Josh Shapiro seeks the death penalty for Graham Spanier

[KanePoster]

The people who have the greatest culpability are the two police that were hiding in one victim's house at the mother's request.

They were experienced with these sort of incidents. They knew that Sandusky was a pedophile, but didn't think they'd heard enough to arrest him.

Fine. But then go and tell every single responsible person at PSU the following:

"Look, we have a sensitive issue. It will shock you, but we are sure we are correct. You have a pedophile on campus, with full access to your facilities, and we think he's using your facility to groom young boys and their protectors.

So, we want you to watch out for the following and call us at the first sign. Here's what to look for......"

I have to say - if you told me that you'd witnessed a guy I've known for 20 years sexually assaulting a young boy, my first reaction would be "this guy is nuts". I can't believe that many here wouldn't react similarly - shock and disbelief.

But if the cops had gone pre-emptively, everyone is prepared to hear the shocking story, and they know exactly how to react.

Putting people in jail because they didn't know how to react to such an insane (pedophilia is beyond the comprehension of normal people - we just aren't prepared to believe that such a thing really exists as it is outside our experiences) report is an absolute miscarriage of justice.

Jail and punishment are for intentional harm, not because you "fumbled the ball".

 

[YYZ86]

Apparently a bunch of defense attorneys don't either.

You say that like it has any bearing on what I said.

 

[marshall23]

I've always wondered what it's like to be blessed with 20-20 hindsight. I thought the gift might be limited to the BWI Coaching Advisory Council. Alas, I see some are gifted here. Pity me, in my 48th year as a glorified gym teacher.
I won't defend Spanier or Schultz as I don't know much about them. However, Tim Curley is as fine a human as they come. You've got to be a dyed in the wool, flaming asshole to denigrate him.

 

[PSU2UNC]

OK....but I have to disagree with "Accusations were unfounded". They were considered unactionable in terms of being able to get a conviction. I do agree that the MM Shower incident, in and of itself, was also unactionable. But that still doesn't give anyone a pass for not investigating it, documenting it or reporting it properly. I am not accusing these men of breaking the law, but of incompetence in this regard.

They were unfounded at the time, e.g. in 2001, the PSU admins knew that the 1998 accusations did not result in any charges being brought. What happened later in court (incorrectly by the way) in 2012 could not have impacted their state of mind in 2001.

 

[PSU2UNC]

LMAO.

"Hello, Wendell, this is Gary Schultz. Gotta situation here. JerBear was seen showering with a kid, but they wasn't doing nothin', ya know, just horsin' around. Need ta know whether I got to report that to anyone."

If that was the nature of his call than he's even dumber than I think he is.

Why do you think that is dumb exactly?

 

[francofan]

I answered "NO" to each question. Still doesn't dismiss Art's point that one of those three should have reported McQueary's concern to CYS (or whatever their initials are). It's all hindsight, but by doing just that, PSU wouldn't be in any trouble at all, Paterno's legacy and statue are intact, etc. Gary Schultz even seems to indicate that one step step should have happened and I believe testified that he thought Curley had reported to CYS.

All that said, I understand why they didn't. They didn't think anything happened in the shower. They weren't told of anything other than the shower kinda creeped out the redhead. Even Dr. Dranov testified to that effect.

But still, knowing of the '98 incident and that it had been reported, I'd like to think I'd have erred on the side of CMA and reported him again -- knowing that it was a similar report to the prior report -- and let the professionals decide how to proceed.

I don't buy that Curley or Schultz should have filed a report to CYS. Yes, it would not have hurt, but it was not required. If anybody should have filed a report, it was Dranov and/or Raykovitch; but since neither had been informed that CSA had been observed, it wasn't required of them either. If the OAG was going to file failure to report charges against anybody it should have been Dranov and/or Raykovitch. They could have, but they didn't.

Curley may have reported it to CYS, but I don't believe CYS does a very good job of tracking unfounded reports and I don't think they should. Two areas that I believe that Tim has regrets about is that he now wishes that he called CYS or if he did call CYS, he did a better job of documenting it and I believe that Tim also regrets not calling Allan Myers when Sandusky identified Allan as the boy in the shower. That being said, Tim didn't do anything wrong. He was railroaded. He is a good man and there is no way he should have been put through the wringer and had his life destroyed by the State for no good reason.

