How many Penn State boosters were PRO Penn State but anti-Joe Paterno??

[Michael.Felli]

I've followed Penn State Football as closely as anyone else, here. And, I know that there was a percentage of people (small) that grew to loathe Joe Paterno and longed for a change. It hit its zenith with the infamous JOEMUSTGO.COM website. In 2005, the critics grew quieter for a year but FAR from silent.

I find it difficult to accept that there wasn't some (inside) powerful Penn State alums/boosters that wanted to make certain that Penn State turned the page - COMPLETELY - and keep any Jay Paterno's or the "in" Football crowd (e.g., Scrap, Galen, Vandy) from taking over after Joe left/died. For some, having the "same ol'-same ol' for another decade or two with "Joe-style" of football under a new HC, would be too much for some to muster.

I just can't fathom that this all went down WITHOUT some "inside" help. There has ALWAYS been a small percentage of anti-Paterno sentiment among we alums as far back as the late 80's. I recall lots of garbage when Joe had his first LOSING season in 1988.

It's just something that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not just talking the BOT. Others had to influence the BOT, IMO.

 

[BBrown]

Originally posted by Michael.Felli:

I've followed Penn State Football as closely as anyone else, here. And, I know that there was a percentage of people (small) that grew to loathe Joe Paterno and longed for a change. It hit its zenith with the infamous JOEMUSTGO.COM website. In 2005, the critics grew quieter for a year but FAR from silent.

I find it difficult to accept that there wasn't some (inside) powerful Penn State alums/boosters that wanted to make certain that Penn State turned the page - COMPLETELY - and keep any Jay Paterno's or the "in" Football crowd (e.g., Scrap, Galen, Vandy) from taking over after Joe left/died. For some, having the "same ol'-same ol' for another decade or two with "Joe-style" of football under a new HC, would be too much for some to muster.

I just can't fathom that this all went down WITHOUT some "inside" help. There has ALWAYS been a small percentage of anti-Paterno sentiment among we alums as far back as the late 80's. I recall lots of garbage when Joe had his first LOSING season in 1988.

It's just something that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not just talking the BOT. Others had to influence the BOT, IMO.

JMO, but after seeing what happened on Nov. 9th. I think its fair to say there were some very Anti-Joe people
that had much more clout than initially thought.
I know there were a couple on this board, many turned after the '99 Minny game and then more turned after Devlin didn't win the starting job.
I also think there were far more in the media and the Big10 then I thought.

 

[SgtCarter]

was pro-both but our recruiting fell off badly

because he and some assistants did not travel. Program was not what it was. He was going to retire at the end of 2011 and we know what happened

 

[michnittlion]

I admit: IMO, JoePa should have been long gone as our HC well before 2011

he was lazy (what, I have to recruit?), nepotistic and egotistic during most of the 2000s. Not what I wanted from a PSU HC.


What I do find unfair ---- the people here who accuse me (and others) of using the Sandusky incident to validate my opinions of Joe pre: 2011.


As such, I find your post unfair. There was and is PLENTY of reason to have a "less than positive" opinion of JoePa from November 2011 onwards. What's absurd is to say that every[/I] PSU folk who has that opinion now was fueled by their pre-November 2011 hatred/dislike of Joe.


Absurd.
This post was edited on 3/16 4:17 PM by michnittlion

 

[Countrylion]

The numbers show recruiting had fallen a little in

2009 and 2010 but not badly. Recuiting was excellent in the mid-2000's which led directly to back to back 11 win seasons on top of the 2005 10 win 1 loss season.

 

[nits74]

Re: I admit: IMO, JoePa should have been long gone as our HC well before 2011

mich, I think many here who defend Joe now also thought he stayed too long. Now to your point, to call him nepotistic and, particularly, lazy (he was in his late 70's and early 80's) is a bit over the top. Egotistical, perhaps.

This post was edited on 3/16 4:30 PM by nits74

 

[LundyPSU]

I guess you could put me in that bucket. I wanted Joe gone from coaching for a long time. I sent many emails to Curley about it and even stopped contributing for a period of time because of it.

