got 2 national champs this year and u keep nitpicking on 2016 B10s.. yeah, that was a better dual meet team but isn’t what happens at NCAA what matters the most in this sport? But wait! RU scored more points at b10 3 years ago.. this overrides everything!!
You build sustained excellence by having good teams, not a couple of individuals. Going from 10 top 8 guys at B1Gs in 2016 to 4 this year is abysmal. Again, next season is going to be so much fun. Rutgers has no points returning except for three seniors, two of whom combined for 3 points. But no, you're right - the future is bright.
Next year Rutgers will be worse at duals, B1Gs and NCAAs, so enjoy the moment.Look at the teams that have had one or two champs sometime. Then think a bit.
And I'm still waiting for the photo of the team trophy Rutgers brought back from Pittsburgh.
You build sustained excellence by having good teams, not a couple of individuals. Going from 10 top 8 guys at B1Gs in 2016 to 4 this year is abysmal. Again, next season is going to be so much fun. Rutgers has no points returning except for three seniors, two of whom combined for 3 points. But no, you're right - the future is bright.
Look at the teams that have had one or two champs sometime. Then think a bit.
And I'm still waiting for the photo of the team trophy Rutgers brought back from Pittsburgh.
Wait I thought you were done?
Nolf has a lot of respect for Matter. Everybody gives Matter a lot of crap for posting and posting and posting, but Matter just wants to hate. Nolf loves that about Matter. Matter’s just passionate. Nolf doesn’t think we can get mad at someone for being passionate about whom they hate.
Who are the really good guys that you speak of and do they compare to the really good guys most other Big 10 teams are getting?
Aragonas their top recruit in this class 9th overall (flo) and ranked 1st at 138. I believe he won his match at the Pittsburgh classic but I may have to double check that. They also have Jackson Turley coming in who Flo has ranked 6th at 182 as well as Kanniard who is coming off a state title in New Jersey and ranked 10th at 160 by flo
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As a team, RU didnt perform very well but they did get two national champs, which is saying something. I havent been impressed with their recruiting, especially having so many Jersey kids go elsewhere, but its understandable
The 2 champs & new facilities make it possible for RU to make a move up in recruiting the next couple years. So far, they've not kept many of the best kids home and have been terrible recruiting any top talent out of state. Not unexpected competing against legendary teams like PSU, Iowa & tOSU
This is their shot to leverage 2 nat'l champs and a new facility into better recruits. I think a marquee HC would help immensely. Scott G has done his job, time to hand it off to someone with some clout imo
The 2 champs & new facilities make it possible for RU to make a move up in recruiting the next couple years. So far, they've not kept many of the best kids home and have been terrible recruiting any top talent out of state. Not unexpected competing against legendary teams like PSU, Iowa & tOSU
This is their shot to leverage 2 nat'l champs and a new facility into better recruits. I think a marquee HC would help immensely. Scott G has done his job, time to hand it off to someone with some clout imo
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Narrow victory over a D2-bound wrestler. One NJ title and a bunch of close wins this year when he won it (6-4 in the quarters, 6-1 in the semis and 7-1 in the finals). He certainly wasn't "dominant". Not a lot of progression in HS either. I'm not convinced by Flo's ranking - either from what I've seen and from results. Is he really a lot better than Starocci, for example? Because Flo has him a lot higher than Starocci.
You're a pretty reasonable guy, JH, and I know you catch your share of flak on the Rutgers board. So I'm lifting my self-imposed ban in the hopes of some serious dialogue in the subject.
I don't think Rutgers wrestled poorly at nationals. They had only 4 top 8 finishers at B1Gs and JVB was an 8th and Gravina was a 6th. Neither had placed in three previous tries. You couldn't reasonably expect much from anyone other than AA and Suriano. Rutgers pretty much did what you'd expect.
I totally agree about Goodale. He's had 12 years running the program and has been on a downhill slide for three years on a team level. Next year looks to be pretty much a train wreck for Rutgers. They'll be back to a somewhat tougher schedule (this past season was the creampuff one) and there really isn't much in their returning lineup and those coming in. The last time they had the tough schedule (2017-18), they wound up 3-6 in the B1G. Likely a one to three win dual season in B1G coming up and I don't see anything close to Ashnault's points being replaced in the post season. And then Suriano is gone. Maybe next year is the one that gets Goodale out the door, because expectations are going to be pretty high from the fanbase now.