 

[indynittany]

I don't buy that Curley or Schultz should have filed a report to CYS. Yes, it would not have hurt, but it was not required. If anybody should have filed a report, it was Dranov and/or Raykovitch; but since neither had been informed that CSA had been observed, it wasn't required of them either. If the OAG was going to file failure to report charges against anybody it should have been Dranov and/or Raykovitch. They could have, but they didn't.

Curley may have reported it to CYS, but I don't believe CYS does a very good job of tracking unfounded reports and I don't think they should. Two areas that I believe that Tim has regrets about is that he now wishes that he called CYS or if he did call CYS, he did a better job of documenting it and I believe that Tim also regrets not calling Allan Myers when Sandusky identified Allan as the boy in the shower. That being said, Tim didn't do anything wrong. He was railroaded. He is a good man and there is no way he should have been put through the wringer and had his life destroyed by the State for no good reason.

I still disagree with the idea that Tim should have contacted AM. If it was serious enough for that, then he should have let CPS do it. IMO, the only reason for any PSU official to have contacted AM, would have been to secure his silence. In other words, cover the whole thing up. That Tim didn't see fit to contact AM, IMO, is exculpatory.

 

[MJG-90]

I don't buy that Curley or Schultz should have filed a report to CYS. Yes, it would not have hurt, but it was not required. If anybody should have filed a report, it was Dranov and/or Raykovitch; but since neither had been informed that CSA had been observed, it wasn't required of them either. If the OAG was going to file failure to report charges against anybody it should have been Dranov and/or Raykovitch. They could have, but they didn't.

Curley may have reported it to CYS, but I don't believe CYS does a very good job of tracking unfounded reports and I don't think they should. Two areas that I believe that Tim has regrets about is that he now wishes that he called CYS or if he did call CYS, he did a better job of documenting it and I believe that Tim also regrets not calling Allan Myers when Sandusky identified Allan as the boy in the shower. That being said, Tim didn't do anything wrong. He was railroaded. He is a good man and there is no way he should have been put through the wringer and had his life destroyed by the State for no good reason.

I didn’t say they should have. Art did. I was just saying if they had reported the incident, we aren’t having this discussion for the last ten years.

 

[Art]

I don't buy that Curley or Schultz should have filed a report to CYS. Yes, it would not have hurt, but it was not required. If anybody should have filed a report, it was Dranov and/or Raykovitch; but since neither had been informed that CSA had been observed, it wasn't required of them either. If the OAG was going to file failure to report charges against anybody it should have been Dranov and/or Raykovitch. They could have, but they didn't.

Curley may have reported it to CYS, but I don't believe CYS does a very good job of tracking unfounded reports and I don't think they should. Two areas that I believe that Tim has regrets about is that he now wishes that he called CYS or if he did call CYS, he did a better job of documenting it and I believe that Tim also regrets not calling Allan Myers when Sandusky identified Allan as the boy in the shower. That being said, Tim didn't do anything wrong. He was railroaded. He is a good man and there is no way he should have been put through the wringer and had his life destroyed by the State for no good reason.

You will continue to rationalize why Spanier didn't make a mistake (yes. Spanier, because when it hit his desk it became his call) until hell freezes over and it will not change the fact that his decision fvcked PSU forever. Nothing will change that.

 

[indynittany]

You will continue to rationalize why Spanier didn't make a mistake (yes. Spanier, because when it hit his desk it became his call) until hell freezes over and it will not change the fact that his decision fvcked PSU forever. Nothing will change that.

The BOT could change it in a heartbeat and it should!

 

[francofan]

I still disagree with the idea that Tim should have contacted AM. If it was serious enough for that, then he should have let CPS do it. IMO, the only reason for any PSU official to have contacted AM, would have been to secure his silence. In other words, cover the whole thing up. That Tim didn't see fit to contact AM, IMO, is exculpatory.

