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I test drove a VW ID.4 this weekend

Lion Son/Husband/Father said:
Full Hd, full screen and full length. With Tomas.
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......and now, we dance!


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step.eng69 said:
Possibly because 2-3 % of the cars on the road are EVs?


Nice article concerning EVs:
Unfortunately at age 72 and just purchasing a Chrysler 300 Limited an EV is not in my future 😟

Should I Buy an Electric Car in 2021?​

John M. Vincent | February 12, 2021

LINK:
"While charging at home is typically cheaper than buying gas to cover an equivalent distance, the math can change if you're using a public charging station or have to pay to park at a charging station.

Charging station companies bill in a couple of ways. In some places, you'll be billed by time. The longer you spend at the charger, the more expensive it will be. It's like going to a gas station and being charged the same amount whether your car takes 10 gallons of gas in five minutes or 20 gallons in five minutes.

If you're at a charging station that charges by time, the faster your electric car's charging capability, the less the recharge will cost. As most electric cars pass 80% of their battery capacity, their rate of charge slows dramatically. It can take as long or longer to fill the last 20% of the battery as the first 80%. When you're at a station priced by the minute, that last 20% can get expensive.

In other places, you'll be charged by the amount of energy your car takes, measured in kilowatt-hours (kWh). That's typically a fairer way to price the cost of energy, and it's more like the per-gallon price you pay at a gas station. In some states, however, electric car charging companies are prohibited from selling by the quantity of electricity provided.

Here's where the math can get even messier for electric cars. When the temperature is low, their ranges are reduced. An example we recently experienced had the fully charged 2020 Audi e-tron only travel 60 miles before taking a recharge to 100% that cost $12 at an Electrify America DC fast-charging station. A similarly sized 2021 Audi Q5 gasoline-powered luxury compact SUV getting 28 mpg on the highway would have covered that distance with just over 2 gallons of gas, costing around half the price of the charge."


"Let's face it, no fuel or technology is free of environmental impacts. Depending on where you live, your electric car is likely powered by coal, natural gas, wind, solar, hydroelectric, or nuclear power. Coal and natural gas power generation plants produce significant quantities of greenhouse gases and other pollutants.

Hydroelectric plants (dams) interfere with the passage of fish, while windmills have been linked to the death of birds. Nuclear energy generates deadly hazardous waste and comes with epic political headaches.

There's even disagreement over whether the U.S. electric grid has the capacity to support the widespread adoption of electric vehicles.

EV advocates contend that these issues and pollutants are better managed at large centralized facilities, rather than at the tailpipes of every car in American cities. Air quality in cities is improved by moving the sources of the pollution outside of population centers.

There's also the life cycle cost of electric vehicle batteries. The exotic raw materials used in their production have to be mined, refined, and assembled using supply chains that span the earth. Many aspects of that process occur outside the purview of the United States' strict environmental protections. At the end of a vehicle's life, the battery pack needs to be recycled or repurposed, and the infrastructure to do so has yet to be developed.

Do the negatives of owning an electric car outweigh the positives? That's a question there's no simple answer to, though an increasing number of researchers believe they do."
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No, the 4x higher gas car fire number is normalized. In other words, if you buy an electric car, it is on average 75% less likely to catch fire than the car you are currently driving. This stat comes from Norway, where EVs now make up 70% of new car sales.
 
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Obliviax said:
and was simply blown away. As I understand it, VW got caught lying about deisel engine performance. They got fined billions and had to commit to some R&D. This is the result. I also understand that VW is trying to restore their name and establish themselves as the EV go-to car. This car comes in at ~ $42k but when you apply the $7500 tax credit is $35k out of pocket. Compare that to the prices for the Ford Mach E (which isn't a mustang, its an SUV) or Testla and it is far lower in price.

