Interesting Weekend Results - 11/16-18
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I imagine this should also include redshirt Freshman and True freshman wrestling unattached at 133 so that Seth Gross's ranking is a combination of all 133lb wrestlers for SDSt. University this year. OR......we could base it on how Seth Gross exclusively competes for South Dakota State University. One of those seems much more accurate and fair to the particular wrestler in question.
He took Cenzo to OT, but only because he raced backwards the entire match and Cenzo refused to chase him. At no point in the match did it appear Cenzo was not going to win the match.
So the team should receive a seed, not an individual? If Suriano had decided on immediate surgery and missed the post season, a Penn State substitute should have then received Suriano's second place Big10 seed? If the substitute were to go 0 - 2 in the Big10 tournament should he then also receive an NCAA wildcard based upon Penn State's 125 season W - L record. If he does receive the wild card earned by Penn State at 125, does Penn State's substitute 125 pounder then receive the NCAA seed earned by Penn State's combined 125 efforts?
Yes! Seed the team instead of the individual. This would punish ducking better than any other method I have heard.
It should include the teams record at that weight class in dual meets. It is up to the coach to send his best guy at each weight into the circle. I don't care how they do it, but the duck needs to be punished as a loss on the individual who ducks.
It would be so good for the sport. Bad for the individual at times, but very good for growing the sport. Gross would have wrestled last night if those rules were in place. Warner would have wrestled. Put your best team on the mat or be punished.
So an injured Gross has to wrestle for the good of the sport? Then when he gets injured worse and misses the post season that is good for the sport? THis is one of the worst ideas I have ever heard. Plus, IMHO, Gross wasn't ducking anyone, and in fact I don't think it happens much at all, except in the minds of fans on message boards.
You don't think it happens much? It happens constantly because it is rewarded. Show up and wrestle. There will be actual injuries where the individual will be punished, but the greater participation in duals would far and away outweigh the negatives. The current system rewards a guy for missing weight, going to a movie with the girl friend, or anything else vs going out and risking a loss in a dual. Come up with something better if you have an idea. It is terrible as is.
This conversation is not new, of course. Without referring to any one wrestler's injury, there is no doubt that the current system hurts the sport. You simply cannot have a system where the regular season duals mean next to nothing, which creates disincentives to wrestle with ANY type of injury in November or December. When marquee matchups of the sport's stars are routinely missed, how can it not hurt the sport? I don't have the solution, but something needs to change, that much is obvious.
The current system is the same system that has been in place forever. Has something changed that I missed. This is the same old BS argument that duals don't matter, which is getting real old.
Maybe just have a system in place where anytime there was going to be a ranked matchup and it didn’t take place for one reason (ducking) or another (legit injury) it was on a report. This report would be handed out at final coaches vote for seedings and let the coaches decide.
In the report you could have name of opponent, last match wrestled before no show and next match after no show.
For example, I know Gross wrestled last week. If he shows up and wrestles next weekend that would be a major mark against him.
Similar to last year when NATO wrestled Friday, missed Suriano Sunday and then wrestled following week.
If all this info was put together in a nice report at seeding meeting maybe it would help?
In the report you could have name of opponent, last match wrestled before no show and next match after no show.
For example, I know Gross wrestled last week. If he shows up and wrestles next weekend that would be a major mark against him.
Similar to last year when NATO wrestled Friday, missed Suriano Sunday and then wrestled following week.
If all this info was put together in a nice report at seeding meeting maybe it would help?
Somehow the NCAA could do a point system that figures in a lost to a top 5? wrestler as no worst than a win against a non ranked wrestler.
The PIAA used a formula in football for smaller schools who lost to bigger schools to determine District rankings.
Come up with a point ranking system that would entice the top 5 matchups.
The PIAA used a formula in football for smaller schools who lost to bigger schools to determine District rankings.
Come up with a point ranking system that would entice the top 5 matchups.
You guys forget that seeds protect deserving wrestlers of an unexpected early loss in a tourney .
When a wrestler gets mis-seeded (lower than he should) it's his opponents that suffer
When a wrestler gets mis-seeded (lower than he should) it's his opponents that suffer
This is exactly right. In fact it came up w DT’s draw at Worlds. Our coaches even commented on it - the best guys don’t care where they are seeded and won’t change any behaviors to get seeded #1. The international seeding formula rewarded competition but the top guys didn’t care.
How about last year if Snyder was dinged for not competing much. He is unseeded as a result... think he cares? No. Think we care if Nevills drew him in Rd 1?
Right, seeding isn't merely a benefit bestowed on a wrestler, its purpose is to assure some degree of fairness to everyone in the bracket.
I do get the complaints, even if Gross appears to be legitimately injured. But, hypothetically, let's say he's not and he wrestles the following week. The seeding committee could construe yesterday as a 'loss' to Gross in any tiebreaking scenario as it also applies to scenarios where Fix and Gross are otherwise effectively tied. So if Fix and Gross are undefeated at the end of the season, the seeding committee could seed Fix 1 and Gross 2 reasoning that Gross 'lost' to Fix for the limited purpose of the seeding question. That way you preserve the integrity of the overall seeding but punish Gross if it comes to that.
There are only a few guys were seed doesn’t matter (Nolf, SLee). And in those situations, they should be seeded 1 regardless of injury, matches entered etc, since it will only screw someone else if they get lower see (see Kemerrer last year)
Gross is a great wrestler but there’s a handful of guys that can knock him off this year. In these situations seeding is important
Gross is a great wrestler but there’s a handful of guys that can knock him off this year. In these situations seeding is important
Ideally it would be nice to have a stronger 125 pounder, but this year it is not going to matter.