I wasn't saying that Tim should have called AM, rather that Tim regrets not calling AM. Tim investigated Mike's report and as part of that investigation interviewed Jerry. I believe it is apparent that at the time in 2001 that Mike did not say he witnessed CSA, but was concerned when he saw Jerry showering with MM. It seems that Tim believed Jerry when he said they were horsing around and nothing untoward happened. I don't see a huge problem if as part of his investigation that he called AM to confirm Jerry's story. If everything checked out, then go with plan A. If anything made Tim suspicious, he could go to authorities. In hindsight, this approach would have alleviated the mess that happened.

 

[Art]

The BOT could change it in a heartbeat and it should!

BoT action won't change a damned thing. It issues some sort of exculpatory statement and public reaction will be "what did you expect them to say?" The Freeh Report can be shredded into confetti, which has largely happened, and no one will pay attention.

 

[francofan]

You will continue to rationalize why Spanier didn't make a mistake (yes. Spanier, because when it hit his desk it became his call) until hell freezes over and it will not change the fact that his decision fvcked PSU forever. Nothing will change that.

The thing that screwed Penn State was Tom Corbett's vendetta against Graham Spanier. Corbett should not have been leading the charge for the BOT which was a blatant conflict of interest. Yes, I remember the boy in the shower and his name is Allan Myers and he was not abused. Retired NCIS Special Agent John Snedden is spot on in his assessment based on his federal investigation that there was no sex scandal at Penn State, rather just a political hit job.

Spanier is a good man and did nothing wrong. He was railroaded. He is a victim of a miscarriage of justice. His life has been turned upside down by a vengeful ex-governor and an overzealous OAG. It seems that you don't have any empathy for him. I am sorry you feel that way.

 

[Art]

The thing that screwed Penn State was Tom Corbett's vendetta against Graham Spanier. Corbett should not have been leading the charge for the BOT which was a blatant conflict of interest. Yes, I remember the boy in the shower and his name is Allan Myers and he was not abused. Retired NCIS Special Agent John Snedden is spot on in his assessment based on his federal investigation that there was no sex scandal at Penn State, rather just a political hit job.

Spanier is a good man and did nothing wrong. He was railroaded. He is a victim of a miscarriage of justice. His life has been turned upside down by a vengeful ex-governor and an overzealous OAG. It seems that you don't have any empathy for him. I am sorry you feel that way.

More rationalization. Spanier made a bad decision. His first reaction when the Sandusky mess was referred to him should have been, "Get this thing out of hear. Send it to where it belongs."

As for Corbett, Spanier was more than a little injudicious when he criticized him publicly over budget matters. Not a good look taking on the governor when you expect to go back asking for money again. College presidents are supposed to be politically astute. Spanier got an F- on this test.

 

[Media Fan]

Refer the case to the police and bar the Baboon from campus.

If you went to Google, you would realize that as of a decade ago 87% of colleges had university police that were sworn officers of the law.
I don’t know what PSU’s status was/is.

 

[Art]

If you went to Google, you would realize that as of a decade ago 87% of colleges had university police that were sworn officers of the law.
I don’t know what PSU’s status was/is.

Couldn't say for certain, but I'd bet that PSU's police were sworn law officers, even 20 or more years ago.

Ideally, you'd like to have the investigators be independent of PSU.

 

[BringBackStoneys]

More rationalization. Spanier made a bad decision. His first reaction when the Sandusky mess was referred to him should have been, "Get this thing out of hear. Send it to where it belongs."

As for Corbett, Spanier was more than a little injudicious when he criticized him publicly over budget matters. Not a good look taking on the governor when you expect to go back asking for money again. College presidents are supposed to be politically astute. Spanier got an F- on this test.

Spanier wrote in his notes that Sandusky needed professional help and that PSU would be “vulnerable” for not reporting him if warnings were not heeded. I believe Spanier was railroaded in the sense that they misapplied the mandatory reporter statute, but his paper trail is a very real problem.

 

[Art]

Spanier wrote in his notes that Sandusky needed professional help and that PSU would be “vulnerable” for not reporting him if warnings were not heeded. I believe Spanier was railroaded in the sense that they misapplied the mandatory reporter statute, but his paper trail is a very real problem.

