Hendrickson and Schultz both end the season undefeated. How should 285 be seeded?

[jmadden1998]

And of course, per the rule there are 3 choices for the refree to determine as the wrestlers leave the mat.
1. Activity - no stall.
2. Backing off to avoid activity - stalling.
3. Blocking from returning to mat, driving off the mat - stalling.

So if Marinelli has the double hooks and is simply driving off the mat, who is stalling?

So Amine consistently backing to the edge of the mat and not attempting anything deserves a stall call on Marinelli? Common sense has to prevail.

 

[82bordeaux]

So Amine consistently backing to the edge of the mat and not attempting anything deserves a stall call on Marinelli? Common sense has to prevail.

The question becomes backing up, or being pushed back? But I’ll tell you this, Alex was looking for the stall. He was looking at the ref before he was out of bounds.

 

[ss7]

The question becomes backing up, or being pushed back? But I’ll tell you this, Alex was looking for the stall. He was looking at the ref before he was out of bounds.

Maybe it's unfair of me or I'm way off base, but the Marinelli v Amine match is exactly why I don't like a push out rule. It incentivizes moving the action to the edge of the mat and gives guys a way to score without actually getting a takedown.

I'm not saying I know how to do it, but I want rules that encourage staying in the middle of the mat and working for takedowns in neutral.

While Alex Marinelli is not the most dynamic wrestler from neutral, he certainly has more in his arsenal than he showed Saturday night. And yet he chose to concentrate, almost exclusively, on the pseudo-push out calls. If that becomes an even more viable option to score from neutral, I think that strategy will be utilized regularly.

 

[Lyco1990]

So Amine consistently backing to the edge of the mat and not attempting anything deserves a stall call on Marinelli? Common sense has to prevail.

Yes you Iowa fans and most officials don’t read the rules. IMO Iowa wrestlers don’t progress due to a faulty game plan. If getting a cheap stall is your recipe to win… maybe try a different recipe. It is obvious that TNT press the own the mat and don’t let the guy on your mat philosophy not action.

 

[SWPA]

Maybe it's unfair of me or I'm way off base, but the Marinelli v Amine match is exactly why I don't like a push out rule. It incentivizes moving the action to the edge of the mat and gives guys a way to score without actually getting a takedown.

I'm not saying I know how to do it, but I want rules that encourage staying in the middle of the mat and working for takedowns in neutral.

While Alex Marinelli is not the most dynamic wrestler from neutral, he certainly has more in his arsenal than he showed Saturday night. And yet he chose to concentrate, almost exclusively, on the pseudo-push out calls. If that becomes an even more viable option to score from neutral, I think that strategy will be utilized regularly.

 

[Gebmo]

I see both sides here. I can't stand just pushing guys out, but in Amine's case, it was really irritating to me that he seemed to wrestle half the match with his feet over the line. Every time in the middle he quickly went to the edge and stayed there. I think it was his strategy.

Marinelli uses that tactic for sure, but Amine seems to play the edge too. I dislike both. Edge wrestling limits offensive options for many guys, and Marinelli is one of them. Didn't see Amine doing anything. In this case he bothered me more than Marinelli's pushing. Just a boring match I won't waste my time with again.

 

[jmadden1998]

Yes you Iowa fans and most officials don’t read the rules. IMO Iowa wrestlers don’t progress due to a faulty game plan. If getting a cheap stall is your recipe to win… maybe try a different recipe. It is obvious that TNT press the own the mat and don’t let the guy on your mat philosophy not action.

The hate for Iowa puts blinders on too many.

 

[KCLion]

I think I'm being objective here. AM definitely uses the strategy of using double unders to jack his opponent up. That takes the weight off his opponent's feet, reducing their leverage. He uses that lever advantage to run his opponent back off the mat. It is a common freestyle offense. The only difference is that AM is looking for a stall call rather than the push out point. Eventually, the opponent is forced to do everything possible not to get pushed out and this leaves them open to a leg attack, which AM takes advantage of too.
But it is less a case of his opponent "running" and more of a case of being helpless to avoid the push out. It is hard to "run" backwards when your body is at a 45 degree angle toward the wrestler with the underhooks. They are getting run off the mat.

