Is the anger/apathy now as bad as it was during the Paterno "dark years"?

[Obliviax]

A reasonable take. But with two glaring exceptions:

1. The offensive line and running game is among the very worst in the nation. And no I am not exaggerating. And this is not a new development - it has been this way for most of Franklin’s tenure.

2. The team (all phases) lacks the prerequisite mental and physical toughness needed to succeed at a high level. This has also existed through Franklin’ tenure.

This has been the undoing of the program and has delivered us to the current state: a mediocre program in a mediocre conference. And it appears to be getting - slowly but surely - worse.

It is time for a change.

If I may....

OL has been a problem for years and not sure why. We get our fair share of top prospects. We lost Thorpe, who I thought was going to be a good one. I am also not sold on our RBs. Key is the best of the bunch but none of them has shown much talent in picking a hole, jump cuts, cutting against the grain, creating. We've got Lovett, who can't pass block or break even the lightest tackle. And we have Key/Cain who don't seem to have great vision so far nor do they have that acceleration needed.

I feel like the team has mental toughness as they've played good games against tOSU and UM. They played tough against Wiscy and Auburn but They don't seem to react well to in-game adversity. Once they lose momentum, they rarely get it back.

 

[MacNit07]

If I may....

OL has been a problem for years and not sure why. We get our fair share of top prospects. We lost Thorpe, who I thought was going to be a good one. I am also not sold on our RBs. Key is the best of the bunch but none of them has shown much talent in picking a hole, jump cuts, cutting against the grain, creating. We've got Lovett, who can't pass block or break even the lightest tackle. And we have Key/Cain who don't seem to have great vision so far nor do they have that acceleration needed.

I feel like the team has mental toughness as they've played good games against tOSU and UM. They played tough against Wiscy and Auburn but They don't seem to react well to in-game adversity. Once they lose momentum, they rarely get it back.

Agree with most if not all of what you have stated. OLine and running game needs to be (and I believe can be) fixed immediately. There is talent there! No way we missed on all these recruits - both in Oline and RBs. Fixing that will provide a margin for mistakes.

I do think the team has some level of mental toughness…certainly they have not quit. But we lack that next level/killer instinct to close out games. Nice efforts against Bucky and Auburn. Decent against O$U. Pathetic against Illinois, not good against Iowa and Michigan. All in all. - mediocre. May come from being pushed around so much…especially on offense (but let’s not excuse the defense - run defense has been just mediocre).

 

[BBrown]

Agree with most if not all of what you have stated. OLine and running game needs to be (and I believe can be) fixed immediately. There is talent there! No way we missed on all these recruits - both in Oline and RBs. Fixing that will provide a margin for mistakes.

I do think the team has some level of mental toughness…certainly they have not quit. But we lack that next level/killer instinct to close out games. Nice efforts against Bucky and Auburn. Decent against O$U. Pathetic against Illinois, not good against Iowa and Michigan. All in all. - mediocre. May come from being pushed around so much…especially on offense (but let’s not excuse the defense - run defense has been just mediocre).

Don't you think they (the coaching staff) would have done that if they could?
How, all of a sudden, do we end up with a healthy Noah Cain or decrease the 40 times of the RB's from 4.7 to 4.2 in 3 games?
I believe its not as easy as you think.

 

[Obliviax]

Don't you think they (the coaching staff) would have done that if they could?
How, all of a sudden, do we end up with a healthy Noah Cain or decrease the 40 times of the RB's from 4.7 to 4.2 in 3 games?
I believe its not as easy as you think.

Agreed and a lot of interchangeable parts.

First, SC who was never a great runner, has been reduced to almost zero in the RPO. And what is an RPO (stands for "option") when there is no QB running option? I'll answer my own question, it is worthless.

Second, both Cain and Key have gotten injured throughout the season plus Key had two fumbles in the first three games. Lovett can't block. Ford has been more like a Tempo than a Shelby Cobra.

Then we lost the guy who was going to be our RG but still should have been a good OL. We also lost CJ Thorpe.

Although most teams have injuries, we've had a ton over the last several years. SC among them.

 

[mgkpsu]

Agreed. This program has faced unprecedented scandal and sanctions in the past decade. The past two years seem "tame" compared to all of that.

The other thing is that save for a wonky 2020 season, this program hasn't stared down 3-4 win seasons like it did during the "dark years."

