We have a DeSanto protege out here!
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They probably should have hit the kid that pulled his hair,bit him, and elbowed him with a year.
Elbowing does happen occasionally in matches, though most of the time it's inadvertent. It's the rare wrestler that hasn't been elbowed. Unless it's clear to the ref that the elbowing was done intentionally and maliciously, it's usually nothing more than a stoppage to make sure the kid that got elbowed is OK.
Tom, what would your call be on the elbows from about 20 seconds in to 30 seconds in in this match?
would it surprise you to learn the kid on bottom has been under doctors care for the last 2 weeks plus treating a severe concussion, and that there are times even 2 weeks later he does not know where he his? Must be a soft headwrestlers seem to be doing that more and more. Not knowing the kids involved, or what had happened in prior matches on the same mat, it's hard to give any context to the environment. Based solely on what's in the clip between the 20 - 30 sec mark, I'd not stop the match, or make any type of ruling that involved points. At most, I would start talking to the kid on top, and say something like, "easy there," or "careful with the head"; something brief that indicated that I saw what they did, and they weren't going to get free reign to beat on the opponent's head.
clearly pulled the hair after the first headlock.
Hard to tell from that angle where the elbow came in
would it surprise you to learn the kid on bottom has been under doctors care for the last 2 weeks plus treating a severe concussion, and that there are times even 2 weeks later he does not know where he his? Must be a soft head
the bottom guy did. those are tough situations for the ref, as their primary concern there is to be looking for the pin, and giving swipes. the bottom guys actions are illegal. A similar illegal move you'll sometimes see in that situation is the bottom guy digging into the top guy's face. It's a situation that would be caught if a 2nd official were involved in the match, but that's unusual in high school except at the state level, or perhaps in some elite tournaments.
yeah, the ref blocked the camera when the punches took place, so it's difficult to see what precipitated it. The top guy had used a crossface to basically take the bottom guy over just before the whistle to end the period. That's legal, but it probably caused some discomfort for the bottom guy. Beyond that, we just can't see from the video what the bottom guy did before the top guy threw punches.
I can't recall an incident I've ever had where punches were thrown while both wrestlers were on the mat. I've had situations at the end of bouts where they are both on their feet, and a couple of situations where either there was a slam inbounds where things were stopped and punches were thrown when they were both on their feet, or an incident where the top guy was kind of rough as they went out of bounds, and the bottom guy swung after they were both on their feet.
Based on the video, I'll walk back a bit from my earlier comment that "suspending a high school wrestler for the balance of a season is pretty severe." There's nothing wrong with that comment (it's pretty accurate), but Santa Fe High's Isaac Beltran appears to have punched his opponent in the head multiple times when he was on top. No matter what his opponent did to precipitate that, throwing punches like that is never acceptable.
Hypothetically if this happened in a D1 match, what do you think the punishment would be? Same scenario just D1 athletes. Curious to hear your thoughts.
I wonder if you understood me correctly-that video is where he got the concussion. He has not been on the mat since that night, and probably wont be for the rest of the season.the surprise would be that he was back out on the mat after the severe concussion. One of the handicaps, so to speak, of head injuries is that there rarely is any evidence of it, so the ref is not looking to be overly protective of the kid's head. That said, I still don't think I would have treated the situation any differently even if I had known of the prior injury.
Refs do discuss, amongst themselves, how to deal with the actions of the top guy that were displayed in the video you posted. Every ref has a different tolerance level for those actions, in part because there isn't a clear definition of what is, and what is not, allowed.
I honestly don't know. I don't even know the protocol that is followed when a wrestler is disqualified in college. I could look it up, but probably can't do so today.
I wonder if you understood me correctly-that video is where he got the concussion. He has not been on the mat since that night, and probably wont be for the rest of the season.
And it has been well discussed since here, to the point the OSSAA got involved, cut the clip to the 10 seconds, and sent it to all registered officials in the state for instructional purposes.