Everyone seems to forget that Goodale had a #1 overall recruiting class a while back. To manage getting the two best wrestlers in NJ HS history to the top of the podium is better than not getting them there at all, but think of the number of multi-time champs since Ashnault finished high school. What does it say when Ashnault has to get an extra year to get there one time? Is the message that you have to be "best ever in HS" level to get to the top of the podium one time under Goodale? And how appealing is that? Mekhi Lewis did it in one year at VT.
In my mind, the recruiting block has been lessened - not removed.
If you review NJ wrestling, you find 4 champs and 5 finalists this season (arguably 5 champs with McKenna but thats another debate) and 2 top seeds that didnt make the finals in Martin & Rivera. Not bad.
But in SGs years as HC of Rutgers, with a deep local talent pool, this past Saturday is all Rutgers has in champs and one finalist from last season and the team has been average at best competing in the Big10
Granted, RU is behind the 8ball recruiting against the top Big teams. Going up against legendary coaches & programs. SG has reached his ceiling imo. He can parade AA & NS around all he wants, hard to overcome recruiting against Cael, the Brands or Ryan and their programs.
With a new facility, finally some championship name recognition thanks to NS & AA, maybe they can leverage that with a marquee name coach. Maybe JB. Theres generally no reason to chose RU over PSU or other top programs if youre an elite wrestler, all things being equal.. But RU can sure become more appealing locally with the new facility & marquee head coach, the talent is there and eventually will also help recruiting out of state
I'd argue more about Martin than McKenna since McKenna is from NJ and wrestled in the home town of Roy's Hall. Rivera, frankly, is another black eye for Rutgers. Not a really celebrated career in NJ and look at the strides he's made at NW.
Aragona beat AA state champ Jacob Ealy 5-1 at Dapper Dan. Ealy is headed to UPJ, and IMO that's about right -- maybe he could start at a less successful D1 program. I wasn't particularly impressed by Aragona, but maybe that was a bad day.
I'm more impressed by Turley, think he could be a multiple D1 AA. Don't know much about Kanniard. They also landed Devon Britton from Northampton, who finished 6th at PA AAA this year.
I'm skeptical about Rutgers capitalizing on their 2 champs -- for the simple reason that Suriano as a finalist didn't move the needle in NJ recruiting.
Also, Britton is the first PA recruit since 2013. (The last one, Tyson Dippery from Harrisburg, transferred to Rider.)
Below are recent NJ national prospects and where they're headed. (Including PA residents who attend NJ schools, and NJ wrestlers who attend PA schools.)
I'll allow others to draw conclusions about the types of wrestlers Rutgers lands vs. misses.
2018:
Shane Griffith Stanford
Gerard Angelo Cornell
Quinn Kinner Ohio State
Antonio Mininno Drexel
Joe Manchio Columbia
Pat Glory Princeton
Malcolm Robinson Rutgers
Michael O'Malley Drexel
Andrew Merola Cornell
Bill Janzer Rutgers
2019:
Chris Foca Cornell
Michael Colaiocco Penn
Ryan Anderson Iowa State
Julian Ramirez Cornell
Nick Raimo Arizona State
Ricky Cabanillas Brown
JoJo Aragona Rutgers
Sammy Alvarez NC State
Robert Kanniard Rutgers
Jacob Cardenas Cornell
Chris Cannon Northwestern
Lewis Fernandes Cornell
Josh McKenzie football
Mike Madara NC State
Zach DelVecchio (uncommitted)
2020:
AJ Ferrari (uncommitted)
Robert Howard Penn State
Trevor Mastrogiovanni Oklahoma State
Dominic Mata (uncommitted)
Dylan Cedeno (uncommitted)
Connor O'Neil Rutgers
Anthony Clark (uncommitted)
John Poznanski Rutgers
Ryan Miller Penn
Eddie Ventresca Virginia Tech
Give Burroughs the brink truck to come and train through 2020 at RU RTC with him taking the shoes off in 2020 and taking over with a coach in waiting position in 2021-2022. He would be the juice to bring the NJ giant out of its coma.
They have to go big and go big now with a short and long term plan. If they dont, they have no body to blame then themselves if there is major distance between this years titles and the next one (after NJ kid leaves).
Lets face Goodale is a promoter not an X and Os guy. So move him into an AD admin role.
Bingo.
And if he brings Bryan Snyder with him -- get an Easton boy to recruit PA -- they might actually become Perennial Top Ten Rutgers.
I don't have a dog in this fight, but after reading through this thread I'm inclined to go with Matter's point of view.
