Just how good is Penn State, really?

[olelion]

I struggle with this. At times I just don't see a top 10 team let alone a NCS contender. Yet, at times they just hammer other teams. I think it's my frustration watching the running game get absolutely destroyed and bringing back memories of laughable offensive lines. Yet they are 4 points from being undefeated in a very tough division. It's not that I'm totally old school, but too much finesse on offense just doesn't do it for me. I haven't answered the question but I guess my best analogy are the Oregon teams under Kelly (both as HC and OC). They were very, very good but I felt if you hit them in the mouth, you beat them. This is strictly my opinion, but that's what I'm reminded of.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

I struggle with the question too but, when you listen to CJF's press conferences, he is totally aware of the shortcomings. Depth on the lines takes time to build. If we had it, we would be a MNC contender.

 

[PSU0622]

This is a top 10 team. The lack of solid def and off line play separates them from top 5. Until the def line becomes dominate then top 10 will be the ceiling. Need Parsons and Oweh bad.

 

[AvgPennStateFan]

We are a team in transition... Explains the Divide between optimism and frustration that has played out on this board and elsewhere. Our roster is comprised of lower ceiling upperclassmen and high ceiling freshmen and sophomores. I'm not sure what next year will bring but if coach Franklin continues on the same recruiting trajectory and ensures he has good coaches to scheme and develop players, the program will be in good hands for years to come.

 

[mrtailgate]

I'm not sure how good anyone is to be honest. Other than Bama, I think anyone and everyone is beatable. Look at Clemson, beat by the Cuse. Georgia is probably good but they got hammered. Look at Iowa and Ohio State and how that game turned out.

I think we are a legit team, in the top 20. Are we better than Notre Dame? Better than USC? Who knows? And I think that is the way it is most years. I'm not sure I go into any game since 94 knowing that PSU isn't capable of being beaten.

 

[bkmtnittany1]

I'm not sure how good anyone is to be honest. Other than Bama, I think anyone and everyone is beatable. Look at Clemson, beat by the Cuse. Georgia is probably good but they got hammered. Look at Iowa and Ohio State and how that game turned out.

I think we are a legit team, in the top 20. Are we better than Notre Dame? Better than USC? Who knows? And I think that is the way it is most years. I'm not sure I go into any game since 94 knowing that PSU isn't capable of being beaten.

And since the Minny game last year I don't go into any game thinking PSU can't win. CJF gets the credit for that.

 

[VaNtyLion]

I struggle with this. At times I just don't see a top 10 team let alone a NCS contender. Yet, at times they just hammer other teams. I think it's my frustration watching the running game get absolutely destroyed and bringing back memories of laughable offensive lines. Yet they are 4 points from being undefeated in a very tough division. It's not that I'm totally old school, but too much finesse on offense just doesn't do it for me. I haven't answered the question but I guess my best analogy are the Oregon teams under Kelly (both as HC and OC). They were very, very good but I felt if you hit them in the mouth, you beat them. This is strictly my opinion, but that's what I'm reminded of.

There is not a complete team to be found anywhere in the country this year. If one team is struggling in the running game, the other is struggling in the pass (see UGA and ND losses last weekend, or what happened to Clemson when their QB went down earlier in the season). When viewed in this light, PSU is no different. At our best, we're a top 5 team...but even when struggling we're not dropping out of the top 15 because of the quality of the QB and depth of skill positions.

Two things PSU does well that are the marks of the traditional better teams - 1) we get quality QB play and 2) we have been pretty solid away from home this year even in those two losses to ranked teams by 4 pts.

 

[sluggo72]

I struggle with this. At times I just don't see a top 10 team let alone a NCS contender. Yet, at times they just hammer other teams. I think it's my frustration watching the running game get absolutely destroyed and bringing back memories of laughable offensive lines. Yet they are 4 points from being undefeated in a very tough division. It's not that I'm totally old school, but too much finesse on offense just doesn't do it for me. I haven't answered the question but I guess my best analogy are the Oregon teams under Kelly (both as HC and OC). They were very, very good but I felt if you hit them in the mouth, you beat them. This is strictly my opinion, but that's what I'm reminded of.

No one punched us in the mouth to beat us. We controlled every game, and that is what is so frustrating. A good 4 minute drill would go a long way, and if so we would be in the CFP.

