Generational talents
- Thread starter tullfan68
- Start date
He is absolutely generational. 2 losses as a true freshman doesn't change that. He has an Olympic Gold, 2 NCAA titles at age 24.
And if you watch him wrestle... I mean. yeah. At heavyweight he can do things we've never seen.
Wasn't Snyder called generational 10 years earlier. Can it be generational if it happens every 10 years?
... and no, I don't consider Gable generational. A great wrestler? Absolutely. A generational wrestler is a Dan Gable or a Cael Sanderson. A super elite guy that transformed the sport. We lessen generational wrestlers by calling non-generational wrestlers generational.
Last edited:
I feel like Steveson could have been generational talent had he chosen to. Instead, he chose to act in the WWE and play NFL football. He walked away from the sport. Had he continued to refine his craft and put in the work, he may very well be in the conversation.
I get what you're saying. But we truly did have this glut of generational talent hit:
Spencer, Kyle and Gable. Which. I get it - seems like a lot to be calling that many people generational. I think a lot of it will depend on how they finish their careers.
Spencer absolutely was a generational talent - injuries hampered someone who is the greatest pure TALENT. We've seen at the lightweights.
Snyder - absolutely generational. Won the Olympics while in college, beat a guy who could turn out to be the greatest FS wrestler of all time (give me Saitiev for the time being). What he did at heavyweight and then on the world stage at his age had never been done in the US.
Gable - again. generational. He was fat as a freshman, and what, 1 second of overtime and its possible Gable beats Cassar in overtime. Again - pure talent, ability to just make everyone look like they are leagues away? Dude is absolutely the greatest pure talent at heavyweight
We'll look back at one of these guys being "generational" - and if Gable continues this run through 2028 with the level of domination he's shown thus far, I think we'll consider him that guy.
Cael and Dan Gable were generational talents. I'm not sure that any of the guys you mentioned are at the same level.
I guess our definitions of generational are different. Absolutely none of those guys sniff generational. As for best lightweight pure TALENT, Cary Kolat says HI.
What in your opinion, would a generational talent need to have or have done to be in that category
Not necessarily check a few boxes. You know when you see it.
There have been many 2, 3, and 4 time champions, with some even receiving international acclaim. Are they all generational? If so, then we have had a generational talent every other year, and that is not what generational is supposed to mean. To me, generational is for the very highest pinnacle of a sport. A name that is synonymous with the sport in a particular era. Like Tiger and Jack in golf. Like Wilt and MJ in basketball. They elevated their sports. Just like Dan Gable and Cael have done.
"Generational talents": Here is my list
Cael Sanderson
Dan Gable
Wade Schalles
Gene Mills
Randy Lewis
Cael Sanderson
Dan Gable
Wade Schalles
Gene Mills
Randy Lewis
Generational talent? Kind of a broad term. From an athlete's perspective we are talking every 4 or 5 years, maybe up to 8 years to account for post grad successes. In that case Snyder and Stevenson are generational talents. So is Taylor, Dake, Brooks and some others.
From a fan's perspective, Gable and Sanderson moved the needle big-time and over multiple gerenerations changed everything.
From a fan's perspective, Gable and Sanderson moved the needle big-time and over multiple gerenerations changed everything.
Here are the stats for 3+ time champions within the past 10 years. I'm sure I missed a few but am busy. Gable Steveson is only a two timer, but we will include him since his name was mentioned.
SL 98-6 3-firsts, 1-sixth 82% bonus rate
GS 86-2 2-firsts, 1-third 74%
KS 75-5 3-firsts, 1-second 63%
ZR 125-3 3-firsts, 1-fifth 76%
AB 89-3 4-firsts 65%
CS 93-4 4-firsts 57%
BN 131-5 3-firsts, 1-second 74%
JN 129-4 3-firsts, 1-second 84%
I can't go further back, and I only used PSU guys within the last 10 years with 3+ titles. I don't see anything generational. All eight were great wrestlers with different skill sets, but to me, none were "generational". I believe we are confusing "great talent" with '"transformative". Who among those eight have elevated the sport in the public eye long term? My definition includes an aspect of coaching that none of these guys yet have. One of these may pop out in the next decade or two and become generational. Maybe DT is already on that path.
Last edited:
Honestly, both Gable and Spencer were labeled generational before they ever stepped on a collegiate mat.
People throw around things like 'the greatest' in every sport, far too often, and 'generational' in wrestling is not so different.
At the end of their NCAA tenures their accomplishments pulled them back into quite a large pool of "elite" talent, but sorry bro neither delivered on the generational moniker. Beyond the eye test, neither delivered on the very best in a "couple of decades" results.
Spencer was pinned twice for christ's sake, and had what 6 loses?