  • while I've driven some EV's, this was by far the quietest
  • Today it is RWD with AWD coming but with so much computer assist, over 4,500 lbs and great balance, is AWD needed?
  • 0-60 lags versus a tesla, but it was very comfortable and fine. I mean, how often do you need to blow someone off the line of scrimmage in a car?
  • the roof is all glass. can't put it up but it apparently adds to headroom.
  • Great room in the front and back and still has plenty of storage
  • Seems like just the right video screen. The Mach E and Tesla seem like overkill to me.
  • The balance and safety features of this car are really great.
  • it has a really compact front and, where the motor is, which makes the driver feel like they are in a much smaller vehcle
  • the turning radius is nuts. You can do a U-turn on a normal two-lane road using the shoulder.
I may have to buy one.

id4-leaked-1.jpg


Thoughts?
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Certainly got my attention. i would need an AWD due to the terrain & dirt roads I travel form the highway to my house. 1-1/2 miles of dirt, muddy or dust road. travel down the road 20 mph creates a dust storm.
I wonder about the effect of the dust, dirt & mud on an EV.
 
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step.eng69 said:
Certainly got my attention. i would need an AWD due to the terrain & dirt roads I travel form the highway to my house. 1-1/2 miles of dirt, muddy or dust road. travel down the road 20 mph creates a dust storm.
I wonder about the effect of the dust, dirt & mud on an EV.
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Good question on the dirt.

I asked a friend why RWD who is a car nut. Here was his response:
  • most of the world prefers RWD for handling characteristics. Only the cold weather people, which there are less and less of, prefer FWD. And for those, they can pay up ($3700) to get AWD.
  • The car weighs over 4500 lbs. That is huge! Entry-level Range Rover is 4900. Jeep Wrangler is ~ 4,000. The point is that with that kind of weight and equally distributed over the four wheels, do you really need the FWD capability?
  • There is so much computer assistance given for limited-slip and such, the value of FWD over RWD has been mitigated.
  • There may have been storage issues associated. The AWD version will have two motors: one for front and one for back wheels. The floor on the ID 4 is completely flat. In addition, the nose is flatter to give the driver that feel that they are right on the road. The turning radius is almost "incredible" in that you can do a U turn on a two lane road. It is getting great reviews for the turning radius.
I also prefer AWD but have to confess, only on about five days a year.
 
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step.eng69 said:
Certainly got my attention. i would need an AWD due to the terrain & dirt roads I travel form the highway to my house. 1-1/2 miles of dirt, muddy or dust road. travel down the road 20 mph creates a dust storm.
I wonder about the effect of the dust, dirt & mud on an EV.
Click to expand...
Why would you be concerned with dust and dirt? The motor(s) are sealed units that can actually be completely submersed without damage, most EV's don't have transmissions and much fewer moving parts and require less maintenance. Their brakes typically last much longer because of regenerative braking. Is there something unusual about their drivetrains that concerns you? IC engines let air into the system, shouldn't that be of more concern to you?
 
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SLUPSU said:
Why would you be concerned with dust and dirt? The motor(s) are sealed units that can actually be completely submersed without damage, most EV's don't have transmissions and much fewer moving parts and require less maintenance. Their brakes typically last much longer because of regenerative braking. Is there something unusual about their drivetrains that concerns you? IC engines let air into the system, shouldn't that be of more concern to you?
Click to expand...

The only potential concern I would have is reduced efficiency if the cooling systems for the batteries are coated in dirt/dust. There is dust/dirt everywhere so I'm sure its not actually an issue but that in theory could cause issues.
 
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Not saying there aren't any, but I don't know of a single recharging station. How long does it take to charge? I assume there will be lines. I think an electric car would be fine for local travel if you can charge it at home. but I wouldn't attempt to travel in one.
 
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fastlax16 said:
The only potential concern I would have is reduced efficiency if the cooling systems for the batteries are coated in dirt/dust. There is dust/dirt everywhere so I'm sure its not actually an issue but that in theory could cause issues.
Click to expand...