However, as critical as I was about Joe's coaching, what happened to him at the end was complete BS.

 

[psu1969a]

Well, let me see. At least 16 members of the BoT. And it seems several of them (Surma, Shuey, Riley, et al) had some very hard feeling.

There is a contingent that believes Joe should have retired years ago. Are they correct? Only God knows. All i know is that we will never have another one like him!

 

[ACGT]

I was always pro PSU and pro Joe. I agree he may have ...

... stayed longer than his coaching skills warranted. But, I always told friends I was OK with loosing a few games each year because he would pass on great recruits if they were not capable of graduating from PSU and his skills diminished, as long as he ran a clean program and insisted on players being students.

As for recruiting, PSU was looking at a top ten recruiting class in 2011 before the $hit hit the fan.

 

[Obliviax]

I really believe that Joe didn't care about polls and standings

after ~ 2000. At that time, cable was in full bloom and high speed internet was beginning to mature. Point is, the geographical affiliation with teams was breaking down and college football went national. If you lived in SoCal, you could follow Florida. If you live in Texas you can be a Michigan fan. As such, the notion of "student" athlete further deteriorated as the NCAA and conference pursued massive TV contracts.

I believe Joe followed his gut. He continued to emphasis schooling. He didn't play into the flash of going national, didn't change the uniforms, didn't allow kids to do sack dances, and so on.

Perhaps that was "loosing touch" and not keeping up. Perhaps it was stubbornness. Perhaps it was just getting old. But I think he did the right thing and became an even bigger fan.

 

[bdgan]

Very few were anti Paterno (except for some on the BOT)

Most fans were frustrated with the losses during dark years and by Joe's inability (or unwillingness) to hit the road recruiting. A large majority thought that he stayed too long but I don't think very many were "anti Joe".

Some administrators & board members were probably upset because they thought Joe had too much power. Of course he really didn't have any more power than they allowed him to have. They were just afraid to stand up to Joe so they kept their tail between their legs. When the JS scandal broke they saw that as an opportunity to get rid of Joe. I don't think they realized how much they would alienate the fan base.

 

[LafayetteBear]

Re: Very few were anti Paterno (except for some on the BOT)


No intent to excoriate anyone here, but I really cannot conceive of being pro-PSU and anti-JVP. Think that is truly a cognitive leap.

Joe had a few years in the early 2000's when his program was down and people were saying he was old and had lost it, but then the program later turned around and he had the opportunity to say "I told you so."

I think many PSU grads are in the fortunate position of having been spoiled by years of success. Do you know how hard it is to succeed both athletically and academically, particularly at the same time? Joe graduated players and won games at an amazing clip. Very few coaches can make that claim.

 

[Cosmos]

You can love the man and still have wanted him out.

It wasn't and 'either-or' proposition.

 

[Southeastern PA Buck]

Impossible to be anti-Joe Paterno and PRO PSU

The two cannot exist.

 

[BBrown]

Re: Very few were anti Paterno (except for some on the BOT)

Originally posted by LafayetteBear:

No intent to excoriate anyone here, but I really cannot conceive of being pro-PSU and anti-JVP. Think that is truly a cognitive leap.

Joe had a few years in the early 2000's when his program was down and people were saying he was old and had lost it, but then the program later turned around and he had the opportunity to say "I told you so."

I think many PSU grads are in the fortunate position of having been spoiled by years of success. Do you know how hard it is to succeed both athletically and academically, particularly at the same time? Joe graduated players and won games at an amazing clip. Very few coaches can make that claim.

Actually I believe Joe resorting the program in 05 and doing pretty well in 07,08 and until Nov. 9th of 09' pissed more people off
than ever before.

 

[marshall23]

Re: Very few were anti Paterno (except for some on the BOT)

Very few people who achieve what Joe did are without ego. I am sure he enjoyed flaunting the rebrith of the program that the Ship of Fools had pronounced dead. If he should have, could have retired is immaterial. The willingness to destroy his legacy and take the football program with it.......makes me wonder how any of them, Surma, Joyner, Suhey, Frazier have the courage to show their faces on campus. These Fools continue to spend millions to cover their slimey plot.