Ed, Zain, Bo, Jason, Carter, & Aaron all leave Spencer in the dust by a good distance statistically in several categories and we have some guys on the team today that may do the same once all is said and done.
Today's Gable is the best heavy I have seen in some time, but he lost twice to the same guy in the same year. A guy who wasn't even a starter in other years, let's alone a multi time champ. Jason lost twice to a guy who would have been a 4xer, if that guy hadn't run into two multi time PSU champs. Most of our other 3xer greats all have similar' within a whisker from being a 4xer stories.
Likewise, including freestyle results in the justification, alters the argument, or at least muddies the waters further IMO.
To me Gable is in that category of the ones who had a chance to be one of the greatest ever but unfortunately squandered it a bit due to some poor choices, while also losing a big match(s) he probably shouldn't have, or shouldn't have if he was to earn the title you want to assign. How great would have Aaron Pico been had he not chosen to .. could Chance Marsteller have been a 4xer if he had stayed at PSU, kept his nose clean, and Bo gone somewhere else? Probably not, but as a senior in highschool he was branded generational too.
If you want generational, my list has guys like:
John
Paul
George
Ringo
;-)
People throw around things like 'the greatest' in every sport, far too often, and 'generational' in wrestling is not so different.
At the end of their NCAA tenures their accomplishments pulled them back into quite a large pool of "elite" talent, but sorry bro neither delivered on the generational moniker. Beyond the eye test, neither delivered on the very best in a "couple of decades" results.
Spencer was pinned twice for christ's sake, and had what 6 loses?
Ed, Zain, Bo, Jason, Carter, & Aaron all leave Spencer in the dust by a good distance statistically in several categories and we have some guys on the team today that may do the same once all is said and done.
Today's Gable is the best heavy I have seen in some time, but he lost twice to the same guy in the same year. A guy who wasn't even a starter in other years, let's alone a multi time champ. Jason lost twice to a guy who would have been a 4xer, if that guy hadn't run into two multi time PSU champs. Most of our other 3xer greats all have similar' within a whisker from being a 4xer stories.
Likewise, including freestyle results in the justification, alters the argument, or at least muddies the waters further IMO.
To me Gable is in that category of the ones who had a chance to be one of the greatest ever but unfortunately squandered it a bit due to some poor choices, while also losing a big match(s) he probably shouldn't have, or shouldn't have if he was to earn the title you want to assign. How great would have Aaron Pico been had he not chosen to .. could Chance Marsteller have been a 4xer if he had stayed at PSU, kept his nose clean, and Bo gone somewhere else? Probably not, but as a senior in highschool he was branded generational too.
If you want generational, my list has guys like:
John
Paul
George
Ringo
;-)
Last edited:
This is always an interesting topic but an unwinnable argument. Much like the GOAT talk in wrestling or any other sport where subjective perception and lack of universally accepted criteria are the debate moderators.
One thing you often see in these debates though is nostalgia bias. People tend to elevate the pedestal of past greats and minimize the standing of current greats. Meanwhile, the younger guys are left feeling like Rodney Dangerfield until enough time passes that they benefit from nostalgia bias.
One thing you often see in these debates though is nostalgia bias. People tend to elevate the pedestal of past greats and minimize the standing of current greats. Meanwhile, the younger guys are left feeling like Rodney Dangerfield until enough time passes that they benefit from nostalgia bias.
Always appreciate the boys, but have always prefered Mick, Ronnie, Keith and Charlie.
Dan Hodge? Carlton Haselrig-6X NCAA champ,? Gray Simons-3X NCAA champ, 4XNAIA CHAMP, 2X Olympian?
Last edited:
Here'a the case for one "generational" wrestler:
If you're the only one in 20+ years with 3 consecutive undefeated seasons, you might be generational.
By the stats, Jason Nolf was the most generational in the last 10 years, and I still wouldn't call him generational. It's that IT thing. Larry Bird and Magic Johnson were all time greats, but they weren't generational like MJ. In wrestling, Dan Gable took the sport to another level. Cael has now taken it to another level. Who else has impacted wrestling to a high degree like that?
All I know is, the group on the generational list must be less than the total usernames for JohnstownSteel. Can we at least agree to that? So less than 48?
All I know is, the group on the generational list must be less than the total usernames for JohnstownSteel. Can we at least agree to that? So less than 48?
Possibly. Zain merits it as much as anyone. I'd rather wrestler Gabe or Spencer than Zain. Wouldn't Nolf be in that category as well if not for the knee forfeit?
Looking back, there was a good chance that Zain would have been an undefeated 4-timer if he had redshirted.
Babe Ruth = generational talent
Wayne Gretzky = generational talent
Jordan = generational talent
Carl Sanderson = generational talent.
Throwing the term around with decade greats cheapens the term.