The system as it is is very broken, so we need something a bit different to entice these guys to show up and wrestle. The system right now is all risk/no reward for the guys who do take all comers. It might be a bit drastic to treat it as a loss altogether, but there must be something. The positive point system might have legs. Will Lizak have mono today? Will White have sore ribs? Can't wait.
Because it's "been in place forever" makes it a good system? Really? This is the same juvenile argument, that's the way it's always been or everybody is doing it, Mom!
Lame.
i doubt Gross is sweating out a 1 vs 2 seed in making a decision about a dual in November.
As some of you pointed out, there are some major flaws to my suggestion. Not sure it can be done without some drawbacks.
First of all, we are probably labeling it wrong. It's rarely "ducking", it's being conservative. If a dual is competitive we don't see it often.
If a team is a sure loss or already has the dual wrapped up is where this happens most. Coaches perhaps resting a guy who had a hard time making weight or is a little dinged up.
Wrestling constantly missing out on main events hurts the sport though, I wish something would be done to improve it.
First of all, we are probably labeling it wrong. It's rarely "ducking", it's being conservative. If a dual is competitive we don't see it often.
If a team is a sure loss or already has the dual wrapped up is where this happens most. Coaches perhaps resting a guy who had a hard time making weight or is a little dinged up.
Wrestling constantly missing out on main events hurts the sport though, I wish something would be done to improve it.
Good for Tony Dungy. I'm a Colts fan and have always liked and admired Dungy--a great person as well as coach! As a Minnesota alum, he's helping out his alma mater. He was a quarterback for the Gophers way back, before switching to cornerback in the pros.
I think that’s right... if coaches preach that competition and duals matter it will help some. But no system is perfect. I like the idea of printing a report of a teams duals and who wrestled when as another data point. At the end of the day though I really think fans worry about seeds a lot more than most wrestlers. These guys are used to believing they are the baddest man on the mat and expect to beat the guy in front of them.
You sound like you want to see injured wrestlers wrestle, did you enjoy seeing Conel wrestle earlier this years? I certainly wish he didn’t go on the mat. If your opponent suspects your injuries they go after that. I personally was very uneasy watching that.
You must of loved it when Hunter Steibler was out there with no use of his arms a couple of years ago.
This is a very physical sport and injuries are part of it and don’t see how adding a penalty for getting injured helps
What;s lame is saying something is broken when nothing has changed. Why wasn't it broken 10 years ago? And name calling instead of presenting an actual argument doesn't help your case. I would expect better from a PSU fan.
I like the idea it simply means that the failure to wrestle has consequences. A perfect example was Snyder the last two years - at the time acnowledged maybe the best p4p in the world but to be given a free pass to the top seed, not in my book. when you only wrestle 8-10 matches a year you should not get the #1 seed. I had no issue with Nolf giving up the #1 seed last year even though it was obvious to all he has no equal.
A missed match shouldn't go down as a loss, but who you miss should factor in seeding, and the top 8 should have a minimum amount of matches say 85-90% of scheduled duals (1-2 misses per year max regardless of the seeds you miss wrestling). Hell if your the #1 wrestler you should win out from anywhere in the bracket.
The top 8 seeds should be earned, and if you miss a match against one there should be a consequence as you are denying the chance to that other wrestler (not to mention the fans) as well. How many times has tan Tom done this over the past few years, probably a dozen with no down side?
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Just playing devil's advocate here though, what if an elite wrestler switches weights over the course of the season? Now you maybe have the situation where the results of one wrestler has possibly earned two bids, or the seed at two separate weights. That's really the only thing that muddies the waters.
Your logic is nonexistent. Who said it wasn't broken 10 years ago? It was. This really isn't that difficult. The system needs amending so that Duals are more important and marquee matchups are not so easily avoided. Period.
Just because no one has come up with a perfect solution yet, does not mean nothing should be done. Any improvement in the current farce is welcome.
Not sure if it's been mentioned yet, but perhaps some will recall that this is the same Seth Gross who put his undefeated record on the line, and many said put his Hodge possibilities on the line, by bumping up less than 12 months ago to wrestle the top 141 pounder in the country.
I wouldn't quite place Fix on the level of the #1 wrestler in the country at his weight and a returning national finalist, as Meredith was.
I wouldn't quite place Fix on the level of the #1 wrestler in the country at his weight and a returning national finalist, as Meredith was.
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anyone who thinks Gross ducked someone needs to go spend some time on the mat themselves (regardless of age)
I'm not sure that that would be the savior either, as a lot of people who wrestled still think that wrestlers duck other wrestlers.
Lets say last season Snyder doesn't wrestle.a .meet until big 10s . Don't seed him now is it fair that he draws the #1 seed first round? Not to.the #1 seed. There are more kids affected by not seeding than just the kid you want to penalize
I hate to jump in late but are we talking about a guy that went up a weight to wrestle Meredith? Seems like he’s earned the benefit of the doubt.
See post #113 above.
I was referring to others, certainly not myself. I find the whole "ducking" idea as ridiculous as I do most calls for "stalling."
The problem that I see here is that some people want to put a system in place that defines the wrestler's or coach's INTENT. Let's take this to the extreme. I mentioned in another thread that I would like to see Zahid bump up today and take on Martin. Will he do it? We'll have to wait and see, but according to the framework being suggested, if he goes at 174, he should be penalized because he could have gone against a better opponent by moving up a weight. By not doing so, he is "ducking" competition. I know that sounds absurd to most people, but there is room for that kind of logic if we start to decide what we believe is the intent of a wrestler without having any inside information.
You could put a system in place with team doctor or 3rd party physician signing off on a missed bout due to injury/illness. Although then you start having HIPPA laws coming into play. I'm not sure how to get around that.
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