The battery cooling system (for a Tesla) is a closed system that works with heat exchangers and chillers that work with the AC system. It's entirely possible that the system might be more efficient with a coating of dust, dirt, or mud.... like adding a layer of insulation.
 
Obliviax said:
I also prefer AWD but have to confess, only on about five days a year.
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This is at the end of my 1.5 miles of township dirt road. Now have to traverse the family's farm road. this is the road product following snow plowing with a light overnight drizzle. You can see where my a$$hole neighbor with his Jeep wiped out at the bottom of the hill & sprinted over the bank. After my son rescued the neighbor, decided to park his Jeep by the dumpster and walk home. My car is the silver Impala...living here for 43 yrs, I know how to travel our roads. The farm road continues another 1,800 feet up the mountain.

PICS TAKEN ON FEB. 16, 2021

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step.eng69 said:
This is at the end of my 1.5 miles of dirt road. Now have to traverse the family's farm road. this is the road product following snow plowing with a light overnight drizzle. You can see where my a$$hole neighbor with his Jeep wiped out at the bottom of the hill & sprinted over the bank. After my son rescued the neighbor, decided to park his Jeep by the dumpster and walk home. My car is the silver Impala...living here for 43 yrs, I know how to travel our roads. The farm road continues another 1,800 feet up the mountain.

IMG-0311-002.jpg


ice.jpg


IMG-0320-002.jpg
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Gotcha. The Ford Mustang Mach E is AWD at ~ $50k minus the $7500 rebate. The VW ID.4 has an AWD version out late summer but adds $3700 to the tab. So it will come in at $48k or so minus the $7500 rebate. there is some noise of the feds kicking that up to $10k but IDK if that will happen.
 
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BBG65 said:
Not saying there aren't any, but I don't know of a single recharging station. How long does it take to charge? I assume there will be lines. I think an electric car would be fine for local travel if you can charge it at home. but I wouldn't attempt to travel in one.
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First off, you're likely correct that local travel is where the electric vehicle (EV) will be best suited. An EV with a stated 300 mile range gets 300 miles of range only in the most ideal situation (75 degree temp, low wind, carrying minimal weight, going a normal speed, using regenerative breaking, on and on). To sum it up, a 300 mile range vehicle will likely only get you 250-275 miles of actual range and potentially less in cold weather.

That said, there are lots of people who do car trips in EVs proving that it is possible. All the cars rely on navigation apps with built in trip planning software which gives you a route and plans out charging stops along the way. For long road trips, electronic charging stations are strategically laid out along major highways and also in more densely populated urban areas. These charging stops are then factored into the overall trip length by the navigation computer. When you start to your destination, the trip computer tells you where to stop and for how long you'll need to stop there to charge.

As an example, I went to the Tesla website and plugged into their trip planner a drive from Harrisburg, PA to Raleigh, NC. Tesla says the drive (376 miles) will take 7 hours and 5 minutes. That time includes two planned charging stops (one 40 minute stop in Springfield, VA and one 15 minute stop in South Hill, VA). Google maps says the same trip will be just over 6 hours. Of course, the difference between the EV drive and the drive in a regular car will be reduced if you make a stop or two in the normal car which isn't factored into the length of the Google maps directions.

As for the time it takes to charge, that depends on how you charge the car. If you plug the car in at home to a standard 120v outlet, you'll get 4 miles / hour of charge. For most people who are driving 30/40 miles / day, this works fine since they can plug in and be topped off over night (10 hours x 4 mi / hour charge = 40 miles of charge). However there are high speed chargers dotting the interstates that charge at a much higher rate and are better suited for recharging on a road trip.
 
dmk228 said:
First off, you're likely correct that local travel is where the electric vehicle (EV) will be best suited. An EV with a stated 300 mile range gets 300 miles of range only in the most ideal situation (75 degree temp, low wind, carrying minimal weight, going a normal speed, using regenerative breaking, on and on). To sum it up, a 300 mile range vehicle will likely only get you 250-275 miles of actual range and potentially less in cold weather.