And while frustrating, most of the losses have been in competitive games. That wasn't the case 20 years ago. Those games felt lost at opening kickoff.

Next season absolutely could be a 4 win season. Look what a few injuries did to this season.

 

[Midnighter2]

Comments give you a good sense of the feelings of PSU Twitter users….which is fairly balanced between the ‘fire/keep Franklin crowds’.

 

[fastlax16]

Next season absolutely could be a 4 win season. Look what a few injuries did to this season.

Willing to put money on that? I’ll take the over.

 

[Jerry]

Hardly anyone ever questioned Paterno no matter how stupid the play calling got. They just assumed he knew best, played the best players, did the best he could, etc. Plus you knew he wasn't leaving and wasn't going to get fired.

Now, every bozo on here thinks they have all of the answers

Gotta tell you, Joe took a lot of criticism in the last 10 years of his tenure...here and elsewhere...even after emerging from the "dark years" and righting the ship somewhat. I chimed in myself on occasion.

A lot of people -- I was one -- thought he stayed on far too long when the program badly needly new blood and a fresh start. (Then one fateful day we ended up getting a fresh start...not the one anybody had in mind.)

Anyway, it's always dicey to criticize a legend and icon of American sports. You do it gingerly. Because after all, he didn't get to be a legend and icon for nothing.

 

[Jerry]

I don't want Franklin going anywhere. I think the team will be highly competitive over the next 2-3 years and PSU will rightly give him a contract extension.

I would be disappointed if the admin listens to any of the online idiots calling for Franklin to be fired.

My concerns about Franklin have increased the last two years, but I've never called for him to be fired nor do I think he should be fired nor do I think there's any chance in hell that he will be fired.

However, I do think he may be played out, and I do think he'll be offered...and accept...a job elsewhere at the end of this season.

 

[Cosmos]

I have been in a state of apathy since December of 2014. It didn't take me long to realize that Franklin isn't good enough. The key moment was when he refused to fire Donovan, Rahne, Hand and Gattis. He wasn't smart enough to realize that he should have left them in Nashville. He wasn't smart enough to fire them after his first season. Heck, he wasn't smart enough to fire them after his second season. Sandy had to make him shake things up. Why, because Franklin is not accountable and won't admit he is wrong. Just my opinion.

^^ This. ^^ And then CJF miraculously caught lightening in a bottle with SB and Offensive Coordinator JM, thereby granting him a stay from termination.

We hired CJF because he did 'less with more' at Vandy. He comes here. He has arguably the finest facilities in college football. Heck, even Bill Obrien marveled over it. CJF is smack dab in the middle of fertile recruiting territory, all within a 300-mile driving radius. Now what pray tell is the problem?! That's the question you Tories need to be answering.

But hey, if you're content being an also-ran and Ohio State's door mat then more power to you. Just know your game day experience won't be what it used to be as people start staying home. You see, there's a beast out there. It's called inflation and "experts" say it will last through 2022. The beast is ravenous as it feeds on peoples' discretionary income. The clock's ticking, Sandy. Tick tock, tick tock.

 

[Ranger Dan]

No, this is nothing compared to the dark years. Yes, Joe had a tremendous balance in the “bank of trust”, but the teams were so clearly inept and disjointed that it was worse than right/left tribal politics today. Loyalists defending Joe were seemingly outnumbered by those that were convinced that Joe’s time was over.

 

[JDale83]

no. people were insanely angry in the dark years because nobody had seen anything that bad since literally the 1950s. Now the mediocre seasons are more recent. Also this is not nearly as bad

Try like the 30s. Rip Engle never had a losing season in the 50s. Joe never had one until 88.

 

[Madsol]

Try like the 30s. Rip Engle never had a losing season in the 50s. Joe never had one until 88.

I think you're right. I'm taxing my memory here but I seem to recall seeing a stat when we had the losing season in 1988 that that broke a streak of 49 consecutive non-losing seasons, which, if correct, would date back to the 30s. Maybe someone can fact check me.

 

[19333lion]

My concerns about Franklin have increased the last two years, but I've never called for him to be fired nor do I think he should be fired nor do I think there's any chance in hell that he will be fired.

However, I do think he may be played out, and I do think he'll be offered...and accept...a job elsewhere at the end of this season.

