For our friends in The UK...
- Thread starter ericstratton-rushchairman
- Start date
The Chicago Cook County vote still being sought-out by both sides.....similar to Wake Island, the issue is in doubt!
Watching the BBC is almost comical but kind of sad as well there is an utter meltdown by reporters and some of their politicians. None of the BBC heavyweights or main politicians interviewed have much faith in their country or people. At least 2 have almost cried on air for being in such despair over the result.
Craziness.
I contacted 2 friends that live in the UK last week to get their thoughts. Both thought the UK would vote to remain.
Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay. There are already rumblings of them wanting a new referendum on whether to stay in the UK.
Northern Ireland also voted to stay (not as overwhelmingly as Scotland). Might this move the North toward uniting with the Republic? Probably not, as there are still be barriers. However, for quite some time there has been free movement across the border, and a large number of Northerners like to vacation in the Republic. Passports, border crossings, etc. may be in the future, which will not please a lot of Northerners. Sinn Fein has already released a statement that the vote results show that England has forfeited any mandate to represent interests in Northern Ireland.
France businesses and leaders are probably laughing their asses off. A number of jobs in the UK may be heading to France from companies that need to have operations in the EU.
The Asian markets are plunging on news of the results.
David Cameron may lose his prime minister position.
To actually exit the EU it may take years, but today's vote may cause quite a few changes.
I contacted 2 friends that live in the UK last week to get their thoughts. Both thought the UK would vote to remain.
Scotland voted overwhelmingly to stay. There are already rumblings of them wanting a new referendum on whether to stay in the UK.
Northern Ireland also voted to stay (not as overwhelmingly as Scotland). Might this move the North toward uniting with the Republic? Probably not, as there are still be barriers. However, for quite some time there has been free movement across the border, and a large number of Northerners like to vacation in the Republic. Passports, border crossings, etc. may be in the future, which will not please a lot of Northerners. Sinn Fein has already released a statement that the vote results show that England has forfeited any mandate to represent interests in Northern Ireland.
France businesses and leaders are probably laughing their asses off. A number of jobs in the UK may be heading to France from companies that need to have operations in the EU.
The Asian markets are plunging on news of the results.
David Cameron may lose his prime minister position.
To actually exit the EU it may take years, but today's vote may cause quite a few changes.
They've already said there will be free movement across the Irish border with NI no matter the result. Sinn Fein and the nationalist community were strongly in favor of the EU. The Protestant groups were more split so Adam's statements aren't surprising and really no different than how he felt a year ago. There's no way in hell the NI Protestant parties use this to unite Ireland- that has never been their goal (just the opposite actually).
The markets will be volatile for a while but will reset after the newness of the decision wears off IMO.
As for France- they won't be laughing. The city of London isn't losing its financial center of power. The French, Dutch and Italians will be worrying about calls for them to have referendums (which have been going on for a while but ignored by those in power). The French presidential election is next year and Italy's the year after IIRC. I expect Junker and Tusk to give a very stern speech and reprimand to Britain in a few hours trying to prevent contagion of referendums.
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too have been dialed into this with coworkers and friends. This issue is splitting many families along generational lines. A few have compared it to trump movement here but I think it's more along lines of sanders rhetoric. This seems to be a working class revolt more than anything.
The EU is a perfect example that instead of the strong raising up the weak ("a rising tide raises all boats'), instead what we typically see is that the weak pull down the strong to a lower level. A strong country like Britain, had to open their doors and take on all the negatives from the weak sisters of the EU. For example, if someone from say Hungary wanted to just come over and have same rights in England, all they had to do was come into England with their EU card, and bam they were entitled to schools, economy, jobs, welfare, medical .... as a true native of the UK. In England the schools went downhill, welfare increased, taxes raised, unemployment increased, crime increased....
Same "revolt" will eventually happen here if we continue down the road of "open borders". Helping others and the dis-advantaged sounds nice. Everyone is sympathetic and no one likes to see others struggle. But at what point do people say enough?? When taxes reach 50...60...70% ? When crime becomes uncontrollable ? When schools are over-crowded and the educational system becomes bloated with too many kids ? When unemployment sky-rockets?