 

[Mudge1026]

Re: Impossible to be anti-Joe Paterno and PRO PSU

What always irked me about Joepa was that he often said , "no one person is bigger than Penn State Football" but while saying it, it seemed that Joe had different rules for himself. By 2000 Joe had many problems with the PA high school coaches and as a result of it we were not getiing as much of the creme of the crop in Pa, inexcusable for any Penn State Head Football Coach. On top of his recruiting shortcomings in PA Joepa decides to completely abandon Ohio by putting Jay in charge of it????? Wheh it became obvious Jay wasnt cutting it Joe just flat out gave up on Ohio football talent, a recruiting pipeline that saw PSU sign many many ALL Americans who became NFLers. To me that was the last straw regarding Joepa's future at Penn State. I could never forgive him for the nepotism. Then on top of this Joe decides to tell the PSU faithfull that we "need to lower our expectations". What the heck is he telling me? Joe isnt cutting it on the recruiting trail then tells us PSU fans with his actions to shut the hell up.

The later years "arrogance" is what did it for me. To much bull sh..t from Joe Paterno I no longer would support Him. Many of us accused him of "selfishness". Joe actually said he wanted to stick around because he had no hobbies? Really? I even expressed my feelings to him in a certified letter. Hey Joe Penn State is my school too Class of 1984. Of course there was no reply, he didnt need to because for every frustrated fan like me he was getting more positive words from others.

Now this should be put into perspective, Joe did not deserve the railroading he got with the Sandusky affair but while saying that he certainly should not have coached at all that year. It was obvious that his arrogance was over the top.

This post was edited on 3/16 7:27 PM by Mudge1026

 

[michnittlion]

That's fair ----- lazy may have been A BIT bombastic

But I do think there is something to that. I'd get annoyed if I had a colleague who was doing a poor job at the age of 75-80 years old, and when people called him out for not doing his job well, he would say "hey, I'm 75-80. I get measured by a different yardstick because I am old!"


Joe flat-out not recruiting the state of Ohio was pretty indefensible. I mean, it was freaking Ohio!!!!! Home of one of our chief competitors while also being a talent-rich state, and we just punted. I know we all slow down, but at times I thought Joe wasn't even trying in the 2000-2011 era.


The yardstick for PSU Head Coaches is the same, IMO. I loved Bill O'Brien, but I got annoyed at him too when he would occasionally blame sanctions in his oblique way. A 100% effort 100% of the time, regardless of the circumstances: that's my standard for our HCs and players. Period.


Maybe I'll think differently as I grow older (still in my late-30s).

 

[marshall23]

Re: That's fair ----- lazy may have been A BIT bombastic

Joe's last 15 seasons.....including the "dark ages" were something like 120-63. I believe he was 6-4 in bowls. I'm no math wiz,,,but that is 8-4 on average. Yeah, he was a bum.....never recruited, archaic offense, hired his idiot son and never had an assistant coach who wasn't a yes man. I hope PSU is better in the 15 years after this clown. Things really went haywire his last 7 years.....sleeping in meetings, letting Jay call the plays, unable to get quality football assistants and using outdating training methods.....66-20 with 4-2 bowl record. Wow, imagine what will happen now! Just wait. The fatso from Wisconsin had the same record and it got him a huge contract and a trip to the SEC. I can't understand why they didn't fire his ass!

 

[demlion]

Paul Suhey was a douche who wanted Joe gone, as was Surma.

there were lots of people who were pro psu, but anti PSU FB, too. Fraudney was one of those. I have never understood whether Anne riley hated her dad and thus hated Joe Paterno for trying to save his life and hogging her dad's attention when she wanted it, or whether she was just deranged or whether she was a follower who did not get it and did not care. She is damaged goods, another SC native who was too strange and too cowardly not to be an interesting story.

Making a speech on the campus, let alone two, will cause people to call you on the telephone and tell you wild-eyed things that even they admit they cannot support. Many of them are from State College, and involve people who have lived there all their lives. They tell them to you anyway, and although I have never revealed it here before I have received many, many phone calls of a (I must admit, I like this stuff) delightfully disturbing nature about Anne Riley--from at least 8 or 9 different people.