Wow, Jerry, what is the basis for your scenario? After all, if the PSU fanbase sees the warts, what makes you think ADs at other major football schools don't? He would have to be offered a job at a school that would make it worth his while to leave. There aren't many that can do that. Among the few who can, their expectations are also very high year in and year out. I just can't see anyone offering him a better package and better prospects for success. I must admit though, that I somewhat hope you are right and that he does this after the early signing period.

 

[MacNit07]

Don't you think they (the coaching staff) would have done that if they could?
How, all of a sudden, do we end up with a healthy Noah Cain or decrease the 40 times of the RB's from 4.7 to 4.2 in 3 games?
I believe its not as easy as you think.

Sorry, let me clarify, I mean next year with a new coach. You don’t solve that kind of issue in season…in fact it has not been solved for 8 seasons.

 

[Jerry]

Wow, Jerry, what is the basis for your scenario? After all, if the PSU fanbase sees the warts, what makes you think ADs at other major football schools don't? He would have to be offered a job at a school that would make it worth his while to leave. There aren't many that can do that. Among the few who can, their expectations are also very high year in and year out. I just can't see anyone offering him a better package and better prospects for success. I must admit though, that I somewhat hope you are right and that he does this after the early signing period.

Yeah, your point is well taken. His prospects at places like LSU and USC have likely taken a hit over the last month. Certainly the fan chatter at those schools seems a lot less enthusiastic about the guy.

On the other hand, coaches are dropping like flies all over the land. The focus has been on LSU and USC. But now Washington and Virginia Tech are available. And there's a very good chance that Florida will be as well before all is said and done.

Here's the key question in my mind: does Franklin want to stay at Penn State? I question whether he does...but I may be projecting my own discouragement as a fan into the coach's brain, thinking he may be discouraged as well and would welcome a fresh start somewhere else.

The irony is that his refusal to shut down the speculation may have created a distraction that has detracted from the team's performance, which in turn may have made him a less attractive candidate. Oh well, this is interesting fodder for message boards, but at the end of the day nobody except Franklin knows what's in the man's head.

 

[marshall23]

No

 

[BlueLion]

My concerns about Franklin have increased the last two years, but I've never called for him to be fired nor do I think he should be fired nor do I think there's any chance in hell that he will be fired.

However, I do think he may be played out, and I do think he'll be offered...and accept...a job elsewhere at the end of this season.

I don't think Franklin believes he's "playded out" at Penn State. It's very rare that a coach leaves a top program with a bunch of talented players and a top recruiting class with some real game changers. I think he stays.

 

[Jerry]

I don't think Franklin believes he's "playded out" at Penn State. It's very rare that a coach leaves a top program with a bunch of talented players and a top recruiting class with some real game changers. I think he stays.

I think the odds are better today that he stays than was the case one month ago.

The next few weeks should be very interesting.

 

[19333lion]

I think the odds are better today that he stays than was the case one month ago.

The next few weeks should be very interesting.

If we win out, things will calm down. If we don't, look out below.

 

[MacNit07]

If we win out, things will calm down. If we don't, look out below.

Go on the road and beat Michigan State? Will be happy if we beat Rutgers.

 

[BlueLion]

I think the odds are better today that he stays than was the case one month ago.

The next few weeks should be very interesting.

You just pulled those odds from where the sun doesn't shine. Franklin leaving was nothing but conjecture.

 

[Jerry]

You just pulled those odds from where the sun doesn't shine. Franklin leaving was nothing but conjecture.

Odd statement to make since my above comment proved on target. In any case, you pulled your conjecture from the same place. That's all any of us had: conjecture.

Franklin could have put all this "conjecture" to bed a month ago but did not. Why not? Because the equation changed during that period.

Don't get me wrong, I'm glad he's staying and that most of his recruits will still (hopefully) be coming. But don't kid yourself: the whole thing has been a distraction for the team.

Now can we get finally get through one whole year without this BS?

 

[Psugo823]

IMHO not even close.

Let's look at the season:

1. horrible inexcusable loss to ILL
2. Loss to #3 ranked team, at their stadium, because our QB got hurt
3. Loss to tOSU, they outplayed us but we were competitive
4. Loss to UM in a 50/50 game

Let's not overreact. We've got some really good players: two safties, a WR, DE and a punter/kicker that will be all B1G. I would argue that if we had either a healthy starting QB all year (not too much to ask) or Will Levis as a back up we'd be a one or two-loss team.