That said, there are lots of people who do car trips in EVs proving that it is possible. All the cars rely on navigation apps with built in trip planning software which gives you a route and plans out charging stops along the way. For long road trips, electronic charging stations are strategically laid out along major highways and also in more densely populated urban areas. These charging stops are then factored into the overall trip length by the navigation computer. When you start to your destination, the trip computer tells you where to stop and for how long you'll need to stop there to charge.

As an example, I went to the Tesla website and plugged into their trip planner a drive from Harrisburg, PA to Raleigh, NC. Tesla says the drive (376 miles) will take 7 hours and 5 minutes. That time includes two planned charging stops (one 40 minute stop in Springfield, VA and one 15 minute stop in South Hill, VA). Google maps says the same trip will be just over 6 hours. Of course, the difference between the EV drive and the drive in a regular car will be reduced if you make a stop or two in the normal car which isn't factored into the length of the Google maps directions.

As for the time it takes to charge, that depends on how you charge the car. If you plug the car in at home to a standard 120v outlet, you'll get 4 miles / hour of charge. For most people who are driving 30/40 miles / day, this works fine since they can plug in and be topped off over night (10 hours x 4 mi / hour charge = 40 miles of charge). However there are high speed chargers dotting the interstates that charge at a much higher rate and are better suited for recharging on a road trip.
Click to expand...
Thanks..totally agree....the biggest hangup is the long trips. And even if you decide to eat while charging, the stations aren't always near the food meaning you'll brown bag it in the front seat while you charge because the walk to the charger from the eatery is too far. So in the end, you've got a very expensive car that really isn't cost justifiable at $1500/year savings and has limited convenience requiring you to also have a second car (that isn't free) or rent a car for long trips.

If you get 20 mpg and drive 15,000 miles with gas being $3/gallon, you get 15,000/20 x $3 or $2,250. an EV typically costs, on average, $9 per 200 miles. So that cost is $675.

Having said that, you aren't seeing many people go back to gas cars from EVs
 
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step.eng69 said:
Possibly because I travel 1.5 miles of dirt roads to get home. Should I not be curious of the impact of the dust on a $50,000 purchase? VW ID -4 pro -AWD
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I would be less concerned about dust as I would be the jostling around on dirt. Plus our wonderful potholed roads we all enjoy in spite of trillions of dollars that was supposed to go to infrastructure instead of pork and favored donors over the last couple decades. Bouncing around for a couple years could break or shake lose some internal parts ....short out a battery....and *poof*

And how hard an accident does damage? And would any battery damage be visible? Couple bumps in the parking lot.......
 
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Obliviax said:
Thanks..totally agree....the biggest hangup is the long trips. And even if you decide to eat while charging, the stations aren't always near the food meaning you'll brown bag it in the front seat while you charge because the walk to the charger from the eatery is too far. So in the end, you've got a very expensive car that really isn't cost justifiable at $1500/year savings and has limited convenience requiring you to also have a second car (that isn't free) or rent a car for long trips.

If you get 20 mpg and drive 15,000 miles with gas being $3/gallon, you get 15,000/20 x $3 or $2,250. an EV typically costs, on average, $9 per 200 miles. So that cost is $675.

Having said that, you aren't seeing many people go back to gas cars from EVs
Click to expand...
I agree with most of that. I think for the most part, people who buy an EV also have a garage with an "ICE" car for longer trips and save the EV for commuting, trips around town, etc. In theory, there should be less wear and tear maintenance like oil changes, mechanical break down, etc. to factor into your cost analysis (although EVs are damn heavy and Teslas in particular are known for people drag racing off every stop light resulting in heavy tire wear and more frequent tire changes). All that said, I doubt the real reason people switch to EVs is to save $$ on gas / maintenance (hard to imagine buying a $50k Tesla to save a bit of $$ each year on gas).

