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Is this OK?

Nbergbuck

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Mar 31, 2004
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I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
 

I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.

Ask Pegula. At least you will probably not have CTE issues as you age.
 
Ask Pegula. At least you will probably not have CTE issues as you age.
Granted, there are many ways to make millions/billions without actually playing a sport at a high level. What I am saying is the gulf between rich and poor continues to grow. That does not bode well for the country.
 
At least Josh Allen is a Pro and MVP.

Beau Pribula is in the realm of my net worth with 2 Masters, and he hasn't done anything remarkable yet.

Broadly I would say that no- it isn't alright, but it also is what it is. I'm part of the problem as a college football fan who attends games.

I'm actually leaning towards the NFL more and more- which makes me sad but also is more rational than Bryce Underwood getting $10MM.

I will not have rooted more against a kid with him since Chris Simms.

# offtherails
 
At least Josh Allen is a Pro and MVP.

Beau Pribula is in the realm of my net worth with 2 Masters, and he hasn't done anything remarkable yet.

Broadly I would say that no- it isn't alright, but it also is what it is. I'm part of the problem as a college football fan who attends games.

I'm actually leaning towards the NFL more and more- which makes me sad but also is more rational than Bryce Underwood getting $10MM.

I will not have rooted more against a kid with him since Chris Simms.

# offtherails

I work in baseball so I have mixed feelings, but am fairly happy
 
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I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
Philosophically is it OK? Absolutely not. Probably not morally OK either, but it’s a free market in a free ( mostly) society….and somebody is willing to pay. Sort of an inverted world in some cases, but it could be worse. - I guess “bread and circus” is still a thing.
BTW, isn’t Bobby Bonilla still getting paid? 😂
 
Granted, there are many ways to make millions/billions without actually playing a sport at a high level. What I am saying is the gulf between rich and poor continues to grow. That does not bode well for the country.
Josh Allen generates a tremendous amount of revenue for the city of Buffalo. He deserves all he can get
 

I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
Are you one the top ten people in your profession in the entire world?

Do 80,000 people pay hundreds of dollars each to come watch you work?

Do millions of people pay hundreds of dollars to wear shirts, jackets, hats, scarfs, shoes, flags and much more with your employee # or your company’s name?

Do millions watch you work on national television and even stream it online on a global basis?

Does what you do result in your employer making $100 million per year?

Does what you do vastly inflate the value of your employer’s business?

It’s called supply and demand. Massive demand for one of kind talent.

Players are happy to get paid bigly. Owners are happy to pay bigly because they make money hugely. And fans are happy to pay for their entertainment.

Win=win=win.

Until there is an imbalance in that equation nothing will change.
 
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Granted, there are many ways to make millions/billions without actually playing a sport at a high level. What I am saying is the gulf between rich and poor continues to grow. That does not bode well for the country.

Are you admitting all the welfare programs are a failure?

We don't spend 250k per student prek-12 for the students to work min wage jobs. Maybe the poor should put down the round ball and pick up a book.
 
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Granted, there are many ways to make millions/billions without actually playing a sport at a high level. What I am saying is the gulf between rich and poor continues to grow. That does not bode well for the country.
Football salaries have zero to do with the suppression of American wages. I am not sure where you are going with this. Has Josh Allen moved manufacturing to China?
 
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I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
It remember thinking was insane when Ricky Henderson got $3M/yr in MLB, but Yes, It's okay.

These guys are paid a portion of revenue. Fans buy tickets, merch, concessions, and enough people watch on TV to draw astronomical TV money. The NFL stands for "Not For Long" and every player could have their career ended on their next play, or even get paralyzed. Josh Allen may be paid more this year than you did in your entire career, but he will also probably pay more in taxes this year than you did in your career.

I agree that there are issues for Americans in the middle/lower income brackets, but it is absolutely unrelated to how much Josh Allen makes and the two issues shouldn't be conflated.
 
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I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
Some professional athletes and celebrities make an insane amount of money. That said I don't think people like Josh Allen are making you poorer.
 
Granted, there are many ways to make millions/billions without actually playing a sport at a high level. What I am saying is the gulf between rich and poor continues to grow. That does not bode well for the country.
Why not? Those that earn it deserve it
 
Are you one the top ten people in your profession in the entire world?

Do 80,000 people pay hundreds of dollars each to come watch you work?