We need a better OL, to avoid injuries, depth at OL/DL, and to develop QBs so we have two competent people in that position. It is not like the dark years where we were really depleted in both player recruiting and development as well as other deficiencies.

"We need a better OL"

Hey captain obvious, that statement applies for all 8 years of Fraud Franklin's tenure.

 

[Psugo823]

Comments give you a good sense of the feelings of PSU Twitter users….which is fairly balanced between the ‘fire/keep Franklin crowds’.

View embedded media

He will go 7-5 with Allar just like he did with Hackenberg

 

[PSUEngineer89]

From my perspective contrasting the "dark years" vs now.

Dark Years: Prevailing sentiment was sadness that time had passed the old guy, then elation when he turned things around.

Now: Tired and ready to move on.

Now, it goes without saying that there's no way those two sentiments captured everyone's feelings. Just what I'm sensing.

 

[fastlax16]

From my perspective contrasting the "dark years" vs now.

Dark Years: Prevailing sentiment was sadness that time had passed the old guy, then elation when he turned things around.

Now: Tired and ready to move on.

Now, it goes without saying that there's no way those two sentiments captured everyone's feelings. Just what I'm sensing.

Sentiments vs the results on the field are different things. One losing season during a pandemic shortened 9 game season that as originally cancelled followed by a season with 4 losses by one score or less (to date) =/= 4 losing seasons out of 5 with most losses being lopsided and non-competitive.

That stretch included an 18 point loss to a Mac team and double digit losses to USC, Toledo, Pitt, OSU x2, Michigan x2, Miami, Wisconsin x2, Boston College x2, Purdue, Iowa, Northwestern, Michigan State. 18 games where the team scored 10 points or fewer.

This year feels a bit like 07, although I think this team would beat that one.

 

[dbonsick]

Seriously.

I don't know a single alum, outside of message boards, who is at all happy with the current state of affairs. Most of us would love to see him walk out the door on his own, but don't want to piss away the $ for the ridiculous buyout option that he was handed.

If he is given another red cent for anything other than assistants' salary, the noise will definitely start to grow. And if there is anything else spent on facilities/equipment beyond much-needed stadium improvements, then it had better come from donations, and not with additional debt.

He doesn't deserve another raise outside of his current contract before achieving consecutive top 10 finishes, and even then he won't be anywhere close to sniffing a national championship. He's just not the guy for all that!

There are “alums” and then there are “donors” and the two can be one and the same or they can be very different. Just because you as an alum or a group of alumni and are frustrated with the program doesn’t mean the Athletic Director or the head coach are feeling pressure. If major donors —and,yes, PSU still has many — start pulling back that is a different story.

 

[fastlax16]

There are “alums” and then there are “donors” and the two can be one and the same or they can be very different. Just because you as an alum or a group of alumni and are frustrated with the program doesn’t mean the Athletic Director or the head coach are feeling pressure. If major donors —and,yes, PSU still has many — start pulling back that is a different story.

we should aspire to be like Tennessee where we let the twitter mob dictate coaching decisions.

 

[Still in State College]

For me the "dark years" was a series of misses at the QB position. Because of that you has QB's playing that just weren't good enough. Couple that with a lot of misses at the skill positions and you had what you had.

 

[JDale83]

I think you're right. I'm taxing my memory here but I seem to recall seeing a stat when we had the losing season in 1988 that that broke a streak of 49 consecutive non-losing seasons, which, if correct, would date back to the 30s. Maybe someone can fact check me.

That is correct

 

[PennStatePigskin]

A reasonable take. But with two glaring exceptions:

1. The offensive line and running game is among the very worst in the nation. And no I am not exaggerating. And this is not a new development - it has been this way for most of Franklin’s tenure.

2. The team (all phases) lacks the prerequisite mental and physical toughness needed to succeed at a high level. This has also existed through Franklin’ tenure.

This has been the undoing of the program and has delivered us to the current state: a mediocre program in a mediocre conference. And it appears to be getting - slowly but surely - worse.

It is time for a change.

Agreed that it’s time for a change. Franklin can’t scapegoat / fire another offensive coordinator this year. Why buy tickets for a 3 1/2 hour commute both ways (plus long exit delays) to see mediocrity?