 

[BBrown]

I struggle with this. At times I just don't see a top 10 team let alone a NCS contender. Yet, at times they just hammer other teams. I think it's my frustration watching the running game get absolutely destroyed and bringing back memories of laughable offensive lines. Yet they are 4 points from being undefeated in a very tough division. It's not that I'm totally old school, but too much finesse on offense just doesn't do it for me. I haven't answered the question but I guess my best analogy are the Oregon teams under Kelly (both as HC and OC). They were very, very good but I felt if you hit them in the mouth, you beat them. This is strictly my opinion, but that's what I'm reminded of.

INMO our current ranking is probably about right, anything between 6-10 seems fair to me.

 

[Lyons212]

No one punched us in the mouth to beat us. We controlled every game, and that is what is so frustrating. A good 4 minute drill would go a long way, and if so we would be in the CFP.

Look at Michigan State, we had the game winning drive and on the 4th down play that puts us in field goal range, we drop the pass, the pass was thrown slightly behind and thrown to the wrong receiver (Barkley was wide open). MSU gets ball back, we stop them on 3rd down, would have forced a punt except for a late hit to the QB that put them in field goal range.

 

[AWS1022]

If we watched every other team with the same fine tooth comb that we watch PSU, we would find a lot of weaknesses in every team. No team is perfect, but winning nine out of eleven means you're pretty darn good.

 

[Nitt1300]

There is Bama, then there are the next ten or so teams then another ten, then the rest

I think right now PSU is in the first group of ten and rising

 

[bdgan]

I struggle with this. At times I just don't see a top 10 team let alone a NCS contender. Yet, at times they just hammer other teams. I think it's my frustration watching the running game get absolutely destroyed and bringing back memories of laughable offensive lines. Yet they are 4 points from being undefeated in a very tough division. It's not that I'm totally old school, but too much finesse on offense just doesn't do it for me. I haven't answered the question but I guess my best analogy are the Oregon teams under Kelly (both as HC and OC). They were very, very good but I felt if you hit them in the mouth, you beat them. This is strictly my opinion, but that's what I'm reminded of.

Bates Jr/So
Gonzalez Jr/So
Fries So/Fr
Wright Sr/Jr
McGovern So/So
Mahon Sr/Sr
Menet So/Fr

Young but 4 guys have at least 3 years in the program (I didn't include Nelson because of injury). The disappointment isn't that they aren't elite. The disappointment is that we didn't seem to improve from last year. It makes me wonder if it's the scheme and if opposing defenses have figured it out.

 

[mrtailgate]

Have you watched Alabama?

With their Linebacker situation, and a less than well-oiled offense, they are most definitely "beatable".
They may be the best team in the country - IMO, they are - but there are probably at least 6-8 teams that would have at least a shot in three if they played on a neutral field (including Penn State).

You could at least argue that Mississippi State out-played them. The same Mississippi State that, the week before playing Alabama, struggled mightily against UMass - and the week after, struggled mightily against Arkansas.

I don't disagree. I should have said they are the only team that is likely favored to win every week. Heck, Auburn could very easily win this weekend. I think the perception is that Bama operates at a higher level than everyone else. When they lose, it's a big deal. Everyone else, not so much.

 

[royboy]

INMO our current ranking is probably about right, anything between 6-10 seems fair to me.

Sounds about right.

Have to remember, through most of the year PSU has been very good in all 3 phases of the game -- offense, defense, and special teams. Two losses were very close against good teams on the road in a particularly hard stretch of the schedule. In those losses, the defense was not effective late in the game, and the offense missed some chances to seal the game.

 

[YYZ86]

I think everyone forgets that the entire Big had a year to figure out how to stop or slow down PSU's offense. They have been able to take away the run game this year. PSU has had a lot of big plays, but I don't think as many as last year (don't know the actual stat on that). I don't think it has been solely because of the OL. To only lose two away games by a total of 4 points is pretty good. Sagarin has us at 5 which I think is about right with the two losses. Moving forward, the question that needs to be answered is the lack of run game. Is it the OL or has a defensive scheme been found to take it away.

 

[Howie'81]

I'm not sure how good anyone is to be honest. Other than Bama, I think anyone and everyone is beatable. Look at Clemson, beat by the Cuse. Georgia is probably good but they got hammered. Look at Iowa and Ohio State and how that game turned out.

I think we are a legit team, in the top 20. Are we better than Notre Dame? Better than USC? Who knows? And I think that is the way it is most years. I'm not sure I go into any game since 94 knowing that PSU isn't capable of being beaten.