My HS teammate won his regional finals match on a penalty point for biting. He's the one who did the biting.As for biting, that's another thing that doesn't happen too often. I've only had it occur a few times in matches where I disqualified the biter. Kids do claim every so often that they got bitten, and the protocol for refs if a kid makes that claim is to ask to see where it took place. If there are two rows of teeth, then you should disqualify the kid IF they're pretty sure the opposing wrestler did it. (I've never seen it, but I know of refs that have situations where a wrestler that was losing bit their own arm, and tried to blame the other wrestler.) If the ref only sees one row of teeth, the ref is not supposed to penalize either wrestler
Most of the chapters start in October, and close formal meetings early Jan-too early for your process to be useful. When State Director of Officials sends out something this late, he feels really strongly. Talked to several officials who had seen video already, and the consensus would be UNR at minimum, with a lean to flagrant for the last one.oh, I did misunderstand. I read your prior post as the guy on bottom had been treated for a serious concussion the previous two weeks.
so OSSAA sent that around to all the refs? Interesting. The PIAA (PA's version of OSSAA) handles it a little differently, in that things like this would be sent out to each wrestling referee chapter's rules interpreter, and they would present it at the next meeting of the chapter.
as I indicated previously, there is not a lot of clarification on that type of action as to what is legal and what is not legal. I would not be opposed to seeing beating on the head, even just a few bumps, as being ruled as illegal. I suspect that the OSSAA has already put in a proposal to the NFHS for this. Only time will tell how they handle it.
Most of the chapters start in October, and close formal meetings early Jan-too early for your process to be useful. When State Director of Officials sends out something this late, he feels really strongly. Talked to several officials who had seen video already, and the consensus would be UNR at minimum, with a lean to flagrant for the last one.
I was interested in seeing how it was called elsewhere is all.
My HS teammate won his regional finals match on a penalty point for biting. He's the one who did the biting.
He got fish hooked and bit the guy's finger. Hard. Opponent screamed. Ref blew the whistle and gave our guy the winning point (with about 5 sec left).
Ref told rhe opponent: keep your fingers out of his mouth.
I honestly don't know. I don't even know the protocol that is followed when a wrestler is disqualified in college. I could look it up, but probably can't do so today.
I mentioned this in a previous post that was probably 2-3 years ago, but I saw a Michigan guy get DQd at a home dual in Rec Hall back in 1976. The PSU wrestler kicked him in the face after they went out of bounds, but the ref had turned to walk back to the center and didn't see that part of the action. About a second later, the Michigan guy started swinging and the ref saw that and DQd him. I don't know what kind of disciplinary action happened afterwards.
Pulling hair would be a technical violation, but not a disqualification (what punching is, or biting is). I've never seen hair pulled intentionally. I've seen situations where kid's hands got caught in their opponents hair (usually also caught in he headgear), but never deliberate pulling of hair.
Suspending a high school wrestler for the balance of a season is pretty severe. I haven't seen video of the incident, so I don't know the specifics. Each state has a different process they follow when disqualifications are involved. In PA, if a wrestler punches another wrestler, and is disqualified for it, then the wrestler that threw the punch would sit out at least the next match, and the extent of the punishment would be up to the AD of the school, after they met with the puncher. It probably has happened, but I can't recall a similar situation in PA where the PIAA suspended a wrestler for the rest of a season based on some action they took on the mat.
wrestlers seem to be doing that more and more. Not knowing the kids involved, or what had happened in prior matches on the same mat, it's hard to give any context to the environment. Based solely on what's in the clip between the 20 - 30 sec mark, I'd not stop the match, or make any type of ruling that involved points. At most, I would start talking to the kid on top, and say something like, "easy there," or "careful with the head"; something brief that indicated that I saw what they did, and they weren't going to get free reign to beat on the opponent's head.
the surprise would be that he was back out on the mat after the severe concussion. One of the handicaps, so to speak, of head injuries is that there rarely is any evidence of it, so the ref is not looking to be overly protective of the kid's head. That said, I still don't think I would have treated the situation any differently even if I had known of the prior injury.
Refs do discuss, amongst themselves, how to deal with the actions of the top guy that were displayed in the video you posted. Every ref has a different tolerance level for those actions, in part because there isn't a clear definition of what is, and what is not, allowed.