Watched the replay of Kaden Gfeller final in the Big12 championships last night. This is a prime example of exactly what you described without the possible leg attack. Two pushouts and an escape to win 2-1.

 

[nitlion6]

So Amine consistently backing to the edge of the mat and not attempting anything deserves a stall call on Marinelli? Common sense has to prevail.

I have already acknowledged Amine did nothing offensively. However, when Marinelli was driving with his hooks in Amine was struggling to stay on the mat. The second stall call, Amine kind of collapsed and wilted while backing off that was legitimate. But man, if one guy is simply locking the other up and driving him off like a big old super duty in low 4 wheel drive that isn't offensive wrestling. Marinelli wasn't looking to score shit on any of those.
I doubt Amine would have mustered much of an offensive attack wrestling Marinelli, but how can we know. He spent most of his time in neutral just trying not to get pushed out.

 

[dunkej01]

The hate for Iowa puts blinders on too many.

It's a 2 way street

 

[jmadden1998]

It's a 2 way street

 

[nitlion6]

Watched the replay of Kaden Gfeller final in the Big12 championships last night. This is a prime example of exactly what you described without the possible leg attack. Two pushouts and an escape to win 2-1.

Yeah, I thought that was even more bullshit than Marinelli and Amine.

 

[jmadden1998]

Yeah, I thought that was even more bullshit than Marinelli and Amine.

Watch Schultz vs Traub Pac 12 final.

 

[RoarLions1]

I'm with Gebmo (see post above).

But that's not the only reason I'm posting. I have a bit of a pet peeve at the referee's position immediately after the whistle is blown. Some wrestlers drive their opponent to the edge (after they stand), then try to keep their own toe in bounds. If the opponent gets close to an escape, they go OB and get a restart. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. I believe, by the rules, the offensive guy should be called for stalling, not the first time, but certainly after the third or fourth, say. I've noticed this behavior from very specific wrestlers, who do it every bout.

 

[KCLion]

Watch Schultz vs Traub Pac 12 final.

Agree, It was horrible as well.

 

[nitlion6]

Watch Schultz vs Traub Pac 12 final.

I haven't seen it yet, but someone posted a mention of that match yesterday.

 

[nitlion6]

I'm with Gebmo (see post above).

But that's not the only reason I'm posting. I have a bit of a pet peeve at the referee's position immediately after the whistle is blown. Some wrestlers drive their opponent to the edge (after they stand), then try to keep their own toe in bounds. If the opponent gets close to an escape, they go OB and get a restart. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. I believe, by the rules, the offensive guy should be called for stalling, not the first time, but certainly after the third or fourth, say. I've noticed this behavior from very specific wrestlers, who do it every bout.

Second time and every time after top guy should get hit with a stall. It has become as PIA obvious and it is a shame things need to be explained in such a simple straight forward manner to get referees to call things.

 

[NoVa Lion]

I'm with Gebmo (see post above).

But that's not the only reason I'm posting. I have a bit of a pet peeve at the referee's position immediately after the whistle is blown. Some wrestlers drive their opponent to the edge (after they stand), then try to keep their own toe in bounds. If the opponent gets close to an escape, they go OB and get a restart. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. Rinse, repeat. I believe, by the rules, the offensive guy should be called for stalling, not the first time, but certainly after the third or fourth, say. I've noticed this behavior from very specific wrestlers, who do it every bout.

See Tony Nelson although he usually did it after his opponent stood up.

 

[El-Jefe]

Maybe it's unfair of me or I'm way off base, but the Marinelli v Amine match is exactly why I don't like a push out rule. It incentivizes moving the action to the edge of the mat and gives guys a way to score without actually getting a takedown.

It's actually the opposite -- as-is both guys have an incentive to work the edge.

By rule Marinelli is to be called for stalling on pushouts -- so Amine has a double incentive to let him -- boundary defense + stall calls.

The refs all that inconsistently at best, so Marinelli benefits too.