Bama's very beatable too. Barely survived MissSU.

 

[okinburg1]

No one punched us in the mouth to beat us. We controlled every game, and that is what is so frustrating. A good 4 minute drill would go a long way, and if so we would be in the CFP.

For sure no one punched us in the mouth to beat us.

In fact, I maintain that if we had gotten one block against OSU, and pushed them back 40+ yards rather than have a punt blocked, we beat them because they would have run out of time.

Also, we were one play from beating MSU - take your pick - the slight overthrow on 4th and 3 and the roughing the passer are 2 that jump out at me.

Having watched a good number of teams this year, I think there is not a dominant team. Alabama sans injuries might have been, but injuries happen and they certainly looked beatable against Miss St.

This is why I lament the OSU/MSU games strongly, as I do think this team, despite it's shortcomings, could beat anybody this year, and chances like that don't come along every year. Regardless, 10 win regular seasons (Turtles 21 point dogs) and NY6 bowls (Cotton vs ND - write it down) are nothing to sneeze at. Finally, I think JF has the program on a trajectory where, more years than not, they will be competing for the B1G title, with NC aspirations, and that is pretty good too.

 

[nits74]

No one punched us in the mouth to beat us. We controlled every game, and that is what is so frustrating. A good 4 minute drill would go a long way, and if so we would be in the CFP.

Well, Ohio State sort of did in the second half.

 

[RU31trap]

A team with back to back 10-2 seasons is dam good especially when one considers the NCAA scholarship sanctions from 7 years ago. In my opinion the only thing that was missing this year was an elite defensive line, the type of line that would put constant pressure on the opposing QB's and ultimately demanding double teams. Next year both your O-Line and D-Line will be much improved and if Sanders turns out to be good you may looking at another 10-2 season. You guys are very lucky to have this trio leading this team: Franklin, Moorhead and Pry.

 

[Nittany Ziggy]

This is what Joe meant when he talked about reducing expectations after the scholarship limit was reduced to 85.

 

[ThePennsyOracle]

I feel dirty saying this.....I could not agree with Barry more here.

Wright and Mahon have also been playing dinged up. Brown was a huge loss. Once Bucholtz & Bates went down, one had to know we were in major trouble. PSU just doesn't have the horses to adequately replace injuries like that.

 

[Ranger Dan]

I've given this some 40,000 foot thought this fall. While not the first time this has likely been suggested, there are a few factors that go into "just how good" any team actually is. Every team has a floor and a ceiling that they can perform at, with all else being equal. Some teams get better through the year, and improve at different rates. You also have the different match up issues from game to game.

The reality is that the best team is one that can still win when they perform at their lowest level for that week, and regardless of of the match up. More often than not, Alabama has fit into this category. Virtually everyone else is subject to match ups and/or off weeks.

The next level below Alabama are the ones who can perform at a high enough level to beat anyone else, regardless of match up, but are still susceptible to teams that have a match up (injury) or performance advantage. I would put Clemson and tOSU in this group.

Then comes the teams that can potentially win against high level competition as long as the match up is right. They can overwhelm teams that don't match up well (scheme or talent wise) but can be challenged by inferior teams with good match ups or that play to their ceiling. Penn State, Oklahoma, and USC fall into this group, IMHO.

 

[bdgan]

Sounds about right.

Have to remember, through most of the year PSU has been very good in all 3 phases of the game -- offense, defense, and special teams. Two losses were very close against good teams on the road in a particularly hard stretch of the schedule. In those losses, the defense was not effective late in the game, and the offense missed some chances to seal the game.

We might be undefeated if not for the injuries to Buchholz and Bates.

I blame the staff for the loss to OSU. We had a big lead and they went conservative. Then all it took was a blacked punt.

MSU was a tough situation. The loss at OSU took it's toll on both teams. Look what happened to OSU at Iowa. It took an even tougher toll on PSU because they lost two starters. Add the bad weather and 4 hour delay in a visitor locker room. MSU is NOT a great team. They're just good enough to beat a vulnerable opponent under the right conditions.

 

[Osprey Lion]

I struggle with this. At times I just don't see a top 10 team let alone a NCS contender. Yet, at times they just hammer other teams. I think it's my frustration watching the running game get absolutely destroyed and bringing back memories of laughable offensive lines. Yet they are 4 points from being undefeated in a very tough division. It's not that I'm totally old school, but too much finesse on offense just doesn't do it for me. I haven't answered the question but I guess my best analogy are the Oregon teams under Kelly (both as HC and OC). They were very, very good but I felt if you hit them in the mouth, you beat them. This is strictly my opinion, but that's what I'm reminded of.

