Generational talents

[Pennstate1985]

To each their own, but I define generational as someone that changed the sport. That might mean in promotion or it might mean those after him trying to emulate him.

So my list, in my lifetime, as I sit on my couch three beers into a Friday evening;

D Gable
Brands
Brands
Cael
Askren
Taylor
Nolf

With Messenbrink on deck.

I’m sure I’m missing someone.

I would say...

Dan Gable
Cael
Wade Schalles ( I think he moved wrestling into the modern style of wrestling)

I don't include DT at this stage because he is likely to ape Cael, and that doesn't make him transformational. Too early to tell for a few guys. Definite NO on the Brands. Askren's universe is too small to make him a generational figure.

 

[Ski]

I think everyone has made extremely good points. The only thing that people are disagreeing on is their own definition of generational. This is one of those Mount Rushmore arguments. Take out the term generational, and I think everyone agrees.

If Carter wins his 5th, some will consider him generational since its never been done before (5 D1).

To me, it's not just about stats, placings, awards, etc. Guys not named Cael Sanderson lose matches. To me, I put guys in categories based on my own eye test. Gable is in that top tier of talent. His athleticism at his weight is extremely rare. Cassar had his number, and I'm glad he did. Cassar also posed a problem not many other could, he was left handed, and a very good wrestler. If you think that doesn't pose a problem, ask Kollin Moore.

Spencer is also in that tier, along with Jason Nolf, and David Taylor These are guys you watch wrestle and wonder how they're able to do the things they do.

Zain, while being one of the most dominant guys, was an extremely strong, and fundamental wrestler. It feels weird to me not putting a 3x champ and undefeated in those 3 seasons in that tier, but I just don't. I don't even put AB in that tier, who was a 4xer.

I'm sure if I sat down and thought more about it I could come up with my own qualifications for tiers, but like stated above, this is a conversation with no right answer.

The only right answer is that the majority of the recent and future greats, are in blue and white.

Sorry, you lost me with 94.2% lifetime win rate, Spencer LLLLLLee on the list but 125-3, 3 NCs, 2 Hodges, 3 undefeated seasons, 97.6% lifetime win rate, Zain Retherford not on your list. Take out the term generational and everyone does not agree.

 

[PSUbluTX]

To each their own, but I define generational as someone that changed the sport. That might mean in promotion or it might mean those after him trying to emulate him.

So my list, in my lifetime, as I sit on my couch three beers into a Friday evening;

D Gable
Brands
Brands
Cael
Askren
Taylor
Nolf

With Messenbrink on deck.

I’m sure I’m missing someone.

Only 3 beers? Riiiight.

 

[District four]

Only 3 beers? Riiiight.

Must have a low tolerance if you are throwing the brands in there you sure it's not the 30th beer you are on lmfao.

 

[voltz99]

Wasn't Snyder called generational 10 years earlier. Can it be generational if it happens every 10 years?

... and no, I don't consider Gable generational. A great wrestler? Absolutely. A generational wrestler is a Dan Gable or a Cael Sanderson. A super elite guy that transformed the sport. We lessen generational wrestlers by calling non-generational wrestlers generational.

Generational in da hood. They have kids every ten years or so.

 

[AgSurfer]

When you say generational talent, that can be a lot of people depending on what talent you’re talking about. Some guys who I would put in that category:

Nikola Tesla
Henry Ford
George C Scott
Jimmy Buffett

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I think Hula Hoop girl might have been generational. At least I can say I miss that generation.

 

[LorenzoFan]

If Dan Gable does not coach, does he still rank as high as he does in the minds of those who never saw him wrestle?

 

[doubleboots]

Babe Ruth = generational talent
Wayne Gretzky = generational talent
Jordan = generational talent
Carl Sanderson = generational talent.
Throwing the term around with decade greats cheapens the term.

 

[LorenzoFan]

There are not enough major events on an individual wrestlers adult schedule to separate awesome talents. When there are more than one wrestler in a 20 year span with records like Dake, Nolf, Stieber, Ruth, Etc. That all win virtually 95+ percent of their matches, it is hard to label anybody "generational".

When it comes to the eye test, (records and accomplishments not necessarily factored in) Nolf, Taylor , Kolat, Ruth, Sanderson all could do things with an ease that I have never seen before.

