Lehigh Thoughts

[dicemen99]

Kudos to toughing out a win here shorthanded, even if it was a bit ugly. If you look at my post in the KYPSW thread earlier in the week I had concerns about this match without Keener and Cenzo. I really wanted to pick Karam, but since I thought it was a true toss-up, got to go with the PSU guy. And as I mentioned Jakobsen is really tough on top, so I had thought giving up an early TD might be an issue at 197 - thankfully, that didn't come into play.

125 - Not really a surprise, I figured TF, but Cruz did a great job with his knee setting up that cradle. Not much you can take from this besides what I have said from the beginning. Schnupp is a developmental kid who probably needed 3 or 4 years to grow into a solid D1 type of kid and we have him out there too soon, he is way too small. Has some skill.

133 - I predicted Parker by DEC, and it looked like it was going that way till BOOM. More credit to Parker, than discredit to Dom in this. Dom's first go under the lights, Parker is a very strong kid, having a great year.

141 - Not surprised at all and really don't understand the moaning. Cortez is who he is - which is a 10-15 type of kid. I've said this more than once now. Karam is a rising kid, who is really good on top. If Cortez gets the TD he should, maybe he wins. He didn't, and Cael wasn't wrong putting him down either. Maybe at NCAAs, but right now he needs to see what he can do on bottom against guys like this.

149/157 - no comment again.

165 - Great, great job by Pipher. He's up 2 weight classes against a very solid kid, scores twice offensively, had the kid playing with fire when he tried to tilt him, and only gets majored.
If I'm a Lehigh fan, I'm saying how in the hell didn't we get 5 or 6 here? Pipher is a great kid to have on a team. Could end up having a Jimmy Vollrath type career which is saying a ton for me.

174 - Kutler is a horse and did a nice job strategically. Given how tight the match was, after Mark got the TD, I'm not surprised it played out like it did. The last 30 seconds was window dressing. If we're up by 20 points or so in the meet, Mark probably scores again, maybe more than once or twice.

184 - see 184. How Preisch didn't get dinged more than once in the first 5 minutes was funny. He would have been hit 6 or 7 times in the Iowa Rider match. Again, last 30 seconds window dressing for Preisch - suddenly gets active and Bo knows not to take any risks making him pay with the meet on the line.

197 - Very nice performance. Beginning to see the Hoffman match as a one-off. I thought Homecoming at the time, Cael mentioned weight issues (which could be Homecoming related, lol). Kid is extremely good in neutral. Couple of guys on here saying he sucks on the mat - top and bottom.
1) He doesn't suck on top. As I posted before, every time he has been in a position to have to ride out the period or put a 30 second ride on to accumulate RT, he does it. To me thats a good top guy for a 197. He's superior in neutral to his opponents so he's not going to just try to ride. Get what he needs accomplished and then go back to your feet.
2) In no way should today be an indictment of bottom. Not elite on bottom - yeah. But Jakobsen is a superior talent on top - anyone familiar with him should know this. Probably not running into too many guys with his skill on top, plus the willingness to ride out a period down 4-1, that's really his game too - to slow down the match. Maybe this comes up and bites Cassar every once and a while. Maybe. But guys like that at 197 are too few and far between to worry about it.

285 - Nice job by Nick. Again match situation. He knows he doesn't have to risk alot, he's going to win 2-0 as long as he doesn't get taken down. Match on the line, I'm more than happy with the way he approached the match. Jordan with a nice athletic move to avoid getting taken down the only time Nick made a serious effort.

Way too much whining going on - maybe because the Lehigh fans are tough to take for some and many want to face mush them.

 

[LemonPie]

For me personally, the whining has less to do with performances and more to do with injuries. It's frustrating. 3 years in a row having to deal with this crap. 4 injuries in November and all we get is "bumps," "bruises," and a school-paper propaganda machine.

The wrestling was fine. Would have liked Hall to try to ride out the period after the takedown, but maybe Kutler slipped away from him. I would have to watch it again.