Except for a very few teams (Alabama), that approach hasn't worked well and is a thing of
the past. Visit the Florida, Iowa, Michigan, etc boards and see how much their fans like
your preferred brand of football. Defenses are more sophisticated these days and unless
you have a superior offensive line, "three yards and a cloud of dust" won't work. Embrace
the present. Not many years ago when PSU went 10 and 2, fans were celebrating. Now
some like you are complaining.

 

[Osprey Lion]

Well, Ohio State sort of did in the second half.

A lot of good passes and no ints. by JT Barrett is not the smack in the mouth the OP is talking about.

 

[olelion]

Except for a very few teams (Alabama), that approach hasn't worked well and is a thing of
the past. Visit the Florida, Iowa, Michigan, etc boards and see how much their fans like
your preferred brand of football. Defenses are more sophisticated these days and unless
you have a superior offensive line, "three yards and a cloud of dust" won't work. Embrace
the present. Not many years ago when PSU went 10 and 2, fans were celebrating. Now
some like you are complaining.

You are extremely full of shit

 

[sluggo72]

Here are the Offensive Line recruiting classes that would be Seniors (4th and 5th year guys) on this year's team:

1) Brandon Mahon
2) Chaz Wright (Prep School kid, who committed to Penn State when Penn State didn't have a coach. May have had a competing offer from UConn, or maybe not)
3) Andrew Nelson (injured)
4) Tanner Hartman (who was "flipped" from Liberty University - seriously - and came to Penn State for a couple of hours. Anyone even remember him?)
5) and 6) Brendan Brosnan and Chance Sorrell (two Vanderbilt recruits who came with CJF - because Penn State had about four offensive lineman on the entire roster - then got hurt, and never played)

That is it. In its entirety.


Here are the offensive linemen recruits from CJF's first two year's. Guys who are now Freshmen and Sophomores:

1) Ryan Bates (PSU over OSU)
2) Sterling Jenkins (PSU over Michigan)
3) Steven Gonzalez (PSU over OSU)
4) Will Fries (PSU over Michigan)
5) Connor McGovern (PSU over Michigan State and Stanford)
6) Alex Gellerstedt (PSU over Northwestern and Pitt)
7) Michael Menet (PSU over OSU)

who recruited Noah Beh?

 

[zwick19050]

I struggle with this. At times I just don't see a top 10 team let alone a NCS contender. Yet, at times they just hammer other teams. I think it's my frustration watching the running game get absolutely destroyed and bringing back memories of laughable offensive lines. Yet they are 4 points from being undefeated in a very tough division. It's not that I'm totally old school, but too much finesse on offense just doesn't do it for me. I haven't answered the question but I guess my best analogy are the Oregon teams under Kelly (both as HC and OC). They were very, very good but I felt if you hit them in the mouth, you beat them. This is strictly my opinion, but that's what I'm reminded of.

How smart are PSU fans really?

They complain when PSU wins 56-0 and they complain when PSU wins 56-42. They complain when the LB recruits are too small and then they complain when they are too big.

Can you name a coach better than JF that actually wants this job?

 

[zwick19050]

Here are the Offensive Line recruiting classes that would be Seniors (4th and 5th year guys) on this year's team:

1) Brandon Mahon
2) Chaz Wright (Prep School kid, who committed to Penn State when Penn State didn't have a coach. May have had a competing offer from UConn, or maybe not)
3) Andrew Nelson (injured)
4) Tanner Hartman (who was "flipped" from Liberty University - seriously - and came to Penn State for a couple of hours. Anyone even remember him?)
5) and 6) Brendan Brosnan and Chance Sorrell (two Vanderbilt recruits who came with CJF - because Penn State had about four offensive lineman on the entire roster - then got hurt, and never played)

That is it. In its entirety.


Here are the offensive linemen recruits from CJF's first two year's. Guys who are now Freshmen and Sophomores:

1) Ryan Bates (PSU over OSU)
2) Sterling Jenkins (PSU over Michigan)
3) Steven Gonzalez (PSU over OSU)
4) Will Fries (PSU over Michigan)
5) Connor McGovern (PSU over Michigan State and Stanford)
6) Alex Gellerstedt (PSU over Northwestern and Pitt)
7) Michael Menet (PSU over OSU)

Hartman flipped from Maryland.