Honestly, I don't want to get into a discussion of the legal nuances here. I also believe that Curley, Schultz, and Spanier did nothing for which they deserved the fates that befell them.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of protecting the institution. That objective is not well-served by keeping a matter like this in-house and attending to it with people who are outside their areas of expertise and competence.

 

[PSUSignore]

I don't believe the Lauro and Schreffler issued a warning to Jerry to not shower with kids, but only not to shower with ZK. Jerry's recollection of what happened is that as he was being told that he was in the clear, he was concerned about ZK's feelings as ZK might be unable to enjoy football games or other activities so he asked about what sort of parameters his relationship with ZK should their be going forward. Lauro and Schreffler said that it would be ok to go to football games with him but not ok to work out or shower with him. After this meeting, in the years 1998 - 2011, Jerry and ZK maintained a friendly relationship where Jerry took ZK to many football games but never showered or worked out with him.

Regardless if the warning was about one child or in general, he shouldn't even need to be told in the first place. Your post comes across like you are patting Jerry on the back because he didn't shower with this one child after being told not to. That's a ridiculous premise. These are things that anyone in a position of working with kids should find obvious without having to be told. One simply doesn't work with children 1x1, you sure as hell don't do it in the shower. He obviously continued to do so with other kids despite the warning. Even if it was about just the one child as you state, that should have been a sufficient wake up call that it's not appropriate with any child, ever. Jerry's best case scenario is that he's a complete dimwit, lacking the intelligence and proper judgment to ever be trusted around kids. At worst he's a repeat child sex offender and if so, he's exactly where he belongs.

 

[lionville]

Honestly, I don't want to get into a discussion of the legal nuances here. I also believe that Curley, Schultz, and Spanier did nothing for which they deserved the fates that befell them.

I'm looking at it from the perspective of protecting the institution. That objective is not well-served by keeping a matter like this in-house and attending to it with people who are outside their areas of expertise and competence.

Was the BOT protecting the institution with their actions?

 

[francofan]

Regardless if the warning was about one child or in general, he shouldn't even need to be told in the first place. Your post comes across like you are patting Jerry on the back because he didn't shower with this one child after being told not to. That's a ridiculous premise. These are things that anyone in a position of working with kids should find obvious without having to be told. One simply doesn't work with children 1x1, you sure as hell don't do it in the shower. He obviously continued to do so with other kids despite the warning. Even if it was about just the one child as you state, that should have been a sufficient wake up call that it's not appropriate with any child, ever. Jerry's best case scenario is that he's a complete dimwit, lacking the intelligence and proper judgment to ever be trusted around kids. At worst he's a repeat child sex offender and if so, he's exactly where he belongs.

I am not patting Jerry on the back for not showering with zk ever again. I am trying to provide context for the advise or warning he got from investigaters as they were clearing him of possible child abuse allegations. I believe that he followed Lauro and Schreffler's advise/warning not to work out or showering with zk but being ok to go to football games with him on occasion. Jerry and zk maintained a 13 year friendly relationship and zk seemed to appreciate Jerry in his life.

I don't believe there is any credible evidence that Jerry ever harmed any child. I believe he had boundary issues, think he used poor judgment in some of his interactions with at-risk kids and at times appears to be a dimwit. At the same time, I am convinced that he did not have any sexual intent in any of these interactions.

 

[Art]

Was the BOT protecting the institution with their actions?

By the time the BoT got involved, it was already too late. That said, they made it worse

 

[AvgUser]

The BOT could change it in a heartbeat and it should!

Yes. That is the real reason. The BOT both panicked and has something to hide.

Compare PSU to MSU, OSU, UM. Each of those situation makes PSU look like jaywalking yet nobody talks about it and nobody notices. Why is that (rhetorical)? Our BOT F’ed this up. Not CSSAnd/or P.