 

[NittanyLion84]

I only wish Hall would not be so conservative and open up his offense a little more. I worry that, at some point, in his career, this approach is going to end up biting him in the ass.

 

[NittanyChris]

Generally agree with nearly all of this with a few exceptions. Calling Cortez a 10-15 kid at this point is probably generous. I'd say he's closer to 18-23.
Not really surprised at Hall, but I think by playing it so close to the vest, he was actually risking more. Kutler is strong and tough but with a little more aggression, with his skill advantage, three TDs would have been attainable.

 

[dicemen99]

For me personally, the whining has less to do with performances and more to do with injuries. It's frustrating. 3 years in a row having to deal with this crap. 4 injuries in November and all we get is "bumps," "bruises," and a school-paper propaganda machine.

The wrestling was fine. Would have liked Hall to try to ride out the period after the takedown, but maybe Kutler slipped away from him. I would have to watch it again.

Agreed, Mark should have rode out the 2nd. He cut Kutler immediately after the TD which was a mistake with under :30 to go in the period.

 

[Cowbell Man]

I agree with your assessment. I also think the outcome for Mark and Bo would be bigger at a tournament. Kutler and Priesch cannot afford to wrestle close and hope. And you can't really win without taking a shot. (I know you can, but understand my meaning).

Cassar: His blast double is a thing to behold for a 197. Pure sweetness, and yes....having watched Jakobsen since he was like 5.....underneath him is no place to be. Both will stand on a podium before they graduate. Cassar soon, Jakobsen....a little later.

I would, however, like to compare Pipher and Cortez just a little. You can argue Pipher had little to lose moving up 2 classes so maybe that makes him a little loose. But the fact is he was game and showed a nice bit of work on his feet until he gassed under the weight. I have also watched Luke Karam since he was.....like 5 to borrow my own term....and while he is growing as a wrestler he is not "there yet." I have seen every one of Cortez' matches this year and he wrestles nothing like there's a man with heat behind him ready to take his spot. What did I say earlier....you can't really win without taking a shot. It took Cortez 2:30 minutes to take the first one and man was it deep. I am not critical that he didn't finish as I will credit some excellent work by Karam. But then we saw absolutely zero from Cortez the rest of the way. Zero. He was pushing and seemed not interested/not able to set Karam up. Yes...I know Karam is a master of the 1 point match but sheesh.....you have to create some action even in the collars. And dancing from a distance where you could not change a level for a shot but instead would have to lunge means...you aren't going to take a shot. So there weren't any.

Since Cael arrived there have been a couple of wrestlers that, following a particular match I felt we would not see much more of that wrestler when that kind of passivity on the mat is shown. And....we didn't. Cael would much rather you wrestle and lose....than not wrestle. This match was particularly difficult to watch. Not a 10-15 wrestler wrestling like that. I would MUCH rather see him rebound and become the wrestler he hopes to be. He will have to be someone a bit different to achieve that. Countless wrestlers have adjusted before him....so maybe he will lie in bed this week and decide to pull the covers off the guy who wants it.

When our guys need to be animals, they are. Helloooooo Nick Nevils. Wood's quick feet saved him and then Nick just rode the bull ugly!

Props again to Cassar. That match just did not feel in jeopardy to me. It's hard. I feel pain for Matt....but...ooooo that double.....

 

[PSUisawesome]

I only wish Hall would not be so conservative and open up his offense a little more. I worry that, at some point, in his career, this approach is going to end up biting him in the ass.

I think both kids were giving too much respect but an important meet was on the line a lot of pressure. Kutler didn't want to give up bonus points and Mark didn't want to loose the match for PSU.

 

[NittanyChris]

I think both kids were giving too much respect but an important meet was on the line a lot of pressure. Kutler didn't want to give up bonus points and Mark didn't want to loose the match for PSU.

However, playing "not to lose" is rarely, if EVER, a good idea in sports.

