After reading this thread I put in a nice same game parlay on Mets game later and will enjoy a nice cold Lunch hoping for a winner
Legalized sports betting
- Thread starter Obliviax
- Start date
Gambling is like any other activity ... judge it based on the negative consequences.
I'm sure you can find people who claim they could smoke a little crack here and there, and it never got out of control, or caused them any problems ... and, hey, that's great. But what if you legalized it? Would there be widespread and dire enough negative repercussions that we should restrict it, or prohibit it altogether?
As to gambling ... everyone has gambled a little in some form ... whether it's family card games, bingo at church, fantasy sports, etc. ... we've all done it in some form. So we're not going to outlaw it entirely ... so at which point, if at all, do we regulate it? And, again, we have the issue of our government making BANK off strict games of chance (the "worst" type of gambling there is - no skill involved ... just plain dumb luck), so it's hard to take them seriously when they're restricting gambling at this point. Be a role model ... get rid of the lottery and scratch offs, and then come talk to us about gambling restrictions.
Earlier this summer, I took my one kid to his orthodontist appt, and stayed in the car (it was a quick checkup) ... there was a convenience store nearby. I watched a guy, in dress shirt and slacks ... walk out with a sleeve of these scratch offs. May have been 5 or 6. OK, fine. He goes to his car. A couple minutes later he's walking back in. Uh, OK. He comes back out with even more tickets. Goes to his car ... a couple minutes later, he's back in there and comes back out with what seemed like 20 of these huge tickets. And he repeated that one more time, increasing the amount yet again. I don't know what those things go for nowadays ... I'm guessing those are like $20 a pop, no? I'm sure there's some differences, but isn't that the norm? Now maybe this is normal behavior and he was on a hot streak or something ... but he was increasingly acting like a crackhead ... moving faster and getting jittery. Over the course of like 10-15 minutes, he made at least 4 trips and purchased over 50 tickets, by my estimation. And he was one of the more normal looking guys I've ever seen purchasing scratch offs ... most of those folks look homeless.
And that's government-run "fun time."
I'm sure you can find people who claim they could smoke a little crack here and there, and it never got out of control, or caused them any problems ... and, hey, that's great. But what if you legalized it? Would there be widespread and dire enough negative repercussions that we should restrict it, or prohibit it altogether?
As to gambling ... everyone has gambled a little in some form ... whether it's family card games, bingo at church, fantasy sports, etc. ... we've all done it in some form. So we're not going to outlaw it entirely ... so at which point, if at all, do we regulate it? And, again, we have the issue of our government making BANK off strict games of chance (the "worst" type of gambling there is - no skill involved ... just plain dumb luck), so it's hard to take them seriously when they're restricting gambling at this point. Be a role model ... get rid of the lottery and scratch offs, and then come talk to us about gambling restrictions.
Earlier this summer, I took my one kid to his orthodontist appt, and stayed in the car (it was a quick checkup) ... there was a convenience store nearby. I watched a guy, in dress shirt and slacks ... walk out with a sleeve of these scratch offs. May have been 5 or 6. OK, fine. He goes to his car. A couple minutes later he's walking back in. Uh, OK. He comes back out with even more tickets. Goes to his car ... a couple minutes later, he's back in there and comes back out with what seemed like 20 of these huge tickets. And he repeated that one more time, increasing the amount yet again. I don't know what those things go for nowadays ... I'm guessing those are like $20 a pop, no? I'm sure there's some differences, but isn't that the norm? Now maybe this is normal behavior and he was on a hot streak or something ... but he was increasingly acting like a crackhead ... moving faster and getting jittery. Over the course of like 10-15 minutes, he made at least 4 trips and purchased over 50 tickets, by my estimation. And he was one of the more normal looking guys I've ever seen purchasing scratch offs ... most of those folks look homeless.
And that's government-run "fun time."
Yeah, but that doesn’t mean that their parents don’t allow them to do it. I was playing basketball at the gym a couple weeks ago and there were a bunch of high school kids there playing as well. They were on the bench outside of the court near the water fountain as I went out you could see each one of them on their phones trying to figure out what items to bet on. I said they were 18 but an actuality they may only be 15 or 16.