Do millions of people pay hundreds of dollars to wear shirts, jackets, hats, scarfs, shoes, flags and much more with your employee # or your company’s name?

Do millions watch you work on national television and even stream it online on a global basis?

Does what you do result in your employer making $100 million per year?

Does what you do vastly inflate the value of your employer’s business?

It’s called supply and demand. Massive demand for one of kind talent.

Players are happy to get paid bigly. Owners are happy to pay bigly because they make money hugely. And fans are happy to pay for their entertainment.

Win=win=win.

Until there is an imbalance in that equation nothing will change.
This fan is not "happy" to pay the increasing costs to go to a game or even my increasing youtubeTV/NFL ticket bill, beer/food costs, parking costs, etc. You could say, just don't go/watch. I don't go to as many games as I used to. At some point, it seems there will be a breaking point when the avg fan can't afford it any more.
 

I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
Can you fill a 70,000 seat Stadium? Sports salaries are ridiculous but it's what the market will bear. It has nothing to do with the rich getting richer. It has to do with your perceived worth. Is an actor worth 20 million for a movie? Probably not but if his movie makes 100 million maybe he is. If you want to make that kind of money do those jobs. Of course you might not have the skill set. If not. find a skill that you can do that pays more. Life isn't fair. Well maybe it actually is. Get over it.
 
This fan is not "happy" to pay the increasing costs to go to a game or even my increasing youtubeTV/NFL ticket bill, beer/food costs, parking costs, etc. You could say, just don't go/watch. I don't go to as many games as I used to. At some point, it seems there will be a breaking point when the avg fan can't afford it any more.
I do think--eventually--stadiums will have far less capacity (which drives up interest and price per ticket) as the viewing experience is just far better for most on TV or a streaming network. You don't have to deal with drunk people, the weather, parking, etc.
 
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I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
Let me give my opinion with a way too long multi part response. [this could be a current events board response]

1. It is easy as many in this thread have done to justify Allen's salary in terms of TV/stadium revenue, revenue to the city etc.

2. I read your question to be a philosophic one regarding income inequality. I do think that is a legitimate concern in the context of human history. I also think sports are just a microcosm of society. I won't get into all the reasons but in a nutshell almost all "things" we use requires less and less labor AND where labor is required the global labor supply still provides relatively cheap labor. As a result the "idea" guys get richer and richer while the workers stay relatively flat.

3.I strongly applaud the efforts on Musk and DOGE because until we can restore sanity to our spending habits it will be very difficult to convince any of us higher taxes might be part of a solution. Ex. Much has been made of DOGE finding $100 billion in WFA. We are spending between 1,000 and 2,000 billion more than we collect EVERY YEAR. Based on the spending examples we've heard about you would need to be nuts to think we need more taxes.

4.I digress slightly. Here is where my solution losses support. I think the best way to collect required taxes reduce income inequality [a little at least] is wealth tax. HOWEVER not in addition too but largely in lieu of income tax.
I ran these numbers about 5 years ago but they remain pretty good
. reduce income tax to a flat 10% for everyone. No deductions except charitable contributions
. eliminate SS taxes [part of the above 10%]
. eliminate corporate income taxes
. replaced with a wealth tax of 4% of your net worth every year with a $500,000 deductible
That would result in a yearly balance budget.

BTW you could buy a 4% govt bond and your NW would never go down.

IMO this
encourages work [low income tax]
encourages companies do business in US [no income tax]
ensures everyone has some skin in the game
greatly simplifies the tax code

The argument that this is a form of double taxation is true. We already have many many examples of DT
The argument that identifying ones net worth is super hard is bunk. 95% of net worth is cash, stocks bonds and real estate.
Grandpa's famous baseball card collection is immaterial.

Long answer to your question.

Shorter answer. History hasn't been kind to empires with ever expanding gaps between the rich and the poor.
 
Some professional athletes and celebrities make an insane amount of money. That said I don't think people like Josh Allen are making you poorer.

Let me give my opinion with a way too long multi part response. [this could be a current events board response]

1. It is easy as many in this thread have done to justify Allen's salary in terms of TV/stadium revenue, revenue to the city etc.

2. I read your question to be a philosophic one regarding income inequality. I do think that is a legitimate concern in the context of human history. I also think sports are just a microcosm of society. I won't get into all the reasons but in a nutshell almost all "things" we use requires less and less labor AND where labor is required the global labor supply still provides relatively cheap labor. As a result the "idea" guys get richer and richer while the workers stay relatively flat.

