Please try to think beyond 24 hours. This vote was about the long view, not the value of the pound on 6/24/2016.
For our friends in The UK...
- Thread starter ericstratton-rushchairman
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I don't know if overstepped its bounds is quite the right wording. The EU was conceived by some very idealistic people and the idea was that to a large degree it would eventually replace national governments. Britain never fully bought into that in the first place -- that's why they kept the pound.
The best thing the EU has done is create incredible cool opportunities for bright, educated young people. Our last visit to Italy we met a kid from Portugul who speaks 6 languages and had gotten to work and live in Paris, Milan, Rome and Frankfurt. Had a girlfriend in Bologna and was commuting (via bullet train) to Zurich every week. He just loved his life. I'm sure a lot of dynamic businesses have benefited from the free flow of talent across national borders.
The worst thing is that currency union contradiction I explained above. The second worst thing is that Brussels is bloated and out of touch. Which may be an inevitable consequence of supra-national government. It's just too far removed from ordinary people for there to be any real accountability. So when you have a chance at a referendum vote like this, a lot of people are angry enough to pull the plug.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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There are also thousands of Brits living in EU countries whose lives will be turned upside down; no longer will they have the benefits provided citizens of other EU countries (healthcare, unemployment benefits, etc.). I saw an article where some 30,000 Brits are claiming unemployment benefits in other EU countries - guess it's time to head home, eh?
Very good post. I agree. However, in my experience with "very idealistic people" is that they often miss operational realities. After all, one must keep the wheels on the bus to get to the destination. EU became corrupted with power and money. They stepped beyond what was their fair charter. They were becoming less of a "union" and creating their own "government." People who were no longer being served became the majority, instead of the minority. As such, they voted out. So be it.
You really think a supremely talented young individual like that won't find those opportunities without a supra-national govt? Or more precisely those opportunities wouldn't be able find him without the EU?
How many have gone the other way? I know this is going to sound harsh but 30K people is anecdotal.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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So it's equal and the whole things a wash anyway. Again short term pain for long term sovereignty.
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anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
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Link to article with more nuanced analysis about how this fits into a bigger immigration/freedom of movement issue. I'm not saying this is good or bad either way - here's an excerpt:
The data on those receiving unemployment benefit across the EU is just one small snapshot of the immigration and free movement issue. The different countries’ welfare systems vary hugely, complicating efforts at comparison. The payouts offer an approximate equivalent enabling rough comparisons.
According to government figures, there are 2.7 million EU nationals in Britain and 1.3 million UK citizens living elsewhere in the EU.
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/jan/19/-sp-thousands-britons-claim-benefits-eu
It always boggles my mind when people think moving around mainland Europe is a big deal. If you think of the different countries of Europe as equivalent to states here in the US (Alaska & Hawaii included), and realize that the US is more than TWO times the land mass of Europe.
Its like saying a kid has an opportunity to work in Boston, Chicago, NYC & DC here in the US.
Europe is a diverse region because of its different cultures. The US is not AS diverse, but we do have diversity of culture here as well.
Having the EU does allow for more ease of travel between countries, like we can between states. But since these are independent countries, they always don't have a desire to share the same culture or rules of a neighboring country. Independence & autonomy is a good thing!
So with UK and now possibly France. How long before Russia makes a move in Europe. Putin seems like a guy who would take advantage and UK and France would be at their weakest.
Poland got to be nervous.
Poland got to be nervous.
And that is exactly the kind of thing that can be handled. All the companies who hired those Brits do not want to lose those skilled workers. Britain will still have very close ties to Europe culturally, socially and economically. It just won't be the EU as its now constituted. I don't see how the EU will have the clout to take a hard line on Britain because it will just hurt the EU to do it. the EU needs to stay closely integrated with Britain. They just won't be able to dictate policy to Britain from Brussels. That is over.
What kind of "move?" No way Russia adopts or joins the EU, Putin wouldn't give up the power. Military? No way.
Totally agree.
But this is just a small part of the problem. This is going on worldwide: USA, Brazil, etc. There is a huge change coming. It may be slow, it may be fast. It may be good, or it could be bad.
IMHO, leadership has tried to stabilize the world via globalization. Multi-nationals and politicians love the idea. And, it does have benefits. On the other hand, globalization creates bureaucracies and people getting left behind. In a worldwide order, companies can move plants to Mexico, China and Malaysia. Good for them and good for those countries. Problem is, it hurts the people in the previous host country. Those people get marginalized. They don't like it.
Its like a sinusoidal wave. We have the peaks and troughs. But they get "clipped" in globalization. The trough dwellers love it. Those that get clipped, not so much. Its a balancing act and the EU community let it get too far out of whack.
How cool would it be if Scotland leaves the UK and joins the EU, and they maybe Northern Ireland ??
That would be awesome.