Same "revolt" will eventually happen here if we continue down the road of "open borders". Helping others and the dis-advantaged sounds nice. Everyone is sympathetic and no one likes to see others struggle. But at what point do people say enough?? When taxes reach 50...60...70% ? When crime becomes uncontrollable ? When schools are over-crowded and the educational system becomes bloated with too many kids ? When unemployment sky-rockets?
It seems to me that if not for the assassination of the MP last week then the Leaves may have gotten more votes.
One thing that bothers me is the whole idea of having a referendum. That's what Parliament is for. There are surely limits on how and when referendums can be used so, without knowing these limits, I'm not in much of a position to continue this argument, but in general the idea of referendums make me leery.
One thing that bothers me is the whole idea of having a referendum. That's what Parliament is for. There are surely limits on how and when referendums can be used so, without knowing these limits, I'm not in much of a position to continue this argument, but in general the idea of referendums make me leery.
They have shot themselves in the foot.
Shares and pound plunge on Leave vote
http://www.bbc.com/news/business-36611512
They went with the wrong recommendation, from the usual suspects.
I'm thinking that the dominant reason is immigration. I've read up on this over the years and they have significant issues with Muslim extremism, to a far greater extent than what we have here. They have some very bad people there. These issues predate EU but there you have it. I'm no expert, though.
How is dropping from the EU going to change immigration. I am not up on EU laws, but that seems like a in country issue. It's like us dropping from NATO cause we have Mexicans here.
It will be interesting to see how this impacts UK military prowess and their relationship with other EU members and the US.
It will be interesting to see how this impacts UK military prowess and their relationship with other EU members and the US.
I have friends in England. I talked with some of them this morning. They told me that the Brexit vote was all about immigration and open borders. The common folk in England are tired of the huge number of immigrants that come to England and instantly get on the public dole. Most of them are Muslims and crime is soaring. The Brexit vote was a way for the common people in England to strike out against open borders.
Im still not understanding how the EU was responsible for UK open borders and immigrant issue. How is leaving EU going to solve this? It's not like the immigrants are now just going to leave.
Seems like this is going to cause more serious issue for UK on the economic front in the long run.
I totally get the EU sentiment in Great Britain. There were several serious issues that were being fumbled and it was unacceptable but this outcome is really bad for the EU and the rest of the world.
France will be hurt the MOST by this decision. If they are laughing they are morons.
Check the stats BEFORE the EU and AFTER the EU. In every major statistic of how a country can be measured: jobs, economy, healthcare, education, crime, unemployment ..... Things got worse for the UK after years in the EU.
And I know the 'left' and the media elite do not like to report this, but the other very real driving force as to why regular ordinary UK citizens wanted to pass this now was the fear of the Syrian refugees infiltrating their country. Germany just let in like 1 million +, and they plan on letting in more. Once Germany lets them in, then they become citizens with an EU Card, which means they can simply cross over into the UK and now all those Syrian refugees are equal citizens of the UK. I know it sounds terrible and it sounds mean and it sounds racist and discriminatory, but that fear was a driving force.
Brexit was a way for the common citizen in England to strike out against their government which has allowed huge numbers of Muslim immigrants to enter England. It may not totally make sense, but the Brexit vote was viewed as a way to strike out at the government.
It's hard to stop or reverse what's already been done. But they can stop future infiltration / immigration.
Agree. This does not hurt the UK. They are now free to negotiate trade deals independently without the drag done of the poor Eastern Euro countries dragging them down. The UK has the world's 5th largest market. Does anyone seriously think that the US, China, Japan, Russia, Mexico .... are going to stop doing business with the world's 5th largest market, because now they are independent and not associated with the likes of Eastern Euro countries??
My understanding is that the open boarders were a requirement of the EU policies. Right, they can't undo what has been done (i.e. the immigration that has already happened), but they can stop any further inflow in it's tracks.
They also may be able to send back to their home countries immigrants that are already there, but that have committed crimes or other offenses, that they may not have under EU law. We'll see.
To put it as simply as I can, they don't see themselves as Europeans.
HA! People thought me mad when I hoarded Italian Lira. Who's laughing now???