I remember talking to a 2x Olympian for Bulgaria one time about how good a wrestler is/was and in his world, the only tournaments that held any water were Olympics and Worlds and to lesser extent Tbilisi and Yarigan, everything else was child's play.

 

[Pennstate1985]

If Dan Gable does not coach, does he still rank as high as he does in the minds of those who never saw him wrestle?

To me, no. Otherwise, Gray Simons would be a legend above anyone not named Cael. 91-2 record with his losses coming early his FR year. 3 time champion. 2-time Outstanding Wrestler. Not to mention his 4 NAIA titles and 4 Outstanding Wrestler awards there.

 

[Shifty15]

Honestly, both Gable and Spencer were labeled generational before they ever stepped on a collegiate mat.

People throw around things like 'the greatest' in every sport, far too often, and 'generational' in wrestling is not so different.

At the end of their NCAA tenures their accomplishments pulled them back into quite a large pool of "elite" talent, but sorry bro neither delivered on the generational moniker. Beyond the eye test, neither delivered on the very best in a "couple of decades" results.

Spencer was pinned twice for christ's sake, and had what 6 loses?

Ed, Zain, Bo, Jason, Carter, & Aaron all leave Spencer in the dust by a good distance statistically in several categories and we have some guys on the team today that may do the same once all is said and done.

Today's Gable is the best heavy I have seen in some time, but he lost twice to the same guy in the same year. A guy who wasn't even a starter in other years, let's alone a multi time champ. Jason lost twice to a guy who would have been a 4xer, if that guy hadn't run into two multi time PSU champs. Most of our other 3xer greats all have similar' within a whisker from being a 4xer stories.

Likewise, including freestyle results in the justification, alters the argument, or at least muddies the waters further IMO.

To me Gable is in that category of the ones who had a chance to be one of the greatest ever but unfortunately squandered it a bit due to some poor choices, while also losing a big match(s) he probably shouldn't have, or shouldn't have if he was to earn the title you want to assign. How great would have Aaron Pico been had he not chosen to .. could Chance Marsteller have been a 4xer if he had stayed at PSU, kept his nose clean, and Bo gone somewhere else? Probably not, but as a senior in highschool he was branded generational too.

If you want generational, my list has guys like:

John
Paul
George
Ringo

;-)

Please list the bonus % for each…🤔

 

[LorenzoFan]

Bonus is one measure but pinning it my top measure. GS does not seem to pin much. New scoring skews bonus as well

 

[Pennstate1985]

Please list the bonus % for each…🤔

From news reports, they bonused a lot. Not Mic Jagger or Wilt Chamberlain level of bonus, but a very good ratio.

 

[Nitlion1986]

If Dan Gable does not coach, does he still rank as high as he does in the minds of those who never saw him wrestle?

Nope.

 

[dpd926]

How has John Smith’s name not come up?

Sure, he is only a 2-time NCAA champ. He took his RS after his sophomore year (1985) NCAA runner up finish and- like a mad scientist- perfected his revolutionary low-single. That is the point when his talent started its generational run: Goodwill Games gold in 86; NCAA championships in 87 & 88- finishing his college career with a 90-match winning streak; World Gold in 87 (as a college RS junior), Olympic gold in 88, World golds in 89, 90, 91, and a second Olympic gold in 92. Still the only US wrestler to win 6 straight world/Olympic golds - and the run started while he was still in college. His low single technique and duck under are still being used effectively nearly 40 years later.

In my lifetime there have been three “generational” talents: Dan Gable, Cael Sanderson - both of whom are generational for how their coaching has changed the nature of the sport, and Smith- both for his unprecedented accomplishments and revolutionizing a technique that is still effective at the highest levels nearly 40 years later.

 

[Lovethissport]

Gabe Dean was not a 3x champ.

Not sure how I forgot that beatdown that Bo gave him. But my point remains…Ed Ruth was a beast!

 

[AgSurfer]

Not sure how I forgot that beatdown that Bo gave him. But my point remains…Ed Ruth was a beast!

I wouldn’t call Bo’s win a beat down. It was a good match that saw Bo come out on top.

 

[LorenzoFan]

I wouldn’t call Bo’s win a beat down. It was a good match that saw Bo come out on top.

Agree completely!