Just because people make dumb decisions doesn't mean that gambling shouldn't be legal. Tons of people gamble responsibly and never hurt themselves or families by doing so.
These kids are all capable of bypassing any restrictions those sites have. Fake IDs, hacking, friends, AI….
Wouldn’t be the least bit surprised to hear that these sites have intentionally weak verification systems so more kids get on. Probably just enough for legal liability protection.
Very true. I’m sure it doesn’t take much to bypass it, just click on a birthdate a few years older than you actually are and boom. They think you’re 21. Plus lot of these places give you a free $50 to bet with once you open your account, so these kids are probably opening multiple accounts.
Yeah its way more complicated than that. If an 18 year old is gambling then most likely someone created that account for him.
Here are some restrictions I would like to see passed:
You need to scan your ID prior to every bet or before playing Skills machines that are now in every corner of PA.
Scanning your ID runs a credit check. I would not want the check to harm one's credit score though.
On govt assistance (welfare, food stamps, unemployment, etc)? No gambling or Skills machines for you.
Are you behind on any of your bills (mortgage, water, electric, taxes, child support, etc)? No gambling or Skills for you.
You need to scan your ID prior to every bet or before playing Skills machines that are now in every corner of PA.
Scanning your ID runs a credit check. I would not want the check to harm one's credit score though.
On govt assistance (welfare, food stamps, unemployment, etc)? No gambling or Skills machines for you.
Are you behind on any of your bills (mortgage, water, electric, taxes, child support, etc)? No gambling or Skills for you.
Why would anyone agree to that? Every time you make a bet (which for many people is multiple times Saturday and Sunday during the fall/winter) there's going to be a credit check?
Are those against gamble people that don't or had someone in their family that couldn't do it responsibly?
I dont understand the desire for the government to be this involved.
Casinos would fight this so hard as would any major city with a casino lol
Also, you have to complete a fitness test in order to buy anything fatty, salty or high in sugar.
Take an IQ test (and score over 140) in order to put anything on the internet (social media, run a site, etc.) ... and also have at least one graduate degree in a reputable major.
You know ... nothing too obtrusive.
That's a lot of work for $30K that is anything but guaranteed
$5K/month is $60K.
And most gamblers do it for the thrill, the adrenaline rush, and the ego trip of thinking they beat the man. Or other gamblers.
It's pretty simple Lando. I'm mostly a Libertarian. I don't care what people do to themselves in their basements. The problem is that the people you are talking about don't stay in their basement. There are real societal impacts that drug addicts, gamblers, alcoholics impose on society. It's no coincidence that Atlantic City went from a great beach town to a crime ridden dump. Unfettered access to "sin" activities create problems for society.
So society has a choice. Let the rot, crime, and impacts metastecize or "pay" to address the problem. The other option is for society to acknowledge these impacts and choose to not embrace and monetize them. Gambling, lotteries, etc are all regressive taxes. They disproportionately transfer money from low-income people to high income people. I'm all for letting people choose to ruin their lives if they want, but that doesn't include them being allowed to ruin the lives of their neighbors. How do you propose society address the side effects of unfettered access to gambling?
Baseball is only ~6mos a year, but the point still stands.
I truly don't care how it's addressed. Like the majority of my tax dollars it's being wasted whether that's on foreign aid, addicts, the freeloaders, etc. The issues created from gamblers is so far down the list of what matters especially since those that are truly gambling addicts will always find a way to make a wager.
sure, but your example was a guy that cleared $5K/mos by going deep on pitching matchups, etc of baseball. The baseball regular season is April-Sept, so his side hustle of beating the house on MLB bets was a $30K endeavor.
You don't even see it do you?
OP: Sports betting has huge negative consequences. Those that shill for the gambling entities should be ashamed.
Lando: Shut up idiot. People have a choice. No one is forcing them to gamble
Me: These people's "choices" spill into the world and cause societal harm. There are real costs involved in addressing them. If you want to give people "choice" how do you address the costs incurred by the non-gamblers in the community?