Immigration is a big part of it. They want the ability to put tighter restrictions on immigration than the EU allows. There are other things, too. The big picture is that the <s>Brits</s> English do not see themselves as Europeans.
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That's one reason we in the US have a republic and not a "true" democracy. Our founding fathers feared that kind of democracy too. California has a lot of this rule by referendum. I'm not sure it's good for them.
Immigration was only part of it. People in the UK were sick of paying taxes for a second government in Brussels that was making tens of thousands of laws and regulation that Britain had to follow. I'm anything but a conservative but the EU strikes me as way too many layers of government. And an argument for the EU as an engine of economic growth -- how's it working out in France, Italy, Spain and Greece right now?
As we've seen in the U.S. it is possible to have free trade agreements without setting up another layer of goverment. It's also possible to have free trade agreements while maintaining separate currencies. Merging your currency has catastrophic effect when you have a recession/depression -- as Italy and Spain have found out -- you can't use the natural currency devaluation to get you out of the hole.
A lot of people think the EU has got to be reconstituted anyway -- it just hasn't worked. Unemployment in Spain is STILL over 20 percent I think.
So probably Brexit is going to be some short term pain (the British will have to pay more for French wine, perhaps) but in the long run maybe bring about needed reformulation of the EU charter. Because what Britain gets, France, Italy and Spain are also going to want.
As we've seen in the U.S. it is possible to have free trade agreements without setting up another layer of goverment. It's also possible to have free trade agreements while maintaining separate currencies. Merging your currency has catastrophic effect when you have a recession/depression -- as Italy and Spain have found out -- you can't use the natural currency devaluation to get you out of the hole.
A lot of people think the EU has got to be reconstituted anyway -- it just hasn't worked. Unemployment in Spain is STILL over 20 percent I think.
So probably Brexit is going to be some short term pain (the British will have to pay more for French wine, perhaps) but in the long run maybe bring about needed reformulation of the EU charter. Because what Britain gets, France, Italy and Spain are also going to want.
UK is not unlike the USA these days. One party represents the establishment, the other party represents the poor. Both get a lot of government help (the rich through political donations, the poor through vote numbers). Meanwhile, the middle class is getting killed. This is a revolution. it may be a bad move, over the next few years, but the message has been sent.
The elites (multi-national corporations, government officials, and the press who do their work) have just seen what it means when they quit listening. They all benefit from the EU, pored millions into the vote, and lost. Now, they are reaping what their "doom and gloom" messaging sowed.
Money will have its way. But they had to play the game, try to scare the bejeezus out of everyone. Over the next few months, things will normalize and their message will be "hey, its not so bad after all!" its probably a great time to buy some stocks and dump it before they announce how they are going to unravel this thing (if they do).
The governments have been pushing globalization at break neck speed. Perhaps it is inevitable. But they just got taught a big lesson, as people who think too highly of themselves have to do from time to time.
US is, perhaps, one or two election cycles behind.
The elites (multi-national corporations, government officials, and the press who do their work) have just seen what it means when they quit listening. They all benefit from the EU, pored millions into the vote, and lost. Now, they are reaping what their "doom and gloom" messaging sowed.
Money will have its way. But they had to play the game, try to scare the bejeezus out of everyone. Over the next few months, things will normalize and their message will be "hey, its not so bad after all!" its probably a great time to buy some stocks and dump it before they announce how they are going to unravel this thing (if they do).
The governments have been pushing globalization at break neck speed. Perhaps it is inevitable. But they just got taught a big lesson, as people who think too highly of themselves have to do from time to time.
US is, perhaps, one or two election cycles behind.
The English don't. Scotland and Northern Ireland voted differently. I'm expecting a breakup of the U.K. in the next 5 years--with both considering joining the EU. If not sooner. I *don't* predict that Northern Ireland and the Republic will merge, however--not right away, anyway. It's a little different than the German situation was.
Uh, in 1787, how would everyone vote? I think that the only way to travel via horse and carriage had more to do with it. That, and the threat from Indians.
Democracy isn't perfect. But, people should and ought to be allowed to set their own course. Fascism is what you are suggesting.