First, 2 National Champions is no small accomplishment, I admit, but what is next? Goodale is going to have maybe 1 or 2 years to parlay that into a recruiting advantage, but he'll need to do that under the cover of darkness since his team is going to be god awful next year ... Nick will be nothing more than lipstick on his pig.
From what I gather, Rutgers had no point scorers from their Fr/So classes. How can anyone argue that is sign of a program on the rise?
If people think Ashnault/Suriano can be program builders = Taylor/Ruth, I guess we'll see, but I would argue it's not going to happen.
First, 2 National Champions is no small accomplishment, I admit, but what is next? Goodale is going to have maybe 1 or 2 years to parlay that into a recruiting advantage, but he'll need to do that under the cover of darkness since his team is going to be god awful next year ... Nick will be nothing more than lipstick on his pig.
From what I gather, Rutgers had no point scorers from their Fr/So classes. How can anyone argue that is sign of a program on the rise?
If people think Ashnault/Suriano can be program builders = Taylor/Ruth, I guess we'll see, but I would argue it's not going to happen.
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Just to clarify: Grello (SO 174) did score 2.0 pts this year.
Janzer had a decent shirt year at 184. If he can qualify for nationals next year, he could beat Gravina's 0-2.
But that's it. Their next guys and other shirts all bombed.
I still am a big believer that the really good college coaches develop talent and bring out the best that each recruit has. Just to open another can of worms, how many National Champs has Ryan developed from the many 4 time state champs that he has recruited?
I agree with this but I do think they could still get it done with Goodale at the helm. Promoters are definitely needed to help build programs and I believe Goodale has done a very good job of getting Rutgers to where they are now but it’s also all about the assistants you have on your staff. Donnie Pritzlaff and Brian Murphy are the most accomplished guys they have on there at the moment. I think they may bring Ashnault on board similar to what Tom has done with Bo Jordan at Ohio State but it’ll take more than that if they wanna capitalize on their accomplishments from this past weekend. IIRC Richie Lewis did an interview after his NCAA tournament was over and when they asked what his plans were next he said he’d be where ever Donnie goes. Pritzlaff has been a head coach in waiting for a very long time and with more and more head jobs becoming available as the years go on it’ll be a risk for them to be able to keep him. If I’m the Rutgers AD I move on from Goodale before I ever let Pritzlaff go somewhere else
That's a loaded question -- college typically hasn't been kind to PA 4x champs.
But to indulge:
Logan Stieber turned out OK.
Snyder (4x national preps champ) was decent.
Tomasello - champ and 4x AA, lowest finish 3rd
Bo Jordan -- finalist (lost to Hall) and 4x AA.
Micah Jordan -- finalist and 3x AA.
Hunter Stieber -- 2x AA. Ravaged by shoulder and elbow injuries.
Campolattano -- off the mat issues. Transferred to Rutgers and couldn't start there.
Haines -- transferred after 1 year when Snyder went HWT.
Romero -- has no offense. (In hindsight, Labriola exposed that at Dapper Dan.) Just finished his RSFR year and probably is being recruited over.
Anyone else?
Cam Tessari true freshman AA who had off the mat issues as well. Went to Hofstra for a semester then ended up at NAIA Lindsey Wilson where he finished 2nd and 1st
Im in agreement. RU has an opportunity now, while the pokers hot, but its a short lived one because their team isnt going to be all that competitive in the Bigs next year imo. Also, outside of Suriano, who's going to score points at the NCAAs? Their #9 finish will sound great but will they make the top 20 next season?
Time for the HC upgrade. Donny is great and has some name recognition. Not sure thats enough for recruiting. They need the glitz of a bigtime name that will attract top recruits, starting in NJ. Heck, if you cant recruit the best in state, what prayer do you have to get Pa's best or Ohio etc.?
Even a big name HC might not do the trick but if they want to take a shot of becoming a bigtime wrestling program, the talent is there in NJ and the time is now.
It's an extreme amount of patience required to think that 12 years into his tenure he's gotten Rutgers to this point as a "very good job". Dresser is on his way to getting a second program past this point in the same time period and, despite what Rutgers people want to think, VT was in a much worse condition than Rutgers was in 2007.
Goodale's first team at Rutgers was 5-3 in EIWA dual meets (11-7 overall). Obviously, the EIWA isn't as strong as the B1G, but there are some very good teams there and the idea that the team he inherited had a bare cupboard is invention (Tom Brands would have killed for a 5-3 or 11-7 team in his second year at VT). By his 11th season, Rutgers went 3-6 in B1G duals (2017-18). He's been basically treading water for 12 seasons.
https://scarletknights.com/coaches.aspx?rc=2548
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I reserve the right to address new arguments.