Lando: I don't care. It's a small issue....(that I just spent an absurd amount of time defending on an internet message board)
What you don't seem to get Lando is that legal access and societal embrace matters. It's certainly true that there will always be gamblers whether it's legal or not. There is a saying, "what one generation tolerates, the next embraces." For the older generation, betting required finding a bookie and dealing with the underground nature of illicit activity.
Now, everyone has access to betting in their pocket 24/7/365. The older generation, with fully developed brains, generally has the cultural baseline of bookies and limited casino access. They can tolerate and navigate unfettered access to sports betting. But what their parents tolerate, the younger generation will embrace. An 18yo's brain is still developing and society embraces sports betting and bombards them with ads about the excitement and free money available to try gambling.
It's not hard to see how this plays out and the harm it causes to individuals and communities at large. It's ridiculous to say it's a small issue and not acknowledge that a far greater number of people will F their lives gambling legally on their phone, who never would have taken the step to find a bookie and begin illicit sports gambling.
The first recap is me being consistent. People should be allowed to gamble if they want and I don't care about the negative impact to society. Just like I don't with alcohol or anything else. We can't solve for it and I won't pretend we can. I'm defending the right to wager on sports with my own money.
I'm all for my kids and future generations having the ability to gamble legally on sports. As a parent, I'm not setting up an account for my 18 year old but when they're 21 I'm fine with them betting however they want and if they get themselves in trouble they'll learn a valuable lesson.
I enjoy gambling and do so responsibly. I can't stress enough how much I don't care about those that don't. You're not an idiot for having an issue with it but you are naïve if you believe making it illegal again fixes the problem. There isn't anywhere enough support to make that happen.
It's the old struggle to find the right balance between individual liberty and societal good...further complicated by the questions of who gets to define societal good and how are measures to achieve it enforced. It's not just gambling. It's a lot of things.
On the whole, I tend to agree that the pendulum has swung too far in the direction of personal liberty and "choice." In fact, in the Information Age, with the Internet entwined in everyone's life, making destructive choices has never been easier.
Still, when it comes to sports betting, it's not clear to me that one study of the sort linked by Obli makes a conclusive case for drastic restrictions. I mean, the argument against alcohol and cigarettes is a lot more compelling and well established but nobody is proposing that those substances be banned. In fact, that approach was tried around 100 years ago, and the experiment didn't work out too well.
That said, you make an interesting and I think valid point as regards the perspective of old-timers like myself who dealt with small-town bookies back in the day and the younger generations today having been set loose with their I-phones in the candy store. It wouldn't be surprising if many in the latter group handle this new freedom with all its possibilities less responsibly than the former group whose betting horizons were always a lot more narrow.
Agreed. But I am all for personal liberties but they come with consequences I shouldn’t pay for their consequences. So I don’t want any guff when I step over them in the gutter on my way to the country club.
You should step over them and not feel bad for a second about doing so. They're not your problem. Hell, kick them for all I care.
Your issue apparently is tax money which we have zero control over regardless--most of it goes to useless things or other countries.
Likewise, we shouldn't have to pay for police to get those folks off the streets, or hold them accountable for any wrongs they may commit. So, when that person you stepped over beats you and steals your crap, we'll just step over you, as well. Maybe if we're feeling really generous, we'll throw a thought, and maybe even a prayer, your way as we pass by.
I'm all for people doing things to harm themselves. It's when others become directly affected I have a problem. In particular, children, who are stuck dealing with the consequences of poor decisions.
If you take notice, everything I wrote has to do with a person taking care of their family, if they have one. You know damn well there are a fair amount of people who gamble regularly, but can't put a decent meal on their table, or pay their bills every month.
I get that's an extremely slippery slope that nobody would go down, including me. But look around and read/watch the news...and tell me what you think. Being against a policy on who should have children isn't the same as having the opinion that not everyone should.
..... and when Jerry's bookie didn't pay:
😀
LOL! Never happened.
