Discuss? It looked like it definitely should have been Max's 2
I know I know:
Karma is a B
Don't leave it in the hands of the ref
Max walks a tight line too much
Laird's SV TD
- Thread starter McScoreley
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Discuss? It looked like it definitely should have been Max's 2
I know I know:
Karma is a B
Don't leave it in the hands of the ref
Max walks a tight line too much
I dislike this call a lot. I get the 'no reaction time' concept but a TD is defined as having control of your opponent. Not even for a split second does Laird have control as Max immediately rolls without hesitation on the way down.
Seen that called both ways. Naturally in this case, I think it’s Max’s points. I’d just like to see the rest of that guy’s cell phone video, please.
I would have thought that’s two for Dean but if the following tweet is quoting the rule correctly, then it’s two for Laird and I’m still puzzled about Nolf-Hidlay.
I can see the call going either way, there was a slight pause before Max got control. This is one of the big flaws of sudden death though. Lairds Dec 1st conditioning was impressive, so you have to hand it to him for that as well
I can't say I am not surprised, because I am. I thought Max had gained a few lbs, and seemed focused to the point where he was going to be more dominant this year. Max trains with Cael, and god knows who Laird has to train with every day. Max was the aggressor, and if he could have finished multiple earlier shots he would have avoided SV, which is never where anyone should operate, despite our typical success there.
He definitely has challenges with longer, strong, top ranked 197s, this will keep him fired up. If he comes away from Big 10s as champ this loss won't matter that much, other than the hit to the ego. There is a chance he loses again before March, and this will give him something to work on.
I can't say I am not surprised, because I am. I thought Max had gained a few lbs, and seemed focused to the point where he was going to be more dominant this year. Max trains with Cael, and god knows who Laird has to train with every day. Max was the aggressor, and if he could have finished multiple earlier shots he would have avoided SV, which is never where anyone should operate, despite our typical success there.
He definitely has challenges with longer, strong, top ranked 197s, this will keep him fired up. If he comes away from Big 10s as champ this loss won't matter that much, other than the hit to the ego. There is a chance he loses again before March, and this will give him something to work on.
To make it a bit murkier, I was speaking with a D1 ref a few weeks ago at a tournament between matches he was officiating. He said if the back of the hand hits the mat then there is reaction time, but if the palm hits the mat, then no reaction time. How do you like them apples.
Overall, I agree with the sentiment of the rule. We have to make it easier to score points and this is one of the ways they have done that. If you take a guy from a totally neutral position to being behind him and getting a hand to touch, then that is enough control for a takedown.. Now unfortunately for Mac, it was in sudden death (eerrr... I mean sudden victory)
My question is how would the refs score that if it was not SV, a TD for Laird and nothing else, a TD and immediate reversal, or a TD for Dean. I bet third option.
Not a rear standing hand touch, IMHO.
Do we even know upon review that's what was called?
If it were the case where was the whistle earlier to end SV immediately? The ref isn't in the picture, but the whistle can be heard quite a bit later in the sequence.
The whistle is heard about at the point Max's roll through hesitates a tad and just before Max broke Laird's hand lock. Therefore, I conclude it is at this point the ref deemed Laird had control.
Hand touch seems a red herring and the poster may be one who reads rules but doesn't really understand them (or simply repeats what they heard).
Congratulations to Laird. Dean will be fine.
Also good for Rider. It needed something besides a shutout and poor internet bandwidth to motivate a future CURE Arena rental.
Do we even know upon review that's what was called?
If it were the case where was the whistle earlier to end SV immediately? The ref isn't in the picture, but the whistle can be heard quite a bit later in the sequence.
The whistle is heard about at the point Max's roll through hesitates a tad and just before Max broke Laird's hand lock. Therefore, I conclude it is at this point the ref deemed Laird had control.
Hand touch seems a red herring and the poster may be one who reads rules but doesn't really understand them (or simply repeats what they heard).