 

[BruceK-PSU83]

I think the "moaning" about Cortez is at mostly due to surprise/disappointment at how limited he can be offensively, and just how "meh" he has looked overall. He really hasn't wrestled that much for PSU (or in college at all, for that matter) and I think most folks were expecting more based on his rank coming out of high school (top 10 P4P) and maybe a couple flashes last season before getting hurt. At this point, however, expectations are likely being lowered.

And against Karam, it wasn't just that he lost, but the way he lost - didn't do much of anything the entire match.

Just my 2 cents worth.

 

[slushhead]

Originally posted this in the other thread before I realized it was more appropriate here . . .

" . . . but Cortez needs to show quite a lot in pretty short order. Sure, he took all the shots in that match today, but I think it amounted to only two or three. That's really not acceptable, IMO, when (a) you wrestle for this staff, (b) your butt is already in the hot seat, and (c) your team is in a 12-0 hole with still another backup filling in later (165).

I don't normally criticize our guys (who the hell am I?), but color me Mike Evans with the sense of urgency in that match. A real head-scratcher."

 

[dicemen99]

I agree with your assessment. I also think the outcome for Mark and Bo would be bigger at a tournament. Kutler and Priesch cannot afford to wrestle close and hope. And you can't really win without taking a shot. (I know you can, but understand my meaning).

Cassar: His blast double is a thing to behold for a 197. Pure sweetness, and yes....having watched Jakobsen since he was like 5.....underneath him is no place to be. Both will stand on a podium before they graduate. Cassar soon, Jakobsen....a little later.

I would, however, like to compare Pipher and Cortez just a little. You can argue Pipher had little to lose moving up 2 classes so maybe that makes him a little loose. But the fact is he was game and showed a nice bit of work on his feet until he gassed under the weight. I have also watched Luke Karam since he was.....like 5 to borrow my own term....and while he is growing as a wrestler he is not "there yet." I have seen every one of Cortez' matches this year and he wrestles nothing like there's a man with heat behind him ready to take his spot. What did I say earlier....you can't really win without taking a shot. It took Cortez 2:30 minutes to take the first one and man was it deep. I am not critical that he didn't finish as I will credit some excellent work by Karam. But then we saw absolutely zero from Cortez the rest of the way. Zero. He was pushing and seemed not interested/not able to set Karam up. Yes...I know Karam is a master of the 1 point match but sheesh.....you have to create some action even in the collars. And dancing from a distance where you could not change a level for a shot but instead would have to lunge means...you aren't going to take a shot. So there weren't any.

Since Cael arrived there have been a couple of wrestlers that, following a particular match I felt we would not see much more of that wrestler when that kind of passivity on the mat is shown. And....we didn't. Cael would much rather you wrestle and lose....than not wrestle. This match was particularly difficult to watch. Not a 10-15 wrestler wrestling like that. I would MUCH rather see him rebound and become the wrestler he hopes to be. He will have to be someone a bit different to achieve that. Countless wrestlers have adjusted before him....so maybe he will lie in bed this week and decide to pull the covers off the guy who wants it.

When our guys need to be animals, they are. Helloooooo Nick Nevils. Wood's quick feet saved him and then Nick just rode the bull ugly!

Props again to Cassar. That match just did not feel in jeopardy to me. It's hard. I feel pain for Matt....but...ooooo that double.....

Cannot disagree with your assessment of Cortez. Seems not to have got the PSU memo that its ok to give up points because you can always score more.

He's talented so he's going to beat some good kids in tight matches. But he's also going to lose often to kids that aren't ready to be AAs. When you've got Nick Lee breathing down your neck, you better get the memo and soon.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

I only wish Hall would not be so conservative and open up his offense a little more. I worry that, at some point, in his career, this approach is going to end up biting him in the ass.

I personally believe the best way to beat Zahid is to gas him. Unfortunately I don't see Mark opening up against him to make that happen. Not saying he still can't beat him ... just that Zahid is vulnerable against anyone who can keep it close while tiring him out.

 

[PSUaggie]

Do we know what Cortez weighed in at today? Is it possible he is already descending to 133 if Keener is going to be out for awhile?