 

[blk902]

Regardless if the warning was about one child or in general, he shouldn't even need to be told in the first place. Your post comes across like you are patting Jerry on the back because he didn't shower with this one child after being told not to. That's a ridiculous premise. These are things that anyone in a position of working with kids should find obvious without having to be told. One simply doesn't work with children 1x1, you sure as hell don't do it in the shower. He obviously continued to do so with other kids despite the warning. Even if it was about just the one child as you state, that should have been a sufficient wake up call that it's not appropriate with any child, ever. Jerry's best case scenario is that he's a complete dimwit, lacking the intelligence and proper judgment to ever be trusted around kids. At worst he's a repeat child sex offender and if so, he's exactly where he belongs.

Yes he had boundary issues. Jerry thought of some of these kids as if they were his biological sons. He bought some of them church clothes, old computers etc. He and his wife couldn’t have kids. He had some of these kids to his house for dinner with his family (his kids are all adopted). He thought of things differently than most people and it cost him jail time. He didn’t molest those young teenagers.

 

[PSU2UNC]

You will continue to rationalize why Spanier didn't make a mistake (yes. Spanier, because when it hit his desk it became his call) until hell freezes over and it will not change the fact that his decision fvcked PSU forever. Nothing will change that.

Nothing changes what happened, but your interpretation of what happened is incorrect.

 

[PSU2UNC]

More rationalization. Spanier made a bad decision. His first reaction when the Sandusky mess was referred to him should have been, "Get this thing out of hear. Send it to where it belongs."

As for Corbett, Spanier was more than a little injudicious when he criticized him publicly over budget matters. Not a good look taking on the governor when you expect to go back asking for money again. College presidents are supposed to be politically astute. Spanier got an F- on this test.

Governors are supposed to be leaders of the state and advocates for its flagship university, not petty and corrupt.

 

[MtNittany]

Art's smart enough to not pin his livelihood on ridiculous characters like those exposed in Clinton County, yet he expected the opposite from PSU leadership.

As for Wendell, he was on retainer for PSU at the time if I'm not mistaken.

 

[marshall23]

Art's smart enough to not pin his livelihood on ridiculous characters like those exposed in Clinton County, yet he expected the opposite from PSU leadership.

As for Wendell, he was on retainer for PSU at the time if I'm not mistaken.

He was.....I always felt that Harmon and Courtney were treated with kid gloves. Especially Harmon.

 

[Art]

Nothing changes what happened, but your interpretation of what happened is incorrect.

So my "interpretation of what happened is incorrect?" Joe's statue is till there, no one went to or is going to jail, PSU's coffers have hundreds of millions of dollars more, and none of those nasty stories ever appeared. I need me some of that pixie dust.

 

[francofan]

So my "interpretation of what happened is incorrect?" Joe's statue is till there, no one went to or is going to jail, PSU's coffers have hundreds of millions of dollars more, and none of those nasty stories ever appeared. I need me some of that pixie dust.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me in a big picture view that you might think that the OAG, Freeh, and the media got something right in their view of things. Please humor me and say what you believe, if anything, the OAG, Freeh and/or the media got right in this story.

 

[MtNittany]

So my "interpretation of what happened is incorrect?" Joe's statue is till there, no one went to or is going to jail, PSU's coffers have hundreds of millions of dollars more, and none of those nasty stories ever appeared. I need me some of that pixie dust.

...and who's fault is that? You want MY list - and it doesn't include spanky?

espn
cnn
abc
nbc
cbs
fnn

You want me to go on?

 

[Art]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it seems to me in a big picture view that you might think that the OAG, Freeh, and the media got something right in their view of things. Please humor me and say what you believe, if anything, the OAG, Freeh and/or the media got right in this story.

You're wrong at least as far as PSU's involvement goes.

 

[francofan]

...and who's fault is that? You want MY list - and it doesn't include spanky?

espn
cnn
abc
nbc
cbs
fnn

You want me to go on?

There is alot of blame to go around in this faux scandal. The ones I find most responsible are:

I put Spanky number one.

I agree the media is very responsible.

I blame John Surma and the powers to be in the old guard BOT.

I blame the OAG including Fina, McGettigan, Eshbach and their staff.

I blame Louis Freeh.

I blame Mark Emmert and the NCAA.

I blame the claimants and their attorneys and psychologists.

I blame Scott Paterno.

 

[francofan]

You're wrong at least as far as PSU's involvement goes.