Pushout rule shifts boundary responsibility from the refs to Amine. Where it belongs. Don't want to give up a cheap point? Keep the action in the center.

 

[El-Jefe]

I haven't seen it yet, but someone posted a mention of that match yesterday.

Do yourself a favor: don't bother.

 

[ss7]

It's actually the opposite -- as-is both guys have an incentive to work the edge.

By rule Marinelli is to be called for stalling on pushouts -- so Amine has a double incentive to let him -- boundary defense + stall calls.

The refs all that inconsistently at best, so Marinelli benefits too.

Pushout rule shifts boundary responsibility from the refs to Amine. Where it belongs. Don't want to give up a cheap point? Keep the action in the center.

In that match specifically, it's not like Marinelli pushed to the edge because all his other efforts were thwarted by Amine backing up. Pushing to the edge and getting points via stall calls seemed to be his first option.

I also don't think the push out rule will completely eliminate subjectivity at the boundary, assuming the grounded/action call accompanies the pushout rule. The game will become how to get down to a knee or whatever else is qualified as an exception (which you know would be included). I am extremely skeptical that the installation of a pushout will be the panacea some people seem to think it will be.

I'm just not certain there needs to be this level of intervention to "fix" anything.

 

[El-Jefe]

In that match specifically, it's not like Marinelli pushed to the edge because all his other efforts were thwarted by Amine backing up. Pushing to the edge and getting points via stall calls seemed to be his first option.

I also don't think the push out rule will completely eliminate subjectivity at the boundary, assuming the grounded/action call accompanies the pushout rule. The game will become how to get down to a knee or whatever else is qualified as an exception (which you know would be included). I am extremely skeptical that the installation of a pushout will be the panacea some people seem to think it will be.

I'm just not certain there needs to be this level of intervention to "fix" anything.

The easy way to tell is to watch freestyle matches at the senior level.

There will always be some pushouts, but many years of matches show that the guys work hard to get away from the edge to avoid cheapies.

But serious question: if that's not needed, then why complain about the current NCAA boundary situation? Years of evidence tell us the rule will be reffed haphazardly, and it was created due to boundary abuse.

 

[ss7]

The easy way to tell is to watch freestyle matches at the senior level.

There will always be some pushouts, but many years of matches show that the guys work hard to get away from the edge to avoid cheapies.

But serious question: if that's not needed, then why complain about the current NCAA boundary situation? Years of evidence tell us the rule will be reffed haphazardly, and it was created due to boundary abuse.

I'm not (or at least not intending to) complaining about the boundary situation. I don't think the boundary situation is a problem that requires an entire new method of scoring to combat.

I think the adoption of a push out rule will make pushing guys to the edge an offensive focus for a not-insignificant number wrestlers. And I don't think that necessarily represents an improvement when it comes to keeping action in the center of the mat. I think the decrease in retreating to the edge will be more or less offset by the increase in pushing action to the edge, with the end result being an at-best marginal improvement.

Stalling is subjective. Fans will complain about it, particularly after their guy loses a match or wins by less than those expected after being the more offensive wrestler. I accept these realities. But I don't think we need to (or really can) construct rules to make stalling less subjective or fans less likely to complain about stalling.

I understand some people disagree with this.

 

[RoarLions1]

I'm not (or at least not intending to) complaining about the boundary situation. I don't think the boundary situation is a problem that requires an entire new method of scoring to combat.

I think the adoption of a push out rule will make pushing guys to the edge an offensive focus for a not-insignificant number wrestlers. And I don't think that necessarily represents an improvement when it comes to keeping action in the center of the mat. I think the decrease in retreating to the edge will be more or less offset by the increase in pushing action to the edge, with the end result being an at-best marginal improvement.

Stalling is subjective. Fans will complain about it, particularly after their guy loses a match or wins by less than those expected after being the more offensive wrestler. I accept these realities. But I don't think we need to (or really can) construct rules to make stalling less subjective or fans less likely to complain about stalling.

I understand some people disagree with this.

Well said. The idea of a push-out in folk is thought-provoking, but I can't let go of the thinking that it changes our sport for the worse.