First salvo on the 2018-19 schedule

[Chickenman Testa]

Cael? I am uncertain if Cael is ever attacked. Apparently there is some guy named Carl who is affiliated with the program and he is really disliked over on HR. I have never been able to find out who this guy is, but my God all the things he does he must be a really bad dude.

Yeah, how brain-dead is that stupid nickname.

 

[RoarLions1]

"We discussed how Iowa had an advantage in the endowment funding."

Yeah, that and 7.39 extra scholarships (audited over a 4 year period that probably really happened from 1979_80 through the1990_91 academic years). Note that the Big Ten accounting rule was different than the NCAA rule, but OSU, MSU, and Northwestern followed the NCAA rules

This link should direct you to the PDF, from the NCAA Committee on Infractions

Very interesting reading. Big Ten put a rule in that was contrary to the NCAA of how aide was calculated using out-of-state equivalencies (1978). NCAA told the Big Ten their rule needed to be amended as it was contrary to NCAA rules (1979). Big Ten tried to get this passed nationally, but it was rejected by the NCAA (1984). Big Ten rescinded the rule in 1990. NCAA started investigating in 1991 and requested audits in 1992. 1993 the 7 institutions admitted they were wrong (OSU, MSU and Northwestern had the sense to follow the NCAA rules).

For the wrestling part (remember this affected a few minor sports and not just wrestling), the seven schools had these audited extra scholarships over the 4 year period of the audit:
Illinois: 0.0
Indiana: 1.74
Iowa: 7.39
Michigan: 0.60
Minnesota: 1.73
Purdue: 0.0
Wisconsin: 0.865

Which number jumps out the most? Iowa had 60% of the illegal wrestling scholarships across the Big Ten. Second most was Iowa Baseball at 6.83 and Indiana baseball at 5.36. Illinois, Michigan, Purdue and Wisconsin had very small infractions (all less than Iowa's Wrestling portion).

Now, it is interesting that Iowa started a nine year NCAA run from 1978-1986, exactly when the new rule took place!!!! They certainly had the greatest coach ever, but while others were limited to 11 scholarships, Iowa was using an extra 1.85 per year. Imagine if any top 5 program now had an extra 1.85 scholarships!!

Enjoy the reading. While the Big Ten was censured, every program knew they were violating the NCAA rules.

https://web3.ncaa.org/lsdbi/search/miCaseView/report?id=101820

Fair and honest comments CentexLion. I have read the NCAA document many times over the years, and have come to a bigger-picture version of the root cause. One of the elements I've heard and read in the past (again, to you're credit, it wasn't brought up), is that this was solely a Dan Gable thing...that he cheated, PERIOD, and no mention of any other facts. Imho, that's not fair.

Seven schools were involved, and twelve sports, for a combination of 43 different programs, one of which was Iowa Wrestling. Two schools (Indiana and Minnesota) had 9 sports (that's the highest) involved, and Baseball Men's Cross-Country were the two most involved sports (at seven schools each). I know the Iowa Wrestling number was high, but it doesn't come close to explaining how the rules were skirted for so long, by so many folks. So we have seven AD's, at least, and then the administrators that focus on each given sport, the 43 head coaches and their assistants plus any that changed over in those years...probably talking into the hundreds of individuals. This was an institutional control issue at the highest level of the Big Ten's Athletic Leadership, imho.

Regarding the timing, and the wrestling-specific part, it does appear possible that it affected Iowa's national championships run...though I can't prove it and have never seen others prove it, so it's an anecdotal thought to me. Gary Kurdelmeier won two championships in 1975 and 1976, and Gable won his first in 1978. 1988 through 1092 were the 4 years audited as the violation phase, though the NCAA Report states that 1979 was the year it all began. Then, with reduced scholarships sometime from 1993 to 1996 or 1997, Iowa continued winning championships. This included years up to and including 2000, when Zalesky was coach.

I prefer to give Iowa and Dan Gable their due for the period of time they were on top, same as I'm giving Penn State and Cael Sanderson their due for their accomplishments the last 8 years.

