Hopefully cooler heads prevail. It’s a tough spot for anyone to be in.
I think this Navy Captain deserves a medal
- Thread starter Nitt1300
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That’s understood during war. This ship wasn’t at war. The right thing to do is get enough people off the ship to keep some social distancing. The cruise ship comparison is stupid. On the cruise ship, sleeping arrangements are just a little different than on an aircraft carrier.
Boat captains are not robots. When you are at sea as you know you are on readiness. The captain was an over the top capable captain he made it through power school and was a fighter jock. The two most elite navy programs. Something is amiss with the flag officer. Did the captain go to the flag? Did the flag tell him his career was over. Did the flag go around his back to the sec? And why did the CNO support the captain?
It was a non-apology apology. He didn't actually back down from anything he said or from the action he took, he just tried to spin his own words in a more favorable light for himself.
Let's not have any illusions about why this captain was fired.
He was fired because the top leadership of the US Navy thinks that turning an aircraft carrier into a disease laboratory & burying a couple of hundred sailors at sea in secrecy is a better outcome than a news story that might set off the stable genius into a childish rage.
The captain refused to accept that. He valued the sailor's lives over PR, and sacrificed his career for it. The captain is a human being. And he will be fine -- he will be snapped up by corporate America and make double or triple his Navy salary.
The Navy loses his talent, which is too bad because they're burning through Navy secretaries and assistant secretaries at the rate of 1 every few weeks now.
Let's not have any illusions about why this captain was fired.
He was fired because the top leadership of the US Navy thinks that turning an aircraft carrier into a disease laboratory & burying a couple of hundred sailors at sea in secrecy is a better outcome than a news story that might set off the stable genius into a childish rage.
The captain refused to accept that. He valued the sailor's lives over PR, and sacrificed his career for it. The captain is a human being. And he will be fine -- he will be snapped up by corporate America and make double or triple his Navy salary.
The Navy loses his talent, which is too bad because they're burning through Navy secretaries and assistant secretaries at the rate of 1 every few weeks now.
Interesting take on the "Memo".
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2020/04/07/the_crozier_memo_an_analysis_115179.html
https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2020/04/07/the_crozier_memo_an_analysis_115179.html
His comments, calling the captain "stupid" was really stupid. I mean, jeebus stupid. I understand the captain being relieved of command and even if you disagree, would understand that it was defensible. But that comment was really just dumb by any measure.
Yesterday the CIC said the Captain was an honorable man with a stellar career. Said he would look into what happened and that the Captain should not have his career ruined over it. Lets see how it plays out.
This one had a whole lotta stooopid all around. You can’t let an entire aircraft carrier full of Coronavirus keep spreading. The navy needed to move a lot more quickly to find a solution. The typical hurry up and wait pace was putting lives at risk. That’s unacceptable. Everyone up that chain should resign immediately for being incompetent.
IDK, I try to keep away from the "they shoudas". Where do you put into port? who wants a ship full of c-19 carriers docking? Where do they go if not on the ship? What hospital possibly has room for 1,000 contagious sailors? what other resources can fill in for this ship, one of the worlds most powerful ships, if they are out of action? how do you keep this information from enemies in SE Asia? There are probably 100 more logistical issues. And, I have to say, this guy sending this in regular email with no authority or classification was also "stupid" (although, I never say that to the press who simply does not understand that an aircraft carrier isn't the same at the shift manager and the kid running the drive up lane). So I have no problem with him being replaced. I have no problem with an investigation and future "best practices" being defined. I do have a problem with a nave spokesperson saying the Captain was "stupid" and I agree with him resigning (or being forced) to resign.
You seriously don't understand that the Captain went outside the chain of command because he had lost faith in it? Do you really think he wouldn't have tried to follow it first? The man made a conscious decision to take a career ending hit to save his crew. No officer rises to that level without knowing exactly what doing that meant- and he did it anyway, because he felt that he had to
you can NEVER go outside the chain of command. Especially when using an unclassified email that tells the enemy the state of the ship. Like it or not, military people sign up knowing they may need to give their lives. The men storming the beaches on D-Day knew they had a great chance if dying that day. They didn't say "hey, don't you think there is a better way? Maybe we just double down on the effort coming up through Italy?" Just not the way the military works. Sometimes you have no good options.
There was no plan being communicated. That was the main issue as far as I can see. Pull a couple of cruise ships into port so they could separate. I hear those aren’t doing much else these days. The captain wasn’t being informed of any plan. That’s why he did the end run.
Again, you simply cannot "end run" you leadership. If you do so, rightly or wrongly, you will lose your command. Especially when you communicate sensitive material over non-classified channels. That is just the way it is. You may not like it, but that's the way it is.
Rightfully so as he really screwed this thing up IMO. Then he doubled down with the idiotic speech to the crew.
You have it wrong. Die for a cause, sure. Die because leadership is incompetent when not even at war? Hell no. That’s just plain stoooopid.
