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Football, the Flag and the Right to Speak Our Minds by Jared Odrick

Obliviax said:
Great label. Seems like you just did what you are protesting other people doing.
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The protest is about unfair treatment of minorities - African Americans in particular - who did not choose their race.

Jingoism is a personal choice and I have not treated those people unfairly. I know the plight of the jingoist has been very difficult throughout history, but I find your comparison to be extreme.
 
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Grant Green said:
The protest is about unfair treatment of minorities - African Americans in particular - who did not choose their race.

Jingoism is a personal choice and I have not treated those people unfairly. I know the plight of the jingoist has been very difficult throughout history, but I find your comparison to be extreme.
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so you are into unfairly labeling, right. So if someone is pro-military, you are good with assuming they are racist, or at least don't support CK? OK, got it.
Dude, a label is a label. Just stop it.
 
I don't care what the players do either way. I don't watch the NFL, but I have had a problem with how overly patriotic projects itself as.
In an obnoxious ugly american type way verging on WWE. I say that as what I consider a very patriotic person who loves this country.
But I think there is a difference between true patriotism, going through the motions and what the NFL does, marketing.

That being said, the problem with the sitting/kneeling during the anthem is that there is no end. What will have to be achieved for them to get their goal? Cops to stop killing innocent people? Ignorant people to no longer be racist? Proper funding for education across all communities? Equal opportunity to everyone despite race or gender? Obviously all of these things must happen but it is equivalent to protesting for "world peace". I think more impact would be made if he donated a years worth of his salary towards achieving these goals. Give money to underfunded schools for instance.

The problem now is that he has painted himself into a corner. What does he do now? What does he achieve.

On his podcast, Malcolm Gladwell talked about a term Generous Orthodoxy which is a theological idea (and a oxymoron) I was reminded of during this whole debate. As Malcolm says "To be orthodox is to be committed to tradition. To be generous to to be open to change. Orthodoxy without generosity leads to blindness. Generosity with out orthodoxy is shallow."

It is futile to protest our institutions, if you don't also show that you love those institutions. And you can truly love the institutions unless you admit that they are flawed and need change.

People are angry because they think that Colin hates the institution. Colin and others are angry because the institution is unwilling to change.
 
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psuro said:
I still don't get all the hullabaloo. I also don't get how this got twisted into an anti-military stance.

A guy kneels during the National Anthem. He has his hat/helmet off, he is not making obscene gestures, he is not talking to his team mates or coaching staff or trainers, he is not walking around behind the bench. He is motionless, looking straight ahead (or maybe turning his head a bit).

That's it.

He never said a bad word about the military, and has even gone so far as to engage in discourse with a former member of the military on this subject matter. He has donated 8.34% of his pre-tax income to charitable outlets.

How many people in the stands at an NFL game even pay attention to the sidelines during the National Anthem? (Before Kapernick's actions?). I would venture to guess not a high percentage.

This is really not that big of a deal. And his salary/income have absolutely NOTHING to do with the situation. None.
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The whiners need to make it about the military, avoiding discussion of the real reason. That is how it works these days. Tangents. See?
 
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GreggK said:
I don't care what the players do either way. I don't watch the NFL, but I have had a problem with how overly patriotic projects itself as.
In an obnoxious ugly american type way verging on WWE. I say that as what I consider a very patriotic person who loves this country.
But I think there is a difference between true patriotism, going through the motions and what the NFL does, marketing.

That being said, the problem with the sitting/kneeling during the anthem is that there is no end. What will have to be achieved for them to get their goal? Cops to stop killing innocent people? Ignorant people to no longer be racist? Proper funding for education across all communities? Equal opportunity to everyone despite race or gender? Obviously all of these things must happen but it is equivalent to protesting for "world peace". I think more impact would be made if he donated a years worth of his salary towards achieving these goals. Give money to underfunded schools for instance.

The problem now is that he has painted himself into a corner. What does he do now? What does he achieve.

On his podcast, Malcolm Gladwell talked about a term Generous Orthodoxy which is a theological idea (and a oxymoron) I was reminded of during this whole debate. As Malcolm says "To be orthodox is to be committed to tradition. To be generous to to be open to change. Orthodoxy without generosity leads to blindness. Generosity with out orthodoxy is shallow."

It is futile to protest our institutions, if you don't also show that you love those institutions. And you can truly love the institutions unless you admit that they are flawed and need change.