I just read Jaypa's book. Having wielded it myself, though not in this context, I could sense the heavy red pencil of the lawyers on this book, either thru stories they redlined or things Jay knew he had to leave out. Some day when all this is over I want to read the book as he would have written it when there was no lawsuit.

Like any town its size, there are a million stories in SC, many of them 5 million words long with only a little tiny single truth at the middle.

YOU WILL NEVER CONVINCE ME THAT STEVE GARBAN, ANNE RILEY, AND MANY OTHERS DID NOT KNOW MORE ABOUT JERRY THAN JOE EVER KNEW.



Originally posted by Michael.Felli:

I've followed Penn State Football as closely as anyone else, here. And, I know that there was a percentage of people (small) that grew to loathe Joe Paterno and longed for a change. It hit its zenith with the infamous JOEMUSTGO.COM website. In 2005, the critics grew quieter for a year but FAR from silent.

I find it difficult to accept that there wasn't some (inside) powerful Penn State alums/boosters that wanted to make certain that Penn State turned the page - COMPLETELY - and keep any Jay Paterno's or the "in" Football crowd (e.g., Scrap, Galen, Vandy) from taking over after Joe left/died. For some, having the "same ol'-same ol' for another decade or two with "Joe-style" of football under a new HC, would be too much for some to muster.

I just can't fathom that this all went down WITHOUT some "inside" help. There has ALWAYS been a small percentage of anti-Paterno sentiment among we alums as far back as the late 80's. I recall lots of garbage when Joe had his first LOSING season in 1988.

It's just something that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not just talking the BOT. Others had to influence the BOT, IMO.

This post was edited on 3/16 8:09 PM by demlion

 

[9fold]

Re: I admit: IMO, JoePa should have been long gone as our HC well before 2011

You really are stupid.

 

[9fold]

I was always pro-PSU and pro-Joe. Joe was more than wins. Anyone who pushed for Joe to be fired because of some losses or because they didn't like the quarterback he chose never knew or forgot what Joe really meant to Penn State. A Joe Paterno comes alone once in a lifetime, if you are lucky. You don't fire Joe for losing some games. He wasn't going to coach forever. You just wait until he goes out on his terms.

Joe obviously should have gone out on his own terms. What happened in 2011 and 2012 is a disgrace.

 

[Mudge1026]

Re: That's fair ----- lazy may have been A BIT bombastic

My problem with Joe wasnt his game plans per se, it was just the way he handled himself off the field, the arrogance. You win some battles but you ultimately lose the war. Look at Coach K he is even more successful than Joe but without the arrogance. I bet if you were a student of history arrogance is the biggest factor in defeat no matter what your endeavors are in life.

 

[Rip_E_2_Joe_PA]

Paul 'the other' Suhey ... Surma uncle to a human walking disaster....

... both these douche bags had an issue with Joe.... the real issue is with their own failings and insecure personalities....
... they define losers.

 

[demlion]

^^^Two truths here! I was among those who thought Joe had the right to say

when he was done, AND among the loudest voices begging him to speak, AND among those most disappointed when he did. Great men drive conflicting emotions.

I have also sai this is not binary. NONE of this has ever been 'either-or".
This post was edited on 3/16 8:32 PM by demlion

 

[michnittlion]

Don't worry, when Joe rises from the dead

surely you anticipate this happening (seriously, read your posts, you freaking worship[/I] Joe and view him as completely infallible), we can hire him once again as HC.

 

[Stargellfan]

I definitely wanted him to step down. I know we won our share of games from 2005 on, but let's be honest except for 2005 and 2008 we did not beat good teams. I was never anti-Joe and I never wanted him fired, but much of the criticism of Joe in the 2000's before the scandal is completely fair. I have lived my entire life in the shadow of the campus. Both of my parents worked there. My brother and I graduated from there. Until 2011, I didn't know Penn State Football without Joe Paterno. I certainly don't need lectured on what he meant and still means to the entire Penn State community. What happened to him in 2011 and 2012 was a disgrace, but that doesn't make the people who were critical of him as a head coach towards the end wrong.