The bookie where I grew up was right out of central casting...owned a bar...nicknamed Butch...looked every bit the part. The man was a freakin' organizational and mathematical genius. If Penn State was favored in a big game, he sometimes hiked the spread by a half point to a point because the town was full of Lions fans who would bet on them regardless.
When I was a kid, my Dad's friends would descend on our family room on weekends to watch games. You could cut the cigarette and cigar smoke with a knife. I loved watching games with that crowd and listening to their commentary.
Anyway, they'd call Butch to get the betting line and then put "25 cents" or "50 cents" or sometimes even "a dollar" on this or that game. What I couldn't initially understand was why, when things didn't go their way, they would go ballistic -- it was entertaining as hell -- for such paltry sums.
But being a smart kid, it didn't take me long to realize that "cents" meant dollars. Of course, I wasn't about to say to them, guys, you don't need to go through this charade for me...I've figured it out.
Ah, good times...
Good conversation. The one thing I'd push back on is the idea that society hasn't put controls on alcohol and cigarettes.
On cigarettes, governments spent tons of money on anti-smoking ads, banned it in most establishments, and put hefty taxes on them. The government made a decision that cigarettes cause societal harm (not just the individual smoker) and they have made it extremely expensive and inconvenient for people to smoke. It's illegal to advertise cigarettes.
On alcohol, I'd suggest there are some real societal controls. It's 21 to drink. ID checks are pretty universal bc governments use straw purchasers to test businesses and impose substantial penalties for law breakers. Parents who supply alcohol to minors can get in serious trouble, as can bar owners who serve minors. Some states even restrict when and how much alcohol individuals can buy. PA is historically rigid on this. Alcohol makers adhere to a code that advertisements not be placed on media with more than about a quarter of minors viewing....so NFL games are fine, but Nickelodeon, network sitcoms, and cartoons are not.
Society has outright scorned cigarettes and has put controls on access to alcohol.
Online sports betting, conversely, has controls that are nearly impossible to enforce and governments have largely embraced it and I hear advertising constantly(though I don't know about controls for that).
Anyway, thanks for the good convo.
I saw a thread started by someone who said they have a gambling addiction. I hope they get better and wish them well. What aggravates me is almost every single podcast I see online TV always has ads for online betting. With Bohn nickel in his podcast or any other one it's always gamble gamble gamble but if you have a problem, hey call this number.
Another reason I'm starting to hate sports.
Fair points and yes, for sure, I'm aware of the restrictions on alcohol and cigarettes. That's why my point went to outright bans, which are not in place and realistically never will be...even though both commodities are far more widely abused with far greater destructive consequences for society than is the case with legalized sports betting.
But this doesn't mean that legalized sports betting is a good thing nor that some people don't do harm to themselves and others by abusing the practice. So how to strike the balance is the question. Practical, common-sense restrictions are certainly in order but hard to enforce with so much of the business being conducted on-line.
I think it's a tough call. Maybe ban on-line transactions and require people to bet in person? But for various reasons I doubt that will fly. In any case, I definitely understand the argument you're making. It's an entirely reasonable position to hold, in my view, even if I don't share it at this point.
Limiting gambling to in-person-only means only the true degenerates will bet.
I mean, even the serious degenerates like Jerry and his pals bet over the phone, and not in person.
Is that a positive?
I mean, even the serious degenerates like Jerry and his pals bet over the phone, and not in person.
Is that a positive?
And, yet, now vaping is incredibly popular and much more of a problem (in terms of usage) than cigarettes used to be, with the youth ... and access to alcohol is easily obtained by those who want it but aren't supposed to have it.
Did you read about the Notre Dame's Men's swim team? If not....
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...am-suspended-gambling-misconduct/74818870007/
They tried to ban alcohol but it is impossible. You can make alcohol out of just about everything. And the ban was a massive boom for organized crime.
They won’t outright ban tobacco because it generates a lot of tax revenue. It would also cost a huge number of votes in areas that raise and process tobacco.
Gambling is now the same. The government makes huge amounts on taxing it. And that’s all government cares about.
I doubt they said ‘cents’ out of deference to some kid. They used it because they feared the bar was wired tapped by the federaliis!
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