3.I strongly applaud the efforts on Musk and DOGE because until we can restore sanity to our spending habits it will be very difficult to convince any of us higher taxes might be part of a solution. Ex. Much has been made of DOGE finding $100 billion in WFA. We are spending between 1,000 and 2,000 billion more than we collect EVERY YEAR. Based on the spending examples we've heard about you would need to be nuts to think we need more taxes.

4.I digress slightly. Here is where my solution losses support. I think the best way to collect required taxes reduce income inequality [a little at least] is wealth tax. HOWEVER not in addition too but largely in lieu of income tax.
I ran these numbers about 5 years ago but they remain pretty good
. reduce income tax to a flat 10% for everyone. No deductions except charitable contributions
. eliminate SS taxes [part of the above 10%]
. eliminate corporate income taxes
. replaced with a wealth tax of 4% of your net worth every year with a $500,000 deductible
That would result in a yearly balance budget.

BTW you could buy a 4% govt bond and your NW would never go down.

IMO this
encourages work [low income tax]
encourages companies do business in US [no income tax]
ensures everyone has some skin in the game
greatly simplifies the tax code

The argument that this is a form of double taxation is true. We already have many many examples of DT
The argument that identifying ones net worth is super hard is bunk. 95% of net worth is cash, stocks bonds and real estate.
Grandpa's famous baseball card collection is immaterial.

Long answer to your question.

Shorter answer. History hasn't been kind to empires with ever expanding gaps between the rich and the poor.
History hasn't been kind to empires with ever expanding gaps between the rich and the poor.

Exactly.
 
History hasn't been kind to empires with ever expanding gaps between the rich and the poor.

Exactly.

I think two things can be right at the same time. In our system, it is ok for someone to make as much money as they can, but the continued gap in economic disparity is also a growing problem.

The bigger problem than Allen's salary is the growing difference between the compensation of CEO's and the common worker. It is now 290-1 whereas in the 1950s (when a lot of people think the U.S. was the greatest) it was 20-1. Since much of this compensation is in the form of stock options; that has motivated CEO's to chase profits at all cost. What has happened at Boeing is the best example of what happens when you put profits above everything else.
 
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Let me give my opinion with a way too long multi part response. [this could be a current events board response]

1. It is easy as many in this thread have done to justify Allen's salary in terms of TV/stadium revenue, revenue to the city etc.

2. I read your question to be a philosophic one regarding income inequality. I do think that is a legitimate concern in the context of human history. I also think sports are just a microcosm of society. I won't get into all the reasons but in a nutshell almost all "things" we use requires less and less labor AND where labor is required the global labor supply still provides relatively cheap labor. As a result the "idea" guys get richer and richer while the workers stay relatively flat.

3.I strongly applaud the efforts on Musk and DOGE because until we can restore sanity to our spending habits it will be very difficult to convince any of us higher taxes might be part of a solution. Ex. Much has been made of DOGE finding $100 billion in WFA. We are spending between 1,000 and 2,000 billion more than we collect EVERY YEAR. Based on the spending examples we've heard about you would need to be nuts to think we need more taxes.

4.I digress slightly. Here is where my solution losses support. I think the best way to collect required taxes reduce income inequality [a little at least] is wealth tax. HOWEVER not in addition too but largely in lieu of income tax.
I ran these numbers about 5 years ago but they remain pretty good
. reduce income tax to a flat 10% for everyone. No deductions except charitable contributions
. eliminate SS taxes [part of the above 10%]
. eliminate corporate income taxes
. replaced with a wealth tax of 4% of your net worth every year with a $500,000 deductible
That would result in a yearly balance budget.

BTW you could buy a 4% govt bond and your NW would never go down.

IMO this
encourages work [low income tax]
encourages companies do business in US [no income tax]
ensures everyone has some skin in the game
greatly simplifies the tax code

The argument that this is a form of double taxation is true. We already have many many examples of DT
The argument that identifying ones net worth is super hard is bunk. 95% of net worth is cash, stocks bonds and real estate.
Grandpa's famous baseball card collection is immaterial.

Long answer to your question.

Shorter answer. History hasn't been kind to empires with ever expanding gaps between the rich and the poor.
You pass a wealth tax snd you will destroy the stock market.