Despite everyone talking about this, I do not believe Scotland or Northern Ireland can leave the UK. It just isn't truly possible. This is one "country", the UK. Not a group of "countries".
I put country in quotes because under their system each is considered a country. However in reality they are not in so much as we would define them.
One capital. One parliment. One Queen.
The Free Scotland idea was clever and fun, but not a reality.
LdN
I thought Scotland only recently voted to stay in the UK. So that vote was bogus? And had they voted to leave they would have been invaded again by the English ?
Agree. UK should have had more caution before they agreed to enter the EU, and thought ahead to all of the unintended consequences that have surfaced over the years.....
And the Scottish voters may also want to take your advice.
It was a real vote but likely would have never been accomplished.
England never left Scotland. There would be no need to invade. England controls the military in Scotland.
LdN
He has no idea what he's talking about and spouts out random BS.
Nicola Sturgeon (First Minister of Scotland) said it was" democratically unacceptable" that Scotland faced the prospect of being taken out of the EU against its will. She said the Scottish government would begin preparing legislation to enable another independence vote.
Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38%.
Sounds to me like this is REAL and quite frankly the UK is powerless to stop it. In short, The UK has already given Scotland the ability to leave. Don't know if Northern Ireland has the same "rights"?
Just very interesting. While the globalization of economies overall for MOST people has been good (slower developing countries) it has not been kind to the more industrialized countries like the UK and US. But it has been a massive boon to the wealthy
France, Germany and to some extent Italy have been "tweeners".
Nicola Sturgeon (First Minister of Scotland) said it was" democratically unacceptable" that Scotland faced the prospect of being taken out of the EU against its will. She said the Scottish government would begin preparing legislation to enable another independence vote.
Scotland voted in favour of the UK staying in the EU by 62% to 38%.
Sounds to me like this is REAL and quite frankly the UK is powerless to stop it. In short, The UK has already given Scotland the ability to leave. Don't know if Northern Ireland has the same "rights"?
Just very interesting. While the globalization of economies overall for MOST people has been good (slower developing countries) it has not been kind to the more industrialized countries like the UK and US. But it has been a massive boon to the wealthy
Nicola is wrong and stupid.
The Scotland Vote to remain in the EU AS A PART OF THE UK is not the same as Scotland LEAVING THE UK or SCOTLAND REMAINING PART OF THE EU ON ITS OWN.
Those are completely different votes.
AS PART OF THE UK the districts in Scotland voted to remain in the EU. Big deal. The remain people lost.
That's what it means to be part of the UK.
One would think a politician would understand that.
LdN
Well, for what it is worth Scotland has faired very well within the EU. I can understand their interest in continuing such. Quite candidly all of this and ALL of our "voting" demonstrates the danger Democracy creates. BUT in the very near future Democracy will work (waiting on Genetic Engineering to kick in) !!!
?????
Seriously, what planet......
The came darn tootin' close to leaving in the not very distant past. Is that your RWNJ "memory" you are using there?
Fortunately we live in an age where these things can be handled through free elections rather than bloody wars. Large nations are no longer necessarily for defense and trade in the way that they were 100 or 200 years ago. Ireland works fine as an independent country -- so would Scotland and Wales. Scandinavia is one of the wealthiest places in the world with small independent nations.
I suspect if Texas secession made it to referendum, it would have a good chance of passage. A referendum in the rest of the country to kick Texas out of the U.S. would have a decent chance of passage as well. It might be a win-win.
Can we vote for Texas to leave the United States? Call it "Texit." Sometimes you add by subtracting.
Seriously? TX has kicked ass. Their economy is rolling, and has right through the current energy dip.
For my part, I am not going to celebrate events that make Putin happy. Just sayin'.
Not to overstate but I suspect in the immediate aftermath of the Boston Tea Party people said we shot oyrselves in the foot because we still "depended" on England. Chalk one up for individual liberty today!
No he is not. The difference in a democratic republic is the protection of the rights of minorites. Otherwise we could strike up a referendum to expel all humanists from our shores.
Texas is a net drain on the federal treasury. If you live in New York or California or New Jersey, you are probably sending thousands of dollars to Texas every year, you just don't know it. Without federal spending, Texas and most of the deep south would be an economic basket case. That's the irony -- those southern politicians always demanding to get the federal government out of their lives -- careful what they wish for.
Texas is a big net drain on the federal treasury. Without federal spending, Tex and most of the deep south would be an economic basket case. Texas should at very least send thank-you letters to California and New York every year for the truckloads of taxpayer dollars that are shipped south.
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/05/opinion/lone-star-stumble.html
And remember that the Longhorns were crowned national champions in 1969. Penn State would have dropped them like a bad habit.
And remember that the Longhorns were crowned national champions in 1969. Penn State would have dropped them like a bad habit.