To your point it is sometimes a timing thing. The Bird/Magic was at a time when they came in a really brought the NBA to forefront. They also coincided with cable TV sports really taking off. I remember watching NBA Championship series on tape delay.
Who has really elevated NCAA wrestling to a point where they will be known to all outside of their sport? There aren't many.
Baseball there have been many but almost everybody knows Babe Ruth. Football is the same, but you can say everyone knows Tom Brady. Everyone knows Wayne Gretzky. Golf has Tiger and Jack for sure.
I don't know about wrestling.
I think everyone has made extremely good points. The only thing that people are disagreeing on is their own definition of generational. This is one of those Mount Rushmore arguments. Take out the term generational, and I think everyone agrees.
If Carter wins his 5th, some will consider him generational since its never been done before (5 D1).
To me, it's not just about stats, placings, awards, etc. Guys not named Cael Sanderson lose matches. To me, I put guys in categories based on my own eye test. Gable is in that top tier of talent. His athleticism at his weight is extremely rare. Cassar had his number, and I'm glad he did. Cassar also posed a problem not many other could, he was left handed, and a very good wrestler. If you think that doesn't pose a problem, ask Kollin Moore.
Spencer is also in that tier, along with Jason Nolf, and David Taylor These are guys you watch wrestle and wonder how they're able to do the things they do.
Zain, while being one of the most dominant guys, was an extremely strong, and fundamental wrestler. It feels weird to me not putting a 3x champ and undefeated in those 3 seasons in that tier, but I just don't. I don't even put AB in that tier, who was a 4xer.
I'm sure if I sat down and thought more about it I could come up with my own qualifications for tiers, but like stated above, this is a conversation with no right answer.
The only right answer is that the majority of the recent and future greats, are in blue and white.
If Carter wins his 5th, some will consider him generational since its never been done before (5 D1).
To me, it's not just about stats, placings, awards, etc. Guys not named Cael Sanderson lose matches. To me, I put guys in categories based on my own eye test. Gable is in that top tier of talent. His athleticism at his weight is extremely rare. Cassar had his number, and I'm glad he did. Cassar also posed a problem not many other could, he was left handed, and a very good wrestler. If you think that doesn't pose a problem, ask Kollin Moore.
Spencer is also in that tier, along with Jason Nolf, and David Taylor These are guys you watch wrestle and wonder how they're able to do the things they do.
Zain, while being one of the most dominant guys, was an extremely strong, and fundamental wrestler. It feels weird to me not putting a 3x champ and undefeated in those 3 seasons in that tier, but I just don't. I don't even put AB in that tier, who was a 4xer.
I'm sure if I sat down and thought more about it I could come up with my own qualifications for tiers, but like stated above, this is a conversation with no right answer.
The only right answer is that the majority of the recent and future greats, are in blue and white.
Funny how a guy who lost one match as a freshman in NCAA quarters by injury default, battled back for third and then went 1,1,1 in successive years
Losing only to future three time champ Gabe Dean and had a 75% bonus rate…doesn’t enter the conversation.
Ed Ruth still one of the best to ever walk onto a mat.
Losing only to future three time champ Gabe Dean and had a 75% bonus rate…doesn’t enter the conversation.
Ed Ruth still one of the best to ever walk onto a mat.
Shemp was only a 2xer, but awesome during those peak years. Curly was in a weak weight class.
All 4 were generational hand fighters in neutral.
Bo lets him borrow that third one from time to time.
Since nobody else has mentioned him, how about a little love for Kyle Dake? Generational? Probably not. But four NCAA titles at four different weight classes plus numerous world titles. He has to be in the conversation with some of the others.
Askren says 👋
He single handedly changed folk style wrestling into what it is today, with the patients of his coaches.
Nah curly used his head and gut more than his hands, he is the true talent that held those guys together...shemp is and was the backup even though he technically started first, he got out played
The axiom should be that they changed the sport that eliminates all the talents from the legends
To each their own, but I define generational as someone that changed the sport. That might mean in promotion or it might mean those after him trying to emulate him.
So my list, in my lifetime, as I sit on my couch three beers into a Friday evening;
D Gable
Brands
Brands
Cael
Askren
Taylor
Nolf
With Messenbrink on deck.
I’m sure I’m missing someone.
So my list, in my lifetime, as I sit on my couch three beers into a Friday evening;
D Gable
Brands
Brands
Cael
Askren
Taylor
Nolf
With Messenbrink on deck.
I’m sure I’m missing someone.
Using the 20-30 year timeframe for a generation, I'd say in the last 50 years there have only been 2-3 generational wrestlers. So I go with Dan Gable, Cael and Messenbrink (although everything I see from PJ Duke makes me think he might be the answer for the current group of young guys instead of Messenbrink).