People are angry because they think that Colin hates the institution. Colin and others are angry because the institution is unwilling to change.
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^^^ great post and stated much better than my feeble attempts. We now have no standards. Anyone can do anything during the national anthem from protesting a new shopping mall to hunting to support of man/boy lovers. I support CK to say whatever he wants....just don't pollute my time with his time. I want my time too. And if I can't get my time, I'll take my time someplace else.
 
May I share my 2 cents.....I'm so tired of this " well you just don't know what it's like" crap. Let me say this ... You don't know what it's like to leave your family in the dark of night at midnight and go work 300 feet down and then shuttle 3 miles underground as a Coal Miner to earn $12 an hour. Then go to work on weekends mowing yards just so you have enough money to feed your family and " fight" not to take the easy way out by going on welfare. You don't know what it's like to be pulled out of school in the 9th grade to go work along side your father in wet, dirty, dark, and dangerous conditions shoveling coal by hand for 8 consecutive hours every day getting paid 40 cents a ton and knowing you will NEVER have the chance to earn a high school degree let alone a chance for a college scholarship and education. Enough with the " you don't know what it's like" crap! By the way I still and will always stand.
 
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I find this whole "protest" mind numbing. Everybody has a cause, everybody finds some "injustice" that has to be fixed. And I use the word injustice very lightly! There are bad people in this country, those bad people are far and few in between. This country is not a perfect place and it never will be. You'll always have someone that feels that he is being slighted.
 
Like millions of others, I'm a veteran. I don't like disrespect toward the flag, but I also don't like flag waving jingoism- most especially from people who have never spent a day defending the country themselves.

If a demonstration is respectful- and in my opinion, taking a knee is, I've got no problem with it. CK's initial sitting during the anthem WAS disrespectful- but he's since spent time talking with vets, and it seems like he listened.

The NFL, as the employer, can handle this how they wish- but I'd leave it alone.
 
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FLMike said:
May I share my 2 cents.....I'm so tired of this " well you just don't know what it's like" crap. Let me say this ... You don't know what it's like to leave your family in the dark of night at midnight and go work 300 feet down and then shuttle 3 miles underground as a Coal Miner to earn $12 an hour. Then go to work on weekends mowing yards just so you have enough money to feed your family and " fight" not to take the easy way out by going on welfare. You don't know what it's like to be pulled out of school in the 9th grade to go work along side your father in wet, dirty, dark, and dangerous conditions shoveling coal by hand for 8 consecutive hours every day getting paid 40 cents a ton and knowing you will NEVER have the chance to earn a high school degree let alone a chance for a college scholarship and education. Enough with the " you don't know what it's like" crap! By the way I still and will always stand.
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well, this goes back to laws allowing cops to stop anyone for just about any reason. It flies against the founding fathers who didn't want warrantless search and seizure....cops found a way around this (for the most part). I get the problem and sensitivity. On the other hand, crime is down by a large percentage since NYC and now, other cities adopted these policies.

I get and understand CK, et all, concerns. But I don't want every individuals personal feelings polluting entertainment and football. i watch plenty of news and know what is going on. I will funnel my attentions elsewhere. If I can no longer watch sporting events, so be it.
 
Obliviax said:
so you are into unfairly labeling, right. So if someone is pro-military, you are good with assuming they are racist, or at least don't support CK? OK, got it.
Dude, a label is a label. Just stop it.
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Huh? What?
Where did I insinuate anyone pro military is racist?
I'm not unfairly labeling anyone. Referring to someone as jingoist is really no different than calling someone a liberal (or a "godless liberal" as you one stated).

If you think their protest is about labeling, then again, you are not understanding.
 
Grant Green said:
Huh? What?
Where did I insinuate anyone pro military is racist?
I'm not unfairly labeling anyone. Referring to someone as jingoist is really no different than calling someone a liberal (or a "godless liberal" as you one stated).

If you think their protest is about labeling, then again, you are not understanding.
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you unfairly labeled me in that you suggested I didn't support CK's point of view. I just don't support his methods.

Your reverse and clear implication is that if you support the military, you are against CK. Its no different than those who felt CK was not supporting the military by protesting the national anthem.
 
Obliviax said:
you unfairly labeled me in that you suggested I didn't support CK's point of view. I just don't support his methods.

Your reverse and clear implication is that if you support the military, you are against CK. Its no different than those who felt CK was not supporting the military by protesting the national anthem.
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You are confusing different posts. Psuro asked why people are getting so bent out of shape, and I responded that it is due to jingoism.

In a separate post, I said that you have a lack of understanding when you said "when you kneel during the anthem, you say 'all of America sucks'. ."