Reportedly Musk is worth $400 billion. If he has sell stock to pay $16 billion every year that’s a huge hit. And it will be at least double that since top executives, early investors, and more will all be selling to pay taxes. As hundreds of millions of stocks are sold the price will drop like a rock.

Same with Zuckerberg and Meta. Bezos and Amazon. Alphabet. Nvidia. Apple. Every large company.

The same affect will hit cryptocurrency….people selling off to pay taxes. Real estate. Bonds.

It would be extremely disruptive and cause capital to leave the country. Why invest here and pay 4% every single year when you can invest elsewhere?

Several European countries tried this before and total revenue dropped as the economy slumped and capital ldft.

Bad idea
 
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I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
Supply and demand.

A long time ago, Dave Winfield was asked if he felt bad making so much money. He said something to the effect of "I used to. Then I realized someone had enough money to pay it."

Here is another example. The Dolan family bought the CLE Indians 25 years ago for $325m who bought it from Dick Jacobs. Jacobs bought it for $40m. So he made a cool $285m and only had to pay capital gains taxes. Dolan's $325m investment is now worth an estimated $1.35B. So his 25 year investment has netted him over $1B. (and again, tax free until he sells them and even then at cap gains taxes). In the meantime, Allen will be paying 37% in Fed tax, just under 11% on state tax. So close to 50% of his income will go to the govt.
 
You pass a wealth tax snd you will destroy the stock market.

Reportedly Musk is worth $400 billion. If he has sell stock to pay $16 billion every year that’s a huge hit. And it will be at least double that since top executives, early investors, and more will all be selling to pay taxes. As hundreds of millions of stocks are sold the price will drop like a rock.

Same with Zuckerberg and Meta. Bezos and Amazon. Alphabet. Nvidia. Apple. Every large company.

The same affect will hit cryptocurrency….people selling off to pay taxes. Real estate. Bonds.

It would be extremely disruptive and cause capital to leave the country. Why invest here and pay 4% every single year when you can invest elsewhere?

Several European countries tried this before and total revenue dropped as the economy slumped and capital ldft.

Bad idea
Yep and you'll destroy more than the stock market. The real reason why the Browns left Cleveland was because Art Model was cash-strapped. he owned the Browns but had trouble getting a loan to pay a free-agent wide receiver named Andre Rison. A minority owners, Al Lerner owned MBNA (big MD based bank). He knew the gov and mayor. The gov and mayor wanted a team to replace the Colts who left when Baltimore wouldn't change "blue laws" for Indy. Art had a bad ticker. And if he suddenly died, didn't have the money to pay inheritance taxes. So he took the cash from MD and Balt, saved it for his kid's inheritance taxes when he died. I also know of a privately held software company named ITI out of Lincoln NE. The company was worth close to $500m but the guy who started it only had a few million in the bank. The rest was assets in the company. If he died, his family couldn't afford the taxes. So he sold it to a company named Fiserv who immediately laid off anyone working in HR and operations (about half the company).

And who assigns value? If I have a Roberto Clemente signed rooking baseball card, how much is that worth when it gets passed to my heirs? It is only worth what someone buys it for.

I am not against the concept as I inherited very little compared to the Dolan kids, for example. but I have no idea how it can be operationalized without massive problems.
 
I think two things can be right at the same time. In our system, it is ok for someone to make as much money as they can, but the continued gap in economic disparity is also a growing problem.

The bigger problem than Allen's salary is the growing difference between the compensation of CEO's and the common worker. It is now 290-1 whereas in the 1950s (when a lot of people think the U.S. was the greatest) it was 20-1. Since much of this compensation is in the form of stock options; that has motivated CEO's to chase profits at all cost. What has happened at Boeing is the best example of what happens when you put profits above everything else.
What is the cause and what is the solution?

The cause is high tech and loss of manufacturing. High tech replaced a lot of workers from robotics to middle management.

But the biggest impact of high tech is those companies can be become global enterprises on day one because of the internet. YouTube as an example….day one it was available globally. Same with software. Cybersecurity. Various search engines. Advertising. Content creators.

All these companies sell the goods and services globally creating incredible wealth. Founders and early investors make huge money.

And that’s a great thing as it allows them to create far more.

Back to Musk; he started a company called Zip2. Sold it for $22 million. Used that to start X.com which became PayPal. Sold that for a couple billion. Then started Tesla, SpaceX, Boring, and more.

In that process he created tens of thousands of high paying jobs, creating wealth and tax revenue.