 

[tikk10]

I'm rooting for Cortez but unless he jumps a level above where he is now there's a decent chance Cael will pull Lee's shirt, and he sure didn't jump a level today. So my rooting is partly me rooting for him to keep his job. Lee will have his day, I'd rather see Cortez pull a bunch of surprises in March. But he has to provide the coaches a reason to think that can happen.

I've seen Cortez wrestle FS matches and recall him being kind of wide open there, but my sense is that he's a guy afraid to make mistakes. And maybe that hesitancy had something to do with the coaches weighing Lee in, he probably seems like an implied threat.

 

[NittanyChris]

I'm rooting for Cortez but unless he jumps a level above where he is now there's a decent chance Cael will pull Lee's shirt, and he sure didn't jump a level today. So my rooting is partly me rooting for him to keep his job. Lee will have his day, I'd rather see Cortez pull a bunch of surprises in March. But he has to provide the coaches a reason to think that can happen.

I've seen Cortez wrestle FS matches and recall him being kind of wide open there, but my sense is that he's a guy afraid to make mistakes. And maybe that hesitancy had something to do with the coaches weighing Lee in, he probably seems like an implied threat.

Sadly, if he is wrestling afraid to make a mistake because of Lee nipping at his neck, he's wrestling in exactly the manner our coaches frown upon. It will all work itself out in the end.

My 2 cents is that they pull Lee's shirt post Scuffle. I think the kid has great potential and the plan after his moving to State College so early was for him wrestle this year anyway. We shall see.

 

[scooterCT]

CT based alum made it down to Allentown for the match today with my boys... Never posted here before but wanted to relay quick story-- our 7-year old is not as into wrestling as our 9-yr old, but the 7-yr old turned to me during the Nolf-Brown match and said that "the Lehigh guy is very good at getting escapes, but he's not so good at the wrestling."

 

[Cowbell Man]

CT based alum made it down to Allentown for the match today with my boys... Never posted here before but wanted to relay quick story-- our 7-year old is not as into wrestling as our 9-yr old, but the 7-yr old turned to me during the Nolf-Brown match and said that "the Lehigh guy is very good at getting escapes, but he's not so good at the wrestling."

Did someone just drop the mic? I just spit out my beer. Lol.

 

[El-Jefe]

Cortez seems like the guy who wrestles free and open against lesser competition, but tightens up too much against better foes. I'd like to see him figure it out quickly -- I'll root for anybody who wants to come to PSU badly enough to give up a year of eligibility. But right now he's not making a compelling case to keep his job.

Given how Pipher wrestled up 2 weights, I wonder if Cael would've sent him at 157 with hindsight. I think he would've had a shot at Brown, at worst given up a regular decision. Jason would've obliterated Wolf. Plus IMO the reason Jason didn't stick Brown was because he did last year -- Brown was obviously wary of Jason's tricks.

174 and 184 felt like deep NCAA tournament matches, like the quarters and semis. Sometimes that's how you have to win. Good to get these types of matches now as a reminder.

My biggest concern with Cassar wasn't bottom -- he can choose neutral in the postseason. Rather, in several matches he's taken too long to get going on feet. Today he pulled the trigger early and often. The guy who wrestled today is dangerous in March.

Happy to see Nick win but would like to see more offense. Hope he's not planning to Nelson his way thru March.

 

[PSUisawesome]

However, playing "not to lose" is rarely, if EVER, a good idea in sports.

Just rewatched this match. Mark took it to Kutler he's just a tough kid. Mark will walk away from this match knowing he can win the next time Kutler will have no answers.

 

[NittanyChris]

Just rewatched this match. Mark took it to Kutler he's just a tough kid. Mark will walk away from this match knowing he can win the next time Kutler will have no answers.

As tough a kid as Kutler is, he's clearly not in Mark's league skill wise. My only point is that by wrestling so carefully, he made the match closer than it needed to be, thereby leaving himself vulnerable to lose the match with one horrible officiating call or one slight error on his part.