You are also confusing my implication. Jingoism isn't supporting the military - it's extreme patriotism. You can support the military (see Nitt1300), but realize that kneeling during the national anthem is not crapping on all the troops. So, no, I'm not saying that supporting the military = against CK et al.
 
Grant Green said:
You are confusing different posts. Psuro asked why people are getting so bent out of shape, and I responded that it is due to jingoism.

In a separate post, I said that you have a lack of understanding when you said "when you kneel during the anthem, you say 'all of America sucks'. ."

You are also confusing my implication. Jingoism isn't supporting the military - it's extreme patriotism. You can support the military (see Nitt3000), but realize that kneeling during the national anthem is not crapping on all the troops. So, no, I'm not saying that supporting the military = against CK et al.
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No...i know exactly what you did (or were trying to do). You were trying to shut up someone that doesn't agree with you. You were trying to embarrass them into submission. Jogoism, xenophobe, racist...I understand what you are trying to do. you are trying to limit free speech from someone you don't agree with by labeling them with something that is socially unacceptable. The person you are most fooling, is yourself. You are exactly who you are saying you are against.
 
Obliviax said:
No...i know exactly what you did (or were trying to do). You were trying to shut up someone that doesn't agree with you. You were trying to embarrass them into submission. Jogoism, xenophobe, racist...I understand what you are trying to do. you are trying to limit free speech from someone you don't agree with by labeling them with something that is socially unacceptable. The person you are most fooling, is yourself. You are exactly who you are saying you are against.
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Trying to limit free speech? I'm not trying to shut anyone up. I welcome the debate as I have done throughout this thread.

I expected a better counter than that from you. I think you are so frothed up with anger over this that you aren't thinking clearly.
 
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Kaepernick has just decided to use the national anthem to prepare for the game...he'll be sitting for both.
 
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Grant Green said:
Trying to limit free speech? I'm not trying to shut anyone up. I welcome the debate as I have done throughout this thread.

I expected a better counter than that from you. I think you are so frothed up with anger over this that you aren't thinking clearly.
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I know exactly what you are doing:
  • a Christian? Clearly your are homophobic
  • Want to strengthen immigration? Obviously Xenophobic
  • Want military strength? Obviously jingoistic.
Yeah, I saw where you were coming from. Fact is, a lot of people disagree with CK, both black and white. So get off that high horse and discuss the issue like a real person.
 
Obliviax said:
I know exactly what you are doing:
  • a Christian? Clearly your are homophobic
  • Want to strengthen immigration? Obviously Xenophobic
  • Want military strength? Obviously jingoistic.
Yeah, I saw where you were coming from. Fact is, a lot of people disagree with CK, both black and white. So get off that high horse and discuss the issue like a real person.
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Yeah, I didn't say any of that. You are trying to paint me as intolerant because you really don't have any good response. Again, I welcome the debate like a "real person" (nice attempt at an insult). You are the one trying to make this issue about me.
 
As a small list of great things about our country free to be wrong an free to fail may be two of the best things about the good old USA if they think a few over paid athletes kneeling during our national anthem will change this country well there wrong an they wil fail. Is it not a slap in the face to the black Americans who have gave there lives to defend our country an to change our country to believe they will
 
psuro said:
I still don't get all the hullabaloo. I also don't get how this got twisted into an anti-military stance.

A guy kneels during the National Anthem. He has his hat/helmet off, he is not making obscene gestures, he is not talking to his team mates or coaching staff or trainers, he is not walking around behind the bench. He is motionless, looking straight ahead (or maybe turning his head a bit).

That's it.

He never said a bad word about the military, and has even gone so far as to engage in discourse with a former member of the military on this subject matter. He has donated 8.34% of his pre-tax income to charitable outlets.

How many people in the stands at an NFL game even pay attention to the sidelines during the National Anthem? (Before Kapernick's actions?). I would venture to guess not a high percentage.

This is really not that big of a deal. And his salary/income have absolutely NOTHING to do with the situation. None.
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His actions speak for him. Paying indulgences doesn't excuse his actions.

People in the stands often don't show respect but they are not given a platform with cameras and press conferences.

This says as much about the NFL and its disrespect towards veterans and service members. Too bad we don't have a president with balls who would order the military not to participate in NFL events and their hallow support of patriotism.
 
Simple solution.

Stop playing the national anthem at sporting events. There's absolutely no logical reason for making people stand and honor the flag/country to begin with. We don't do it at any other public forms of entertainment, so why do it at sporting competitions? It's a dated tradition that's, quite frankly, long outlived any usefulness.
 