Don’t screw up the most dynamic economic engine in the world.
 
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I think two things can be right at the same time. In our system, it is ok for someone to make as much money as they can, but the continued gap in economic disparity is also a growing problem.

The bigger problem than Allen's salary is the growing difference between the compensation of CEO's and the common worker. It is now 290-1 whereas in the 1950s (when a lot of people think the U.S. was the greatest) it was 20-1. Since much of this compensation is in the form of stock options; that has motivated CEO's to chase profits at all cost. What has happened at Boeing is the best example of what happens when you put profits above everything else.
Why should the stock boy earn anything close to what a ceo makes. That ceo may be responsible for tens of thousands of employees jobs, aka their lives.

The stock boy isn't poor because the ceo is wealthy. All this talk is simply jealousy and our current societies belief that they are owed something simply for existing.

You want more, go earn it.

I want a ski in ski out house on Vail mountain. I don't have the 20 million to buy it. That isn't anybodies fault but mine. I don't expect anybody to buy it for me. Oh yes, how about one on Alta too if you're buying it for me.
 
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Why should the stock boy earn anything close to what a ceo makes. That ceo may be responsible for tens of thousands of employees jobs, aka their lives.

The stock boy isn't poor because the ceo is wealthy. All this talk is simply jealousy and our current societies belief that they are owed something simply for existing.

You want more, go earn it.

I want a ski in ski out house on Vail mountain. I don't have the 20 million to buy it. That isn't anybodies fault but mine. I don't expect anybody to buy it for me. Oh yes, how about one on Alta too if you're buying it for me.
He shouldn't. The stock boy doesn't have the same level of responsibility, not even close. That said, does the CEO need to make 1500 times what the stock boy does? Wouldn't 150 times be adequate? Then there would be some more money for the stock boy.Funny you mention Vail. I have a good friend who lived in Aspen about 50 years ago. It was an affordable place back then. Now you can't touch any property in that town for under 10 million, and most are far more. Why? The ultrarich have priced everyone else out. I have another friend who works there in a middle class job. He has to live 40 minutes away because that is the closest affordable housing. He rents.
 

I have a master's and did OK career-wise. Allen will make as much for 1 game as I made in an entire career. Let's not get into Juan Soto. It isn't just sports, the rich continue to get richer and the vast majority of Americans are either stuck in place or going backwards.
Admittedly there are different financial classes in America. That's always going to be the case unless you're hoping for a Communist Utopia. The hope and goal of Capitalism is a merit-based opportunity for all with the lowest class as near to the current middle class as is possible. Which financial class are you currently in and what type of economy do you think America should be using.
 
Granted, there are many ways to make millions/billions without actually playing a sport at a high level. What I am saying is the gulf between rich and poor continues to grow. That does not bode well for the country.

According to google, there are 756 billionaires and 22 million millionaires in the US out of 340 million people. A lot of these people are self made. There is little question that those with money are able to leverage that money to make even more. I do it and most likely a lot of people on this board do as well. Those at the bottom of the scale have more, but not in the same proportion.

lots of people have been poor and been rich. From what I understand, rich is better
 
He shouldn't. The stock boy doesn't have the same level of responsibility, not even close. That said, does the CEO need to make 1500 times what the stock boy does? Wouldn't 150 times be adequate? Then there would be some more money for the stock boy.Funny you mention Vail. I have a good friend who lived in Aspen about 50 years ago. It was an affordable place back then. Now you can't touch any property in that town for under 10 million, and most are far more. Why? The ultrarich have priced everyone else out. I have another friend who works there in a middle class job. He has to live 40 minutes away because that is the closest affordable housing. He rents.
In 2020 ATT had 230,000 employees world wide. Should the ceo make 1500 (or more) times more than the stock boy. YES! YES! YES!

I have a townhouse in the Vail valley. I can't afford a house on or next to the mountain. So? That's on me, nobody else. Get over it.

The top 1% pay more than 90% of the TOTAL federal tax bill. Is that "fair"? No but you aren't complaining about that.
 
Are you admitting all the welfare programs are a failure?

We don't spend 250k per student prek-12 for the students to work min wage jobs. Maybe the poor should put down the round ball and pick up a book.
The gulf is not what matters. The only thing that matters is how well the poor are doing. As an Indian guy attempting to get a US visa said to an interviewer asking why he was trying to go to America, " I want to live where the poor people are all fat."
 
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