 

[CentexLion]

Fair and honest comments CentexLion. I have read the NCAA document many times over the years, and have come to a bigger-picture version of the root cause. One of the elements I've heard and read in the past (again, to you're credit, it wasn't brought up), is that this was solely a Dan Gable thing...that he cheated, PERIOD, and no mention of any other facts. Imho, that's not fair.

Seven schools were involved, and twelve sports, for a combination of 43 different programs, one of which was Iowa Wrestling. Two schools (Indiana and Minnesota) had 9 sports (that's the highest) involved, and Baseball Men's Cross-Country were the two most involved sports (at seven schools each). I know the Iowa Wrestling number was high, but it doesn't come close to explaining how the rules were skirted for so long, by so many folks. So we have seven AD's, at least, and then the administrators that focus on each given sport, the 43 head coaches and their assistants plus any that changed over in those years...probably talking into the hundreds of individuals. This was an institutional control issue at the highest level of the Big Ten's Athletic Leadership, imho.

Regarding the timing, and the wrestling-specific part, it does appear possible that it affected Iowa's national championships run...though I can't prove it and have never seen others prove it, so it's an anecdotal thought to me. Gary Kurdelmeier won two championships in 1975 and 1976, and Gable won his first in 1978. 1988 through 1092 were the 4 years audited as the violation phase, though the NCAA Report states that 1979 was the year it all began. Then, with reduced scholarships sometime from 1993 to 1996 or 1997, Iowa continued winning championships. This included years up to and including 2000, when Zalesky was coach.

I prefer to give Iowa and Dan Gable their due for the period of time they were on top, same as I'm giving Penn State and Cael Sanderson their due for their accomplishments the last 8 years.

Excellent thought process RoarLIons.

Your quote "This was an institutional control issue at the highest level of the Big Ten's Athletic Leadership, imho." is really the heart of it. All 10 Big10 schools knew what they were doing (or were not doing wrt OSU, MSU, and Northwestern) as well as all Big 10 conference people. I believe many in the NCAA also knew, but were afraid to attack the Big Ten. The schools knew they had the Big 10 as a buffer and bully to the NCAA. The parallel now is States having Pro MJ laws, even though it is illegal Federally.

Iowa Wrestling did become a powerhouse a few years prior, and I believe, used the 17% extra scholarships to form a juggernaut. The next largest cheater was Indiana with 0.435 extras per year which is a huge difference from Iowa's 1.85. At that time, Gable became head coach and transformed Iowa's style and overall wrestling with his 24/7 mentality, in-your-face, forward moving wrestling. With Gable and 17% more scholarships than anyone else, nobody touched them. After the sanctions, they still had the huge momentum from the prior decade to easily Market their program to kids (probably the same momentum that PSU now has where guys like Verk would walk on after having an ISU scholarship). Guys like Royce Alger walked on at Iowa (given an academic scholarship first semester and converted to athletic after he won the starting spot).

And then, along came Cael, with an even more exciting style, undefeated official college career, and the most fertile recruiting grounds (along with a school that really did support wrestling since the inception but could not get over the hump). Iowa's reign ended.

I wonder, that if PSU was in the Big Ten during the time we are discussing, would they have been part of the 7 that got sanctioned, or with the 3 that did not break the NCAA rules. I really believe they would have been the 4th of the non-breakers, as PSU is still one of only 2 schools to never break NCAA rules leading to sanction (Stanford the other). That will certainly garner a Sandusky comment, so I'm beating all to the punch there.

This all goes in cycles, and PSU's time will eventually end (as did OK State), but I am certainly enjoying it while it lasts, and hope it lasts another 20 years+

Final note, is I'm SHOCKED that OSU and MSU followed the NCAA rules and didn't use the Big Ten as the buffer. Probably since it was minor sports and not football/basketball affected.

 

[RoarLions1]

I, too, am enjoying the ride, Centex...thankful and grateful and blessed.

 

[Callthestall]

If I recall when I was talking to Fritz about the endowment issues, he spoke mostly about how well funded Iowa was. I do think he spoke how scholarships we're allotted but was not real specific on the details.
I think it has been truly remarkable what Penn State has accomplished with the guidelines in place on money and scholarships.
Cael and Co. have very little room for error in ability. I believe one of the positive recruiting tools PSU has, it recruits kids who will most likely not have academic or discipline issues. This allows the limited scholarship issue to not have the same affect on their program compared to other programs that misjudge character of a recruit.