I don't deny people the right to protest or bring attention to causes and injustices. I don't understand why they think they can do it while on the job. I know my employer would not allow me to take up my causes on their dime. I'm there to do a job. Not sure why NFL owners tolerate it.

Saw an article on Philly.com about the diocese of Camden NJ issuing a statement that any players or coaches who do not stand during the national anthem before any sporting events will be suspended for several games.
 
Obliviax said:
I know exactly what you are doing:
  • a Christian? Clearly your are homophobic
  • Want to strengthen immigration? Obviously Xenophobic
  • Want military strength? Obviously jingoistic.
Yeah, I saw where you were coming from. Fact is, a lot of people disagree with CK, both black and white. So get off that high horse and discuss the issue like a real person.
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That's the trifecta for Hillary's basket of deplorables.
 
lionville said:
I don't deny people the right to protest or bring attention to causes and injustices. I don't understand why they think they can do it while on the job. I know my employer would not allow me to take up my causes on their dime. I'm there to do a job. Not sure why NFL owners tolerate it.

Saw an article on Philly.com about the diocese of Camden NJ issuing a statement that any players or coaches who do not stand during the national anthem before any sporting events will be suspended for several games.
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The diocese of Camden? Really? Other than Camden Catholic HS they don't have much of "congregation"
 
psuro said:
The diocese of Camden? Really? Other than Camden Catholic HS they don't have much of "congregation"
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Paul VI, Gloucester Catholic, St. JOe's Hammonton, St. James Carney's Point, St. AUgustine,
Bishop Eustace, Wildwood Catholic, Holy Spirit.

I was confusing the county with the diocese which you may have also.
 
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psuro said:
I remember when Eustace was top notch in most sports
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You're much younger than me. They sucked at everything until Don Casey came along and Billy Melchionni (great guy btw, as are his brothers Gary and Tommy -- I don't know Bob) showed up. They built off their basketball success and Father Whatshisname, the principal who took over later on, was a sports guy. We used a pejorative word to describe Eustace guys. It rhymes with sissy:).
 
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Marylovesthelions said:
People pay $500 to bring their family to a game. They have a right to be free from political statements that denigrate them, their loved ones or thei country. The league must step in and protect the fans v
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Mary.... I think the fans have the ability to protect themselves. Don't like it? Keep your $500 in your pocket and watch on TV. I don't like these protests. I think they are weak. When they quit playing games (for millions) and spend their time working for social justice, I'll take them seriously. I believe in their right to protest just as I believe in my right to ignore them or think anything I want about them.
 
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Marylovesthelions said:
People pay $500 to bring their family to a game. They have a right to be free from political statements that denigrate them, their loved ones or thei country. The league must step in and protect the fans v
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"Protect the fans"?
Please explain the harm that is done to your family from a man engaging in a peaceful, silent protest.
I cannot disagree more.
 
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Brilliant essay from Mr. Odrick! You have done Penn State proud.

When Kapernick engages in a peaceful, silent protest he is not disrespecting our flag, nation or military. In fact, it's quite the opposite. He is exercising a most American value, that of Freedom of Speech, and thereby honoring our American values by being an engaged & conscientious citizen.

The old "love it or leave it" mantra was always ludicrous. One protests to raise discussion on a topic that needs increased awareness. It is an act of love of country, not disrespect. Apathy, indifference, racism, discrimination, xenophobia, misogyny and bigotry, these are disrespectful of our flag, nation and military because they are anathemic to our country's values.
 
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NittanyChris said:
Brilliant essay from Mr. Odrick! You have done Penn State proud.

When Kapernick engages in a peaceful, silent protest he is not disrespecting our flag, nation or military. In fact, it's quite the opposite. He is exercising a most American value, that of Freedom of Speech, and thereby honoring our American values by being an engaged & conscientious citizen.

The old "love it or leave it" mantra was always ludicrous. One protests to raise discussion on a topic that needs increased awareness. It is an act of love of country, not disrespect. Apathy, indifference, racism, discrimination, xenophobia, misogyny and bigotry, these are disrespectful of our flag, nation and military because they are anathemic to our country's values.
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He is disrespecting veterans and trying to spin it the other way is simply making an excuse for poor behavior.

It may not be his intent to disrespect vets, but he is doing so none the less.
 
lein said:
He is disrespecting veterans and trying to spin it the other way is simply making an excuse for poor behavior.

It may not be his intent to disrespect vets, but he is doing so none the less.
Click to expand...

Please elaborate as to exactly how he is disrespecting veterans. Thank you.
 
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