 

[rmem]

This is a team with elite talent at multiple positions, but not at all position groups. I am not sure what to say about the OL, I am really pretty disappointed in their big-game performance to be honest. We are stacked at RB, WR, DB and probably ok at OL. We are 2 years away on DL and LB and that is what makes this team NOT a top 10 team if you took away Superman. With Superman, I think we are ranked right about where we should be.

 

[olelion]

How smart are PSU fans really?

They complain when PSU wins 56-0 and they complain when PSU wins 56-42. They complain when the LB recruits are too small and then they complain when they are too big.

Can you name a coach better than JF that actually wants this job?

Jesus h christ who is complaing? I just wonder how good they are

 

[rmem]

How smart are PSU fans really?

They complain when PSU wins 56-0 and they complain when PSU wins 56-42. They complain when the LB recruits are too small and then they complain when they are too big.

Can you name a coach better than JF that actually wants this job?

How smart are you really? The team has strengths. It has some weaknesses if you are talking about comparing them to the truly great PSU teams of the past. Both points are correct, don't get your panties in a bunch.

 

[Grant Green]

I am pretty confident that most pro handicappers have PSU in the top 10 - probably higher than their AP/playoff ranking.

Why do people keep complaining about a "finesse" offense that puts up more points than most of the old school PSU offenses? Those Oregon offenses would have been shut down by defenses like OSU and UM, yet we put up huge numbers on them.

 

[bdgan]

Can you name a coach better than JF that actually wants this job?

I want to keep Franklin. That said, PSU is a destination job that a lot of the best coaches in the country would want.

 

[sluggo72]

Who the heck cares?

Who shot Liberty Valance?

Which is a more relevant question, since no one at Penn State ever recruited Noah Beh

so you are saying he wasnt part of this group?
1) Brandon Mahon
2) Chaz Wright (Prep School kid, who committed to Penn State when Penn State didn't have a coach. May have had a competing offer from UConn, or maybe not)
3) Andrew Nelson (injured)
4) Tanner Hartman (who was "flipped" from Liberty University - seriously - and came to Penn State for a couple of hours. Anyone even remember him?)
5) and 6) Brendan Brosnan and Chance Sorrell (two Vanderbilt recruits who came with CJF - because Penn State had about four offensive lineman on the entire roster - then got hurt, and never played)

That is it. In its entirety.

 

[jimjim47]

We might be undefeated if not for the injuries to Buchholz and Bates.

I blame the staff for the loss to OSU. We had a big lead and they went conservative. Then all it took was a blacked punt.

MSU was a tough situation. The loss at OSU took it's toll on both teams. Look what happened to OSU at Iowa. It took an even tougher toll on PSU because they lost two starters. Add the bad weather and 4 hour delay in a visitor locker room. MSU is NOT a great team. They're just good enough to beat a vulnerable opponent under the right conditions.

And you would be 5-6 0r 6-5 if McSorley was injured.

 

[jimarnp]

I struggle with this. At times I just don't see a top 10 team let alone a NCS contender. Yet, at times they just hammer other teams. I think it's my frustration watching the running game get absolutely destroyed and bringing back memories of laughable offensive lines. Yet they are 4 points from being undefeated in a very tough division. It's not that I'm totally old school, but too much finesse on offense just doesn't do it for me. I haven't answered the question but I guess my best analogy are the Oregon teams under Kelly (both as HC and OC). They were very, very good but I felt if you hit them in the mouth, you beat them. This is strictly my opinion, but that's what I'm reminded of.

As frustrating as they were sometimes, they were 4 points from undefeated. This is a very good team. If the O-line and D-line injuries are resolved, I wouldn't count them out against anyone

 

[Madsol]

And you would be 5-6 0r 6-5 if McSorley was injured.

It's Buckeye week loser, why pray tell are you here? Shouldn't you be commiserating with your UM pals, wondering how Jimmy led you to a 4 loss season and remembering fondly those 3rd place division finishes as you stare at a 4th place finish, looking down only on Indiana, Rutgers and Maryland?

 

[LaJolla Lion]

And you would be 5-6 0r 6-5 if McSorley was injured.

LOL, you're butt hurt because your coach and players can't deliver and haven't in years. Our backup QB's...both >>>> UM's. Better system, better coaching. You want to troll over here, so be it...we'll just really start smacking you around. Psssst....Franklin is a better recruiter too....it must kill you.