 

[jtothemfp]

Excellent thought process RoarLIons.

Your quote "This was an institutional control issue at the highest level of the Big Ten's Athletic Leadership, imho." is really the heart of it. All 10 Big10 schools knew what they were doing (or were not doing wrt OSU, MSU, and Northwestern) as well as all Big 10 conference people. I believe many in the NCAA also knew, but were afraid to attack the Big Ten. The schools knew they had the Big 10 as a buffer and bully to the NCAA. The parallel now is States having Pro MJ laws, even though it is illegal Federally.

Iowa Wrestling did become a powerhouse a few years prior, and I believe, used the 17% extra scholarships to form a juggernaut. The next largest cheater was Indiana with 0.435 extras per year which is a huge difference from Iowa's 1.85. At that time, Gable became head coach and transformed Iowa's style and overall wrestling with his 24/7 mentality, in-your-face, forward moving wrestling. With Gable and 17% more scholarships than anyone else, nobody touched them. After the sanctions, they still had the huge momentum from the prior decade to easily Market their program to kids (probably the same momentum that PSU now has where guys like Verk would walk on after having an ISU scholarship). Guys like Royce Alger walked on at Iowa (given an academic scholarship first semester and converted to athletic after he won the starting spot).

And then, along came Cael, with an even more exciting style, undefeated official college career, and the most fertile recruiting grounds (along with a school that really did support wrestling since the inception but could not get over the hump). Iowa's reign ended.

I wonder, that if PSU was in the Big Ten during the time we are discussing, would they have been part of the 7 that got sanctioned, or with the 3 that did not break the NCAA rules. I really believe they would have been the 4th of the non-breakers, as PSU is still one of only 2 schools to never break NCAA rules leading to sanction (Stanford the other). That will certainly garner a Sandusky comment, so I'm beating all to the punch there.

This all goes in cycles, and PSU's time will eventually end (as did OK State), but I am certainly enjoying it while it lasts, and hope it lasts another 20 years+

Final note, is I'm SHOCKED that OSU and MSU followed the NCAA rules and didn't use the Big Ten as the buffer. Probably since it was minor sports and not football/basketball affected.

Great intel and takes, Centex; thank you!

 

[Locolion]

Excellent thought process RoarLIons.

Your quote "This was an institutional control issue at the highest level of the Big Ten's Athletic Leadership, imho." is really the heart of it. All 10 Big10 schools knew what they were doing (or were not doing wrt OSU, MSU, and Northwestern) as well as all Big 10 conference people. I believe many in the NCAA also knew, but were afraid to attack the Big Ten. The schools knew they had the Big 10 as a buffer and bully to the NCAA. The parallel now is States having Pro MJ laws, even though it is illegal Federally.

Iowa Wrestling did become a powerhouse a few years prior, and I believe, used the 17% extra scholarships to form a juggernaut. The next largest cheater was Indiana with 0.435 extras per year which is a huge difference from Iowa's 1.85. At that time, Gable became head coach and transformed Iowa's style and overall wrestling with his 24/7 mentality, in-your-face, forward moving wrestling. With Gable and 17% more scholarships than anyone else, nobody touched them. After the sanctions, they still had the huge momentum from the prior decade to easily Market their program to kids (probably the same momentum that PSU now has where guys like Verk would walk on after having an ISU scholarship). Guys like Royce Alger walked on at Iowa (given an academic scholarship first semester and converted to athletic after he won the starting spot).

And then, along came Cael, with an even more exciting style, undefeated official college career, and the most fertile recruiting grounds (along with a school that really did support wrestling since the inception but could not get over the hump). Iowa's reign ended.

I wonder, that if PSU was in the Big Ten during the time we are discussing, would they have been part of the 7 that got sanctioned, or with the 3 that did not break the NCAA rules. I really believe they would have been the 4th of the non-breakers, as PSU is still one of only 2 schools to never break NCAA rules leading to sanction (Stanford the other). That will certainly garner a Sandusky comment, so I'm beating all to the punch there.