Nice dodge of the question. You don't need to answer, but if you do respond please say what YOU believe the OAG, Freeh and/or the media got right in this story.

 

[MtNittany]

There is alot of blame to go around in this faux scandal. The ones I find most responsible are:

I put Spanky number one.

I agree the media is very responsible.

I blame John Surma and the powers to be in the old guard BOT.

I blame the OAG including Fina, McGettigan, Eshbach and their staff.

I blame Louis Freeh.

I blame Mark Emmert and the NCAA.

I blame the claimants and their attorneys and psychologists.

I blame Scott Paterno.

Holding Spanier responsible (as repugnent as he is) for any of this is historically ridiculous. If this (the fake rape accusations that somehow turned into actual convictions) happened in Kansas, none of us would even know about it.

Media. Period.

 

[slykens]

I agree that PA is corrupt especially the judicial system. I believe a big problem with the judiciary in PA is that judges are selected and retained and often make decisions based on public opinion and not the law or the facts of the case.

I don't believe the corruption in this whole faux scandal is soley the responsibility of one political party. I have seen corruption on both sides of the aisle from Corbett to Shapiro.

Im not convinced direct election of judges is the problem, per se, but because of how our society works it certainly contributes to the problem.

I always get creeped out when a judge talks about being “tough on crime” or other similar bullshit as it is not their job - as you astutely point out, theirs is to rule based on the facts and law before them - but society eats that stuff up.

We also don’t take the judiciary seriously in Pennsylvania. The minor judiciary is a complete joke as anyone with a pulse can go to judge camp for a week and be a district magistrate. These are the people that you appear in front of first for traffic tickets and run preliminary hearings but they have no real idea what the law says or how to apply it.

 

[pandaczar12]

I didn’t say they should have. Art did. I was just saying if they had reported the incident, we aren’t having this discussion for the last ten years.

It's simply an unprovable assumption that calling the "authorities" would have changed the outcome. This assumes that the OAG was playing by the rules, which if you've been paying attention, they clearly are not. (If they played by the rules, we wouldn't be having this discussion for the last 10 years) Are we even 100% sure that they didn't call circa 2001? I think it's clear that a report of horseplay would have been "unfounded", and wouldn't that eventually be expunged from the records putting us in the exact same place?

Regardless, I don't understand why everyone (not you specifically) focuses on what PSU "should have done" despite PSU not having responsibility for the teen or JS. But ignore what the actual ear witness, people he told immediately after the incident, and a mandated reporter at TSM, should have done.

 

[MJG-90]

It's simply an unprovable assumption that calling the "authorities" would have changed the outcome. This assumes that the OAG was playing by the rules, which if you've been paying attention, they clearly are not. (If they played by the rules, we wouldn't be having this discussion for the last 10 years) Are we even 100% sure that they didn't call circa 2001?

It might be unprovable, but given that PSU was not in hot water over '98 (other than having to pay out money to the "victim"), which was reported, I think it's a pretty safe assumption. McQueary was the "big witness" that turned this into a case. If his report gets to CYS, PSU is then out of the crosshairs -- and probably out of the crosshairs for every payment they made as well.

I'm pretty sure Curley testified that he did not report McQueary's statement to CYS. Schultz testified that he thought Tim did only to find out later Tim did not. So pretty certain we know that it was not reported to CYS, just the second mile.

 

[PSU2UNC]

So my "interpretation of what happened is incorrect?" Joe's statue is till there, no one went to or is going to jail, PSU's coffers have hundreds of millions of dollars more, and none of those nasty stories ever appeared. I need me some of that pixie dust.

Your interpretation of the events that lead to the fallout you describe is incorrect. The fallout you describe did happen, but it should not have. It only did because of media malpractice, OAG corruption and BOT incompetence.

 

[BBrown]

Your interpretation of the events that lead to the fallout you describe is incorrect. The fallout you describe did happen, but it should not have. It only did because of media malpractice, OAG corruption and BOT incompetence.

I will disagree with you on one thing. I do not think "BOT incompetence" was the reason. IMO it was jealousy and petty personal vandettas from the BOTS.