Congratulations to Laird. Dean will be fine.
Also good for Rider. It needed something besides a shutout and poor internet bandwidth to motivate a future CURE Arena rental.
Can’t wait for the 5000 word essay on this from @CJFisJoePaII. TD or not? Did the ref get it right?
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Watching and listening to the Twitter video, it looks like the ref did let it continue, to a point. Not sure where we might disagree, if at all.
For the record, I saw neither a whizzer (shallow or deep) nor a laced leg.
Watching it live in person I viewed it as a clear takedown for the Rider kid
Have to agree. Laird was behind Dean in the standing position and lifted him up and Dean's hand hit the mat. So TD Laird. Before that rule change reaction time would have made this a Dean TD after he rolled thru. Dean will survive this and get even better than before.
I was in attendance and i can tell you lairds conditioning was not as impressive as it may have seen on the stream. The coaches threw the brick for the singlet grab to allow laird to catch a breath. During that review laird was on his knees gasping for air. Dean just wrestled a conservative match and was not the aggressor, he didn’t work for turns last night and he appeared to be sleeping. It happens from time to time, but i do wonder if this will all but make caels decision easier of giving dean off tomorrow against beard
I think it would be a bad look if he doesn’t go tomorrow. Of course what I think means nothing to Cael or anyone else….
I was thinking the same thing.
I‘m currently waiting for Cael to text me for advice.
So far it’s 🦗🦗🦗!
The rider kid couldn’t stand after the 3rd period, Dean appeared in much better shape and told my son that challenge was purely to give him a breather.
This is how refs get a bad name.
The rule does not distinguish between parts of the hand touching the mat. He made that up.
That’s why I think there needs to be a penalty, my preference is if you loose the challenge, you loose a point, if that were in play last night, the Rider staff would never have thrown the challenge brick.
T2 Laird and then likely R2 Dean on continuation (assuming not after a period ends).
The rear standing takedown rule doesn't change based on when it occurs in the match. It's a takedown.
The only thing that changes is continuation in regulation vs. none in Sudden Victory.
That wasn't initiated from rear standing (it was a double from space).
Might be really splitting hairs but in the way I watch it… at the point of Dean’s hand touching the mat … it seems that Laird’s feet are off the mat … so at that point is he still in a “rear Standing position” ? Not arguing the call as much as asking about definition of ‘control’ if that in fact is where they are at
Finish one of the deep shots he had and all this is a moot point. I get Laird is a big tough kid, but you gotta finish.
Also I read this on another thread, but I’d like to see a point deduction for challenge lost. Obviously they threw the brick for a lunger break.
Also I read this on another thread, but I’d like to see a point deduction for challenge lost. Obviously they threw the brick for a lunger break.
The "no reaction time" is limited to the behind and hand touch situation. It was not applicable in this situation. It was not a Laird TD, and since they scored it two it can't be Max's 2 either. Reviewed, they should have put them on their feet, reset the clock to where the ref is signaling 2 and started anew.
Maybe not an automatic point, but a stall. It would not have had an impact last night, but there are enough situations where it would have an impact to discourage the BS.
Of course the downside is Ryan would have challenges left to use after Thursday.
On this trajectory he wont NEED any challenges after Thursday
Nolf Hidlay didn't start rear standing, Nolf had reaction time and hand was up clear of it.
Ethan Laird's OT Takedown Explained
Frank Pavich, Head Official of the CKLV break down the hand-touch takedown rule that awarded Ethan Laird the win over Max Dean.
www.flowrestling.org
I watched this again. My above take was wrong. TD was the correct call. As Laird came up and around it was a behind standing situation and as sound as Dean had any supporting point hit the mat it was a TD.
I agree that based on the current rules a TD was the correct call. I had not seen the replay which shows Max touching his hand to the mat. I thought he went straight into a roll hitting his shoulder first.
But I extremely dislike this rule.
But I extremely dislike this rule.
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