That said, as the technology advances and charging stations become more common, the inconvenience factor will be overcome. Tesla is soon to release new battery cells in its Model S and Cybertruck that reportedly have 500+ mile range. Now these cars (Model S and Cybertruck) are far too expensive to be mainstream vehicles, but that technology is coming to their other more mainstream cars over the next few years. Solid state battery technology is also advancing and should likely be in production vehicles in a meaningful way in the next decade. Couple those more energy-dense batteries with a greater supply of charging stations and EVs will become far more common (probably the norm in the next two decades).
 
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SLUPSU said:
Well.....

www.autoweek.com

Some California EV Owners Allegedly Switch Back to Gas

California’s EV owners supposedly switch back to gas-powered cars they find charging is a hassle, research shows.
www.autoweek.com www.autoweek.com
Click to expand...
This isn’t that surprising to me. The article hits on one item that I expect is the biggest cause: these people bought in early before a lot of issues were worked through (battery cooling for example). Being an early adopter comes with risk. The other issue as I understand it, is CA has an awful lot of EVs and apparently a relatively large number of people who have no option for at home charging. Tesla supercharger stations in populated areas often have significant wait times and if that’s your only option for charging, you will very soon part with your EV.
 
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dmk228 said:
I agree with most of that. I think for the most part, people who buy an EV also have a garage with an "ICE" car for longer trips and save the EV for commuting, trips around town, etc. In theory, there should be less wear and tear maintenance like oil changes, mechanical break down, etc. to factor into your cost analysis (although EVs are damn heavy and Teslas in particular are known for people drag racing off every stop light resulting in heavy tire wear and more frequent tire changes). All that said, I doubt the real reason people switch to EVs is to save $$ on gas / maintenance (hard to imagine buying a $50k Tesla to save a bit of $$ each year on gas).

That said, as the technology advances and charging stations become more common, the inconvenience factor will be overcome. Tesla is soon to release new battery cells in its Model S and Cybertruck that reportedly have 500+ mile range. Now these cars (Model S and Cybertruck) are far too expensive to be mainstream vehicles, but that technology is coming to their other more mainstream cars over the next few years. Solid state battery technology is also advancing and should likely be in production vehicles in a meaningful way in the next decade. Couple those more energy-dense batteries with a greater supply of charging stations and EVs will become far more common (probably the norm in the next two decades).
Click to expand...
 
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SLUPSU said:
Well.....

www.autoweek.com

Some California EV Owners Allegedly Switch Back to Gas

California’s EV owners supposedly switch back to gas-powered cars they find charging is a hassle, research shows.
www.autoweek.com www.autoweek.com
Click to expand...

Click bait title. No crap some people switch back. 20% switch back to ICE cars, so 80% don't, which I find impressive given how relatively new the technology is and the low percentage of offerings in the segment. Just about every person I know whose gotten rid of their Tesla did so for reasons that were not EV specific (namely poor build quality).
 
I don’t think ‘inconvenience factor’ is the right description- it’s just different. Having the equivalent of a gas pump in your garage that pumps ‘gas’ at $0.80/ gallon is super convenient. Waking up every morning with a ‘full tank’ is convenient. The flip side of that convenience is that a 7 hr trip might require an extra hour of charging.
 
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Plug-in hybrids seem like the best of both worlds to use electric only on short commutes and gas for long trips. The problem is that there are no compelling plug-in hybrids out there. No Tesla or Mustang.
 
LMTLION said:
Plug-in hybrids seem like the best of both worlds to use electric only on short commutes and gas for long trips. The problem is that there are no compelling plug-in hybrids out there. No Tesla or Mustang.
Click to expand...

Not much incentive to invest in a stopgap product given what it takes to develop an entirely new car.
 