This all goes in cycles, and PSU's time will eventually end (as did OK State), but I am certainly enjoying it while it lasts, and hope it lasts another 20 years+

Final note, is I'm SHOCKED that OSU and MSU followed the NCAA rules and didn't use the Big Ten as the buffer. Probably since it was minor sports and not football/basketball affected.

For the record, Stanford hs NCAA violations (2016). “Stanford's football and softball teams were found guilty of NCAA violations, including more than $3,000 in impermissible benefits to a football player and excessive practice time by the softball team.Sep 15, 2016.”

 

[98lberEating2Lunches]

Kent State visits Rec Hall, Sunday, November 11 for 1PM dual.

 

[ZepGraffiti]

Kent State visits Rec Hall, Sunday, November 11 for 1PM dual.

Bo vs Conel? Fun.

 

[RoarLions1]

Kent State visits Rec Hall, Sunday, November 11 for 1PM dual.

Match is scheduled for 2:00pm.

 

[jschrantz]

Match is scheduled for 2:00pm.

Good early test, can noodle armed Bo handle a man sized Full 97 ;-)Thinkin so, Q figured it out

 

[jtothemfp]

With Lehigh & Kent State now confirmed (I'm counting Matter's posting of Denny Diehl's newsletter as confirmed), and Roar's frequent sharing of the B1G rotation patterns, which teach us that we're not wrestling Iowa, Minny, Rutgers or Maryland, I've updated a 2019 Schedule Tracking sheet:
- I put the 9 conf meets in yellow; dates are placeholders
- The home/away indications are according to pattern
- I added the Scuffle as a guess, to update the counter
- All of course could get thrown to shyt by delaneybot

So, with all that, we're sitting at 12 out of 16 possible 'event dates' taken. My wishlist for filling, in order:
- Iowa, in a twitter-scheduled circumnavigation of the delaneybot
- NC State, in a home & home to visit their new facilities
- Arizona State
- Lock Haven

Who you guys got?

 

[tabenn]

Match is scheduled for 2:00pm.

SO Roar is BO to 197 a done deal? I thought it was just rumor, and I truly thought it was not true??????

 

[matter7172]

Good early test, can noodle armed Bo handle a man sized Full 97 ;-)Thinkin so, Q figured it out

Ironically, another Kent State 197 involved.

 

[RoarLions1]

SO Roar is BO to 197 a done deal? I thought it was just rumor, and I truly thought it was not true??????

Sorry, not ignoring you...
If I knew, I wouldn't say .
If I didn't know, I wouldn't say .
Lot's of prior discussion about this, and what's going to happen at other weight classes. This should be the best dual meet team PSU has ever had, and not too shabby a tournament team either.

100 days from tomorrow (Tuesday, July 24) is the official start of the dual meet season (Nov. 1).

 

[ClarkstonMark]

Sorry, not ignoring you...
If I knew, I wouldn't say .
If I didn't know, I wouldn't say .
Lot's of prior discussion about this, and what's going to happen at other weight classes. This should be the best dual meet team PSU has ever had, and not too shabby a tournament team either.

100 days from tomorrow (Tuesday, July 24) is the official start of the dual meet season (Nov. 1).

I knew you wouldn't give a definitive answer (which I support), but the bolded statement is intriguing. Makes me think Rasheed is at 184 and Bo at 197 (or vice versa lol)

 

[NoVa Lion]

SO Roar is BO to 197 a done deal? I thought it was just rumor, and I truly thought it was not true??????

I wouldn't even call it a rumor, more like message board speculation. That doesn't mean it won't happen, although I personally don't think it will and that is just more speculation.

 

[tabenn]

Sorry, not ignoring you...
If I knew, I wouldn't say .
If I didn't know, I wouldn't say .
Lot's of prior discussion about this, and what's going to happen at other weight classes. This should be the best dual meet team PSU has ever had, and not too shabby a tournament team either.

100 days from tomorrow (Tuesday, July 24) is the official start of the dual meet season (Nov. 1).

Thanks and I respect that.

 

[El-Jefe]

1/11 at NW.