 

[demlion]

You know what? The guy is dead. That is really a dick post..


Just calm down. What other people like does not threaten you.
This post was edited on 3/16 8:51 PM by demlion

 

[michnittlion]

demlion, this is not an "anti-Joe post". It's an "anti-9fold post"

Dr. 9fold is a dick on BWI on a daily freaking basis. Including directly to me elsewhere in this thread.


If it was anyone else, I wouldn't have posted this. But it's Dr. 9fold. Screw him.

This post was edited on 3/16 8:54 PM by michnittlion

 

[Carl Spackler]

Hyperbole reigns again....

Assumptions and accusations of others and mind reading etc..

Trying to position all the positions on Joe and PSU is difficult. Pointing only to PSU fans/alums and not any out of state non PSU/Joe football fans may be a better way to look at it.

1. Joe forever, no retirement, coach forever

2. Joe forever, Joe retires when Joe decides to retire. Joe has major influence in next HC selection.

3. Joe has been here a bit too long and is using the school and his position with his large following to retain his position and power.

4. Joe has been here a bit long and needed to gracefully retire about 1999 when he could still charm a crowd of money givers keeping him busy, employed and a part of the show.

5. Joe has been here too long and needs to go now (from 1990 to 1999). We go out and get a big time HC to replace him.

6. Joe has too much power and his desire to hold court with team mates and be their discipline thus isolating them from normal student students rules and expectations.

7. Joe has been here too long and garnered too much power with the responsibility. Speculation of playing to win in positions.

I'm sure there are more layers of positions but that is a start. Joe was such an amazing person he engendered many and varied positions in the minds of others.

 

[marshall23]

Re: ^^^Two truths here! I was among those who thought Joe had the right to say

I'm not pretending to be a Paterno insider by any means.....but I did have the opportunity to be around Joe a few times in his last years. I don't know where the arrogance comes in. The fact that he fought to keep his job? Or that he said he would turn the program back around and did? I saw him several times in the company of old friends like George Chaump and Joe Sarra. He was sharp, friendly and clearly relaxed in their company.
Some of the recruiting criticisms come from the love of the * system. I think Joe had a pretty good idea of the type of player he wanted and was openly dismissive of the "shave tails" that think they know football talent. Texas had a boatload of 4 and 5 star busts and what did it do for Mack Brown?
Somewhere between '04 and --'09 Joe became a victim of his fame. I saw him in spring practice and at the PSU Clinic and he was mobbed by people who just wanted to stop him and say "Hey Coach my neighbor played for you or my uncle played for you" it would have to wear on him. To me, Joe was much more than a football coach. After his demise, Woody Hayes was asked if he regretted that his legacy might be that of a win at all cost coach. Woody replied,"you have to win enough, to stay around long enough, TO TEACH." Well for my money Joe did plenty of both. PSU would not be what it is today had he chosen to coach elsewhere. I wonder if we can say the same about Dave Joyner, Karen Peetz, Kenny Frazier, Rod Erickson......need I go on?

 

[9fold]

Re: ^^^Two truths here! I was among those who thought Joe had the right to say

Originally posted by marshall23:
I'm not pretending to be a Paterno insider by any means.....but I did have the opportunity to be around Joe a few times in his last years. I don't know where the arrogance comes in. The fact that he fought to keep his job? Or that he said he would turn the program back around and did? I saw him several times in the company of old friends like George Chaump and Joe Sarra. He was sharp, friendly and clearly relaxed in their company.
Some of the recruiting criticisms come from the love of the * system. I think Joe had a pretty good idea of the type of player he wanted and was openly dismissive of the "shave tails" that think they know football talent. Texas had a boatload of 4 and 5 star busts and what did it do for Mack Brown?
Somewhere between '04 and --'09 Joe became a victim of his fame. I saw him in spring practice and at the PSU Clinic and he was mobbed by people who just wanted to stop him and say "Hey Coach my neighbor played for you or my uncle played for you" it would have to wear on him. To me, Joe was much more than a football coach. After his demise, Woody Hayes was asked if he regretted that his legacy might be that of a win at all cost coach. Woody replied,"you have to win enough, to stay around long enough, TO TEACH." Well for my money Joe did plenty of both. PSU would not be what it is today had he chosen to coach elsewhere. I wonder if we can say the same about Dave Joyner, Karen Peetz, Kenny Frazier, Rod Erickson......need I go on?