I just think your assessment isn't backed by data. If you look at his coaching record, he's stayed pretty much at the same spot in dual results (adjusted for competition). He had a #1 overall recruiting class from which he got zero AA placements. He'll get an odd year or two of better results and then slide back down for a few years. It's been the same his entire career. He is very good at finding ways to distract people by moving the goalposts. But it's been a consistent, somewhat better than purely mediocre, career.
He's coming to the end of his shot with the all-time best NJ HS wrestlers without much in the pipeline and a not-great chance of sustaining that misleading "success". You take away those two guys (who, frankly, are good enough they would probably win titles no matter where they went to school) and you had 4.5 points from JVB (senior), 1 point from Lipari (Jr.) and 2 points from Grello (Soph.). That's not a sustainable platform for a successful program.
I will give him credit for his ability to fool people enough to get better facilities for the program, though. But if Rutgers is going to really advance their program, they need a new HC.
Btw, is Burroughs quietly campaigning to be the guy?
I just think your assessment isn't backed by data. If you look at his coaching record, he's stayed pretty much at the same spot in dual results (adjusted for competition). He had a #1 overall recruiting class from which he got zero AA placements. He'll get an odd year or two of better results and then slide back down for a few years. It's been the same his entire career. He is very good at finding ways to distract people by moving the goalposts. But it's been a consistent, somewhat better than purely mediocre, career.
He's coming to the end of his shot with the all-time best NJ HS wrestlers without much in the pipeline and a not-great chance of sustaining that misleading "success". You take away those two guys (who, frankly, are good enough they would probably win titles no matter where they went to school) and you had 4.5 points from JVB (senior), 1 point from Lipari (Jr.) and 2 points from Grello (Soph.). That's not a sustainable platform for a successful program.
I will give him credit for his ability to fool people enough to get better facilities for the program, though. But if Rutgers is going to really advance their program, they need a new HC.
Btw, is Burroughs quietly campaigning to be the guy?
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Matter please back up your own data and get this one correct. He never had the #1 overall recruiting class. If you are referring to 2008 please cite who ranked this #1 overall. TOM, Intermat, D1CW etc never had them above 2-3.
My memory may be flawed on that recollection. I recalled someone ranking the class #1. It doesn't really change the point though. He had a recruiting class ranked 2nd or 3rd in 2008 and didn't get an AA out of the bunch. Is that better?
Matter, u got a shoutout on FLowrestling’s FRL 363.. skip to 1:10:00 mark..
Flo and Rutgers? The greatest love affair in college wrestling history?
Hey, kid, since you're over here, I have a couple of questions for you.Matter, u got a shoutout on FLowrestling’s FRL 363.. skip to 1:10:00 mark..
Are you in agreement with that group of people over there who are attacking wrestlestat because Jordan is still ranked higher than Ashnault?
Did you vote for Ashnault for the Hodge?
I would contend that anyone that looks objectively at the Hodge criteria, then at the four wrestlers' results, that anyone who votes for someone other than Nolf or Nickel, has a screwed-up algorithm.
Hey, paw, sure.
Wrestlestat uses a different set of algorithm to rank wrestlers.. I am not sure how it’s calculated... That being said, i don’t understand how Micah is still ranked higher then Ash... I don’t think they were attacking wrestlestat but rather trying to figure out the logistics... anyways I’d use flo/Intermat to look at rankings and wrestlestat if u wanna compare wrestlers or stats.
Yes, I voted for Ash... Bc I am a diehard RU/NJ wrestling fan and wanted to show my support... I am not expecting Ash to win nor do I feel he deserves it the most. I am just thrilled Ash was able to be recognized in the finals hodge contender.. a feather in his cap for an amazing sr year..
No doubt about it Nolf or Nickel’s body of work deserve the hodge the most this year..
To each their own, but I think it's screwed up to vote for an undeserving person at the expense of a deserving one.
Ill pinch hit for fearlesswarrior7172...... In the mind of RU fans, finishing in 2nd place in the hodge vote is really like winning it.
while to normal fans, 2nd place is the first loser.
Did I do that right matter?
If Nolf wrestled for any other team, Ashnault would be a distant 3rd. Splitting the PSU fan votes "matters". I understand the "he's our guy" thing, but if Rutgers fans bothered to know or follow the actual Hodge criteria, Ashnault should only get fan votes from his family.
This is why the fan vote is capped at something around 2%.
If Ashnault gets a handful of publicity votes from Rutgers fans, it's not changing the winner.