 

[LorenzoFan]

What I saw from Lehigh: The matches they felt they could win, Lehigh wrestled to win. The matches they felt they should lose, they wrestled to not give up bonus. Wood might be the exception

 

[billrag]

It really is quite the coincidence how good Nolf's opponents always seem to be at getting escapes. In fact, PSU's opponents in general seem to get escapes way too easy against us compared to the other schools they wrestle. Maybe our coaches need to concentrate on that some in the practice room......(it's sarcasm in case anyone was going to pummel me into submission).

 

[Cowbell Man]

It really is quite the coincidence how good Nolf's opponents always seem to be at getting escapes. In fact, PSU's opponents in general seem to get escapes way too easy against us compared to the other schools they wrestle. Maybe our coaches need to concentrate on that some in the practice room......(it's sarcasm in case anyone was going to pummel me into submission).

Well...lol.....as long as they aren’t good at wrestling. (I feel like a 7 year old)

 

[86PSUPaul]

Two thoughts I had.
At the match I thought the ref was not applying the new standing leg rule with Cortez, has anyone we-watched that specifically for an opinion?

Secondly, I wonder if Bo was feeling a bit under the weather? I do not believe they normally weigh in Van Cura as a backup option, but decided that since the match was close Bo had to suck it up and wrestle for the win?

 

[pawrestlersintn]

It really is quite the coincidence how good Nolf's opponents always seem to be at getting escapes. In fact, PSU's opponents in general seem to get escapes way too easy against us compared to the other schools they wrestle. Maybe our coaches need to concentrate on that some in the practice room......(it's sarcasm in case anyone was going to pummel me into submission).

We need an Escape Camp video.

 

[El-Jefe]

Two thoughts I had.
At the match I thought the ref was not applying the new standing leg rule with Cortez, has anyone we-watched that specifically for an opinion?

A few of us caught that on the live match thread. It's not only that twice Cortez stood for well past a 5 count before a mat return -- but the ref didn't even bother to start counting.

 

[RoarLions1]

Two thoughts I had.
At the match I thought the ref was not applying the new standing leg rule with Cortez, has anyone we-watched that specifically for an opinion?

A few of us caught that on the live match thread. It's not only that twice Cortez stood for well past a 5 count before a mat return -- but the ref didn't even bother to start counting.

If I understand these comments correctly...

There is no "new standing leg rule", and there is no 5-count in the standing position.

All rules regarding "legs" in the standing position were removed, and the rulebook simply states that stalling shall be called when the offensive wrestler is not making an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat. No 5-count, only "effort to return".

 

[SpikingWhamos]

If I understand these comments correctly...

There is no "new standing leg rule", and there is no 5-count in the standing position.

All rules regarding "legs" in the standing position were removed, and the rulebook simply states that stalling shall be called when the offensive wrestler is not making an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat. No 5-count, only "effort to return".

I'll quibble slightly that removing all of the caveats about when the legs went qualifies as a "new standing leg rule" in effect. Maybe "different standing leg rule" is more accurate.

And I wish they'd go to an auto-5 count when standing like they have with dropping to the leg, etc. Too much ambiguity.

 

[RoarLions1]

Perspective...

It's a long season, yesterday was not the best our team had to offer, for many reasons...so it's my thought that the best is yet to come...by far, so no worries Good on the wrestlers to come back and win the dual. The match yesterday will pay dividends down the road.

-- Two guys missing from the line-up.
-- A very good opponent.
-- Hostile (away) environment.
-- Academics (last week of classes, followed by finals).
-- Stalling rules ignored, and while I'm not a lip-reader, I'm sure Casey and Cael (Maybe Cody too) were telling the ref "you're killing our sport" a few times during the match. (Note: this won't happen at tournament time)...
...plus more.

 

[RoarLions1]

I'll quibble slightly that removing all of the caveats about when the legs went qualifies as a "new standing leg rule" in effect. Maybe "different standing leg rule" is more accurate.

And I wish they'd go to an auto-5 count when standing like they have with dropping to the leg, etc. Too much ambiguity.