MacNit07, I agree with the majority of your post save Clifford, #1 on D, #5 on O, several backers. While injuries on the D line really hurt, the defense has played well and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Brent Pry offered a bigger job somewhere

The running backs have no confidence that the OL can open a hole long enough to make hitting a hole hard worth their while. The running backs show no vision when they do hit a hole.

Franklin, a good man is massively overpaid as a coach. Our AD is largely responsible for that as she doesn’t know jack shit about football, facilities, management and a lot more.

 

[PSUEngineer89]

Agreed that it’s time for a change. Franklin can’t scapegoat / fire another offensive coordinator this year. Why buy tickets for a 3 1/2 hour commute both ways (plus long exit delays) to see mediocrity?

MacNit07, I agree with the majority of your post save Clifford, #1 on D, #5 on O, several backers. While injuries on the D line really hurt, the defense has played well and I wouldn’t be surprised to see Brent Pry offered a bigger job somewhere

The running backs have no confidence that the OL can open a hole long enough to make hitting a hole hard worth their while. The running backs show no vision when they do hit a hole.

Franklin, a good man is massively overpaid as a coach. Our AD is largely responsible for that as she doesn’t know jack shit about football, facilities, management and a lot more.

So, the biggest issue in the whole thread is your statement "Our AD is largely responsible...she doesn't know jack shit about football, facilities"

That statement is surely correct.

Why are we sooooo stupid as to hire an incompetent buffoon as an AD? What is wrong with us?

 

[BUFFALO LION]

A major difference is that Joe earned a lot of good will from 1967-1999. He had a buffer that Franklin doesn't enjoy and hasn't earned, although that buffer was mighty thin by the end of 2004. Joe earned around 1 Mill a year at the end of his career. Our Six Million Dollar Man isn't earning the loyalty from the fanbase to see him through a couple more dark years. I wonder how closely the AD and administration monitor relative satisfaction? No one gets stoked from beating MD and Rutgers (and friggin' Villanova). They get awfully damned depressed from losing meaningful games though. James Franklin is a good man. I'm just not sure that he can ever become a great coach, and that's what 107,000 paying customers ultimately want. What say you?

I think the “anger and apathy” is MUCH worse than it was then.

Joe was more than wins and losses. He had people like me believing that it was more important to win the right way than win at all costs. Loyalty and academics meant something. I wasn’t happy when we lost in the “dark years”, but I knew he would eventually turn it around, which he did.

I always thought of Joe as that type of “Grandfather” figure that I never wanted to see leave.

Outside of football, the way he did things had made us one of the most respected Universities in the Country. Even in the business world, when someone would ask me where I went to school, and I said “Penn State”, they would say “WOW!!!” The reputation Joe had given us OUTSIDE of football gave him almost infinite loyalty from people like me.

Now, we are in the era of win at all costs with guys that have as much loyalty as horny male rabbits. If they don’t care, why should we. In the old days, once a kid came to Penn State, he was part of the family forever, win or lose. He was blood.

Now it’s like everyone is a paid mercenary who quits after the going gets tough. Off to the portal they go. Who can you trust to stay???

I could go on and on, but for many, many, many reasons, in this era of dummied down rules and multi-thousand dollar scholarships not being enough, we have MUCH less patience.

I’m still sticking by Franklin. But in this new era of “semi-pro” mentality, it’s just not the same for those of us who lived through Camelot.

 

[Wallace Breen]

Agree with most if not all of what you have stated. OLine and running game needs to be (and I believe can be) fixed immediately. There is talent there! No way we missed on all these recruits - both in Oline and RBs. Fixing that will provide a margin for mistakes.

I do think the team has some level of mental toughness…certainly they have not quit. But we lack that next level/killer instinct to close out games. Nice efforts against Bucky and Auburn. Decent against O$U. Pathetic against Illinois, not good against Iowa and Michigan. All in all. - mediocre. May come from being pushed around so much…especially on offense (but let’s not excuse the defense - run defense has been just mediocre).

The running game will not be fixed for at least two years so long as Yurcich is the OC. His system is built upon Mike Gundy's and requires a very specific skillset at key positions and our roster is devoid of those attributes. This extends beyond the running backs and line to the receivers and QB where we don't have the horses (receiver) or talent profile (QB) to effectively challenge the middle and deep third of the field. Until we rebuild the offense, and yes, we are looking to rebuild, not reload, the running game will not be an asset. MY (and Pry) is a one trick pony. He does one thing and if the talent doesn't match what he does, there will be issues.