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fastlax16 said:
Click bait title. No crap some people switch back. 20% switch back to ICE cars, so 80% don't, which I find impressive given how relatively new the technology is and the low percentage of offerings in the segment. Just about every person I know whose gotten rid of their Tesla did so for reasons that were not EV specific (namely poor build quality).
Click to expand...
You saying Tesla has poor build quality?
 
BringBackStoneys said:
I don’t think ‘inconvenience factor’ is the right description- it’s just different. Having the equivalent of a gas pump in your garage that pumps ‘gas’ at $0.80/ gallon is super convenient. Waking up every morning with a ‘full tank’ is convenient. The flip side of that convenience is that a 7 hr trip might require an extra hour of charging.
Click to expand...
Convince is going ten days - two weeks without worrying about fueling vs plugging in the car every single night and unplugging it every single morning.
 
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Lion Son/Husband/Father said:
And if you biff one, it could take months to get a bumper or hood etc.
Im all in, in ten years.
Click to expand...

I'd still consider one as a second car. Part of me likes the idea of replacing my R with a model 3 performance or long range but it'd be a really tight fit in my garage (The R is a tight fit and the 3 is 2 inches wider.) Vroom offered me 41 grand for it though soooooo.
 
fastlax16 said:
I'd still consider one as a second car. Part of me likes the idea of replacing my R with a model 3 performance or long range but it'd be a really tight fit in my garage (The R is a tight fit and the 3 is 2 inches wider.) Vroom offered me 41 grand for it though soooooo.
Click to expand...
STOP IT. like when I was hot to move a few months ago, I kill selling my house and get killed buying the new one:cool:
 
BBG65 said:
Not saying there aren't any, but I don't know of a single recharging station. How long does it take to charge? I assume there will be lines. I think an electric car would be fine for local travel if you can charge it at home. but I wouldn't attempt to travel in one.
Click to expand...
They have charging stations at the local Walmart, almost all the Walgreen's (near me) and a few Royal Farms.
I was surprised to see so many.
 
BBrown said:
They have charging stations at the local Walmart, almost all the Walgreen's (near me) and a few Royal Farms.
I was surprised to see so many.
Click to expand...
The Sheetz in Blairsville along Route 22 has a couple charging stations. That's the only one in Indiana County I've ever seen, but I haven't really looked too hard.
 
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Here is a good primer on charging EVs with specificity to the ID.4

 
Obliviax said:
Thanks..totally agree....the biggest hangup is the long trips. And even if you decide to eat while charging, the stations aren't always near the food meaning you'll brown bag it in the front seat while you charge because the walk to the charger from the eatery is too far. So in the end, you've got a very expensive car that really isn't cost justifiable at $1500/year savings and has limited convenience requiring you to also have a second car (that isn't free) or rent a car for long trips.

If you get 20 mpg and drive 15,000 miles with gas being $3/gallon, you get 15,000/20 x $3 or $2,250. an EV typically costs, on average, $9 per 200 miles. So that cost is $675.

Having said that, you aren't seeing many people go back to gas cars from EVs
Click to expand...
As the EVs become more popular and present a larger % of cars on the road, eventually the state & feds are going to have to tax for transportation finding.

Currently, fed gas tax = $0.0184 /mile & state = $0.0587/mile. In your example your cost in tax = $578

Many states are experimenting with the tax/mileage.....Washington's is $0.02/mile;

Pa would have to charge a tax of approximately $0.03/mile to cover the state tax and the feds would need to charge $0.012/mile.
 
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step.eng69 said:
As the EVs become more popular and present a larger % of cars on the road, eventually the state & feds are going to have to tax for transportation finding.

Currently, fed gas tax = $0.184 /mile & state = $0.587/mile. In your example your cost in tax = $578

Many states are experimenting with the tax/mileage.....Washington's is $0.02/mile;

Pa would have to charge a tax of approximately $0.03/mile to cover the state tax and the feds would need to charge $0.012/mile.
Click to expand...
200.gif
 
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