Joe earned the right to stay until he was ready to step down, and obviously not simply because he won a bunch of games. The wins raised the university's profile with the general public, but it was his emphasis on academics and his generosity that made the university a better place.

I met Joe many times over the years and never saw him as arrogant. In fact, he often was embarrassed by the attention that fans paid him, especially when they wanted autographs and photos with him. He had an "I'm not that big a deal" way about him in crowds.

 

[PSU_Chicago]

Re: You can love the man and still have wanted him out.

I know a number of Penn State grads who love PSU, football and Joe. But they wanted Joe to retire, felt he stayed way too long to the detriment of the football program. Over time they stopped watching games. With OB and CJF they are excited about Penn State Football again.

 

[Cletus11]

When you literally are in one job at one place for 60 years, 45 of them being the head man, you make enemies. Nothing anybody can do to stop that as time and human nature just make it happen. Unfortunatley for JoePa, those last 10 years he probably made more enemies times five then he did in the first 50 years combine. There was a large percentage of the PSU alum that wanted JoePa to hang up the coaching cleats in the 2000's as they recognized he was no longer the coach he used to be and felt he was hanging on way too long and not giving up any control. There was another whole group that did not like the nepotism (constantly promoting Jay) and Joe surrounding himself with his 'yes' man on the coaching staff and in the admin.

That said, I do not think any of those people wanted to see what happened to Joe in the end happen. Only a few select power brokers on the BOT who truly HATED Joe for purely personal reasons wanted it to happen.

 

[demlion]

Taking the posture that Joe might rise from the dead, and that

he was infallible is more than just "anti-9fold." It is pretty disrespectful of a dead guy.

 

[michnittlion]

Thanks, got it

now if you will excuse me, I have to go. I have some zoning meetings to attend over in New Richmond, Ohio.

 

[Jim Schitilimzim]

Joe had earned the right to step down on his terms. So while I would have liked him to step down many years prior, and I felt he was holding the program back, I still supported him for all he had done for the institution and the program. I also admit, I still liked seeing him on the sidelines on game day.

His decision to not step down cost him his legacy. That is a heavy price to pay. There is not a person on this board who has a brain that does not agree that he should have stepped down years earlier. Should be a lesson to all of us.

 

[BUFFALO LION]

Originally posted by Jim Schitilimzim:
Joe had earned the right to step down on his terms. So while I would have liked him to step down many years prior, and I felt he was holding the program back, I still supported him for all he had done for the institution and the program. I also admit, I still liked seeing him on the sidelines on game day.

His decision to not step down cost him his legacy. That is a heavy price to pay. There is not a person on this board who has a brain that does not agree that he should have stepped down years earlier. Should be a lesson to all of us.

Well then I have no brains. I told everyone that wanted to listen that Joe deserved to stay until he was 10,000 years old if he wanted to. I didn't care if we lost every game, as long as we played our best and won with real student athletes.

We were all a family back then, and the games had a real family atmosphere. Even during the dark years, after the expansion, the Beav rocked. When we lost, our entire weeks were ruined. When we won, we strutted our stuff. Now, who cares? We are like everyone else. It's nothing but a business now.

Joe coached for the love of coaching and making Penn State a better place. BOB proved he was coaching for the almighty dollar. And if Franklin gets a sniff from the NFL, he'll be gone too. We are lucky to get over 90,000 to a game anymore. Even in the dark years the place was jammed. That was because of Joe.

Let's hope Franklin can come close to matching Joe's 77% winning percentage over the next seven years like Joe did in his last seven.

Below is the jammed packed stadium during the 2004 6-4 Iowa loss. Not bad for a team that started the game 0-3 in the Big Ten and 2-4 overall. We are lucky to get this kind of crowd for a whiteout Ohio State night game now.

Oh for the good old days.