...just saying that both rule book references to applying legs (before and after standing were different rules) are now gone. Not a single Rule Book reference to applying legs when standing.

 

[Nittfan95]

It seems to me that there is this general sense from other boards that Penn State underperformed yesterday against Lehigh. On the contrary, Penn State (like all great teams) rose to the occasion and got the W. We got the W with two starters out and one major starter not 100% against a very strong Lehigh team that will more than likely finish top 5 at NCAAs this year.

 

[El-Jefe]

If I understand these comments correctly...

There is no "new standing leg rule", and there is no 5-count in the standing position.

All rules regarding "legs" in the standing position were removed, and the rulebook simply states that stalling shall be called when the offensive wrestler is not making an effort to return the defensive wrestler to the mat. No 5-count, only "effort to return".

Understood on the rules. My point about a 5 count is that's the generally understood threshold for stalling in other applications, as such the ref should have it internalized if not explicitly using.

For as long as Karam took to bring Cortez down both times, the ref was pretty lenient with the "effort to return" standard. Twice.

That said, it's a quibble. Cortez had the opportunity to win the match on feet.

 

[Hedonist1]

Not much can be done at 125 - I know the kid is trying but doesn't appear to be of DI caliber.

Cortez is a big disappointment considering his pedigree....time to get Lee ready - he wins that match yesterday in my opinion.

Lehigh's top guns strong as hell and wrestling to keep it close for last second TD to pull off the upsets. I agree with someone in that Bo didn't look like himself although, again, a good opponent who didn't want to wrestle in offensive posture. Good to get out of there with a win. With Keener, Lee and Joseph in lineup team will be in good shape although the suckeyes look pretty tough this year.

 

[andegre]

141 - Not surprised at all and really don't understand the moaning. Cortez is who he is - which is a 10-15 type of kid. I've said this more than once now. Karam is a rising kid, who is really good on top. If Cortez gets the TD he should, maybe he wins. He didn't, and Cael wasn't wrong putting him down either. Maybe at NCAAs, but right now he needs to see what he can do on bottom against guys like this.

Completely agree with this. The only time you choose neutral is in B1G's or NCAA's. Anything other than that you're still trying to improve in every position you can.

 

[jtothemfp]

However, playing "not to lose" is rarely, if EVER, a good idea in sports.

Hi! Yesterday I started a reply to this comment, but pulled it back and put it into a longer post on BSD, and cited you in it.

Thanks for the inspiration!

 

[NittanyChris]

Hi! Yesterday I started a reply to this comment, but pulled it back and put it into a longer post on BSD, and cited you in it.

Thanks for the inspiration!

Hi...I read your article and it was very well done. Interesting read.

I suppose where my thought originated, was specific to Mark Hall. I still believe that as tough as Kutler is, Mark has a substantial advantage in terms of skills. When someone has that big of an advantage in skill, and they wrestle not to lose, they inadvertently put themselves more at risk to lose in the end, by making the match much closer than it needs to be.

 

[matter7172]

Personally, I'd like to see Hall open it up more. He hasn't come close to reaching his ceiling, imo. Strange to say about someone who won as a true freshman, but I think he can get better.

 

[Dogwelder]

Personally, I'd like to see Hall open it up more. He hasn't come close to reaching his ceiling, imo. Strange to say about someone who won as a true freshman, but I think he can get better.

And since Hall’s already lost his no-loss streak, and since PSU should easily win most meets, he has really nothing to lose by experimenting at being Nolf-like in aggressiveness during the season.

 

[NittanyChris]

Of course, we're all nitpicking with Mark Hall, he's one of the greatest wrestlers in the nation and we're fortunate to have him. He could very well be a 4X National Champ.

Perhaps we're just a tiny bit spoiled style wise, watching the relentless pressure and attacking styles of Zain, Nolf and Nickal.

It's just that Hall is so unbelievably talented, I'd love to see him turn up the aggression just a notch.

 

[nerfstate]

Hall has had a pretty good bonus rate so far this year--Sunday the lone exception? I think he has stepped it up.