That’s why he’s no longer Captain. All I said was the buffoons up his chain that forced his hand should all resign or be relieved as well.
you need to take a step back from this. you seem INCREDIBLY emotional about all of this.
We signed up knowing we might have to give up our lives in a fight, not because some pencil necked civilian couldn't be bothered with a medical emergency which put both our lives and our readiness at risk. A good CO will do what he needs to do to save his men- including going outside of a chain of command and regardless of the personal cost.
I was Navy- so yeah, I'm invested in this.
Yep, and now they have to get a solid leader on that ship in a big way and fix the morale of a carrier that they jacked up.
I can see the folks that never served are still doubling down....Modly resigning kind of signals he jacked it up and tried to make Crozier his fall guy because he was embarrassed. It didn't turn out like he thought it would. If there were a war today, you would have to beat people off with a stick that would want to be under Crozier's command. Military personnel get following orders and that wasn't the problem here.
hey man, however you want to live your life. passive aggressively acting like no one else can have an opinion unless they were in the navy? take a deep breath man... i'm all for passion, but i guess i don't see the need to get so incensed in something that has no direct affect on me. but hey, that's me. get your blood pressure up all you want!
I don’t know who here served and who didn’t. But if you have an opinion on this subject, you should at least disclose your veteran status.
I’ll start. US Army, 4 years enlisted. Another 5ish in the reserves. My opinions are mine. See above if interested.
I don’t think that’s the case. You can voice your opinion all you want. I’m just not sure how you can think it would carry much weight with people who actually signed up to serve if you were never in their shoes. That’s why I suggested we all disclose our status when offering our thoughts.
You can certainly have an opinion- but if you never served, it don't weigh much with me.
So I guess that people who never served shouldn't be allowed to vote since even their opinions don't matter.
Thats what I thought you'd say. Here, I thought people joined up to protect democracy and the Constitution. My bad.
It's ok. I don't think the Founding Fathers could be expected to foresee what a bunch of whiney, entitled assholes we would wind up with.
Fair enough...but there has to be some kind of middle ground before sending out an insecure email to two dozen people that gets published in the press (let alone the Chinese secret service or whatever they are). Again, this isn't managing the drive up and mcdonalds or even managing a destroyer tender. I am not defending the pencil necks, but you have to understand the pencilnecks come and go...but if you destroy the institution you've really screwed the pooch.
you may be correct...or he may not have had visibility into it and panicked. It is a unique situation that probably has never been seen before. So the investigation is valid and we'll see where it goes.
If you go back and look at my opening post, I saw this coming exactly as it went down. I'll make another prediction now- we won't hear much more about this past the next news cycle. He'll be quietly retired as an O-6.
Actually, a substantial % of the colonists were against fighting for independence. They didn't fight and were even against it. Some were called Loyalists and were actively opposed to it.
Yesterday the CIC, also known as POTUS, said the Captain was an honorable man with a stellar career. Said he would look into what happened and that the Captain should not have his career ruined over it. Lets see how it plays out.
USN 4 years enlisted. Touched way more ships post enlistment though.
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First of all, I don't think military service is a necessary qualification for having an opinion on this question. Or actually any question.
That said: Marine Corps. 1976-79. Company E, 1st Marine Radio Battalion, intelligence support.
In my opinion, this is a tough call because nobody comes out looking good -- except arguably the crew of the carrier.
Captain Crozier sent a letter that almost certainly contained classified information (as would have been concluded if submitted through the proper security control officers) to a large audience through unclassified channels.
If he did not himself leak the contents, he had to know the likelihood that they would have been leaked. Hell, anyone paying attention to the news in recent years would have realized that.
Moreover, there is no clear evidence that the higher-ups did not care about or had somehow abandoned the ship and its crew.
Therefore, even though Crozier may have acted for admirable and selfless reasons, he has to be willing to take the hit for breaking the rules and violating the law.
On the other side, the military brass acquitted themselves like the political tools and bureaucrats they've become for the last, oh, 10...20...more years. Their precious careers and advancement are Priority One.
As for Secretary Modly, what can you say. The guy appears to be a prick. Worse than that, a stupid prick. How else to explain him appearing before the crew of the carrier and publicly insulting their former commander.
I don't think the Navy was wrong to relieve Crozier of his command, given all the circumstances. But from all accounts, he appears to be a good officer -- I'd feel fortunate to serve under him -- and should be quietly rehabilitated and allowed to resume his naval career...assuming he recovers from the disease.
The entire episode says something not so good about a number of our institutions, to include the media.
It seems like most people in public life only care about partisan advantage, but the damage being done to our country is longstanding. This crisis has only served to bring it (again) to the surface.
I didn’t serve but I’m totally on your (and certain others) side on this issue. I hate the reflexive, obvious “chain of command” talking points being spewed. Someone or some think tank that someone supports politically says it and they all get in line. Barf.
