Mike Tomlin verbally flogs Terry Bradshaw

[CJsE]

OR it may be that Cowher inherited a team that had won an average of 7.6 games over the preceding decade and was short on talent including 7-9 the year before he took the reigns while Tomlin was handed the keys to a team that had averaged 10 wins a year for well over a decade with Cowher and had just went 15-1 and then 11-5 with a Superbowl win.

Why is it that 90% of losing arguments these days seem to find their way to calling the other guy racist?

Cowher's 1992 team inherited the following players.
*= Players with at least 1 Pro Bowl
+=At least 1 All-Pro

*Neil O'Donnell - Not amazing, but still top 100 all-time in passing yards
*+Barry Foster
*+Rod Woodson
*+Carnell Lake
*+Greg Lloyd
*+Hardy Nickerson
*+Gary Anderson
Darren Perry
*Yancey Thigpen
Jeff Graham
*Eric Green
Experienced line
*+Darmontti Dawson - 53 starts in 4 years prior
*Tunch Ilkin - 131 starts in 12 years prior
John Jackson - 44 starts in 3 years prior

Look, I'm not knocking Cowher, I think he was a great coach. But let's not act like the cupboard was bare when he took over.

edit: also like how you gloss over the 8-8 season after the Super Bowl win.

 

[dbsteel]

Cowher's 1992 team inherited the following players.
*= Players with at least 1 Pro Bowl
+=At least 1 All-Pro

*Neil O'Donnell - Not amazing, but still top 100 all-time in passing yards
*+Barry Foster
*+Rod Woodson
*+Carnell Lake
*+Greg Lloyd
*+Hardy Nickerson
*+Gary Anderson
Darren Perry
*Yancey Thigpen
Jeff Graham
*Eric Green
Experienced line
*+Darmontti Dawson - 53 starts in 4 years prior
*Tunch Ilkin - 131 starts in 12 years prior
John Jackson - 44 starts in 3 years prior

Look, I'm not knocking Cowher, I think he was a great coach. But let's not act like the cupboard was bare when he took over.

Its been all over the radio here. Cowher inherited some really good talent. This whole "Tomlin won with Cowhers players" thing is for idiots. Tomlin took Cowhers last 8-8 team and won a Super Bowl in two years.

They are both good coaches.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

Possible. Show your stats. Did Cower consistently, clearly outperform Tomlin after his first two years? How many years did Cowhwr take before he regularly outperformed Tomlin?

Lots of losing arguments raise "race baiting" in the same way for the same reasons.

So show us the analysis.

You claim to be a lawyer and can't google Cowher and Chuck Knoll's records by year?

Bottom line is that Cowher inherited a team that alternated losing records every other year for about a decade and immediately changed that and built to a 15-1 team and followed up with a Superbowl win. Tomlin simply took Cowher's strong team and won a Superbowl early and has been treading water to barely keep us in the hunt since. Yes, their current records are comparable, but they had totally different starts. One was gifted a great team and the other built one from the remains of a lost decade. But I suppose that just means I'm racist because I am critical of a minority's actual performance with statistics you could look up if you were competent and not lazy.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

Cowher's 1992 team inherited the following players.
*= Players with at least 1 Pro Bowl
+=At least 1 All-Pro

*Neil O'Donnell - Not amazing, but still top 100 all-time in passing yards
*+Barry Foster
*+Rod Woodson
*+Carnell Lake
*+Greg Lloyd
*+Hardy Nickerson
*+Gary Anderson
Darren Perry
*Yancey Thigpen
Jeff Graham
*Eric Green
Experienced line
*+Darmontti Dawson - 53 starts in 4 years prior
*Tunch Ilkin - 131 starts in 12 years prior
John Jackson - 44 starts in 3 years prior

Look, I'm not knocking Cowher, I think he was a great coach. But let's not act like the cupboard was bare when he took over.

edit: also like how you gloss over the 8-8 season after the Super Bowl win.

Did Cowher's inherited team have a top 5 QB in the league and the best RB and best WR in the damned league and have to get lucky to make the playoffs?

No NFL team's cupboard outside of the Brown's is entirely bare and you could list former and future pro-bowlers on even their current awful team if you like. Doesn't make them a Superbowl caliber team like Cowher gifted to Tomlin. You are in the weeds purposely to muddy the fact that Cowher inherited a lost decade in which the Steelers weren't really even relevant and Tomlin inherited a recent Superbowl champion. Deny this as much as you need to in supporting a weak argument but the evidence shows that Cowher had a major improvement on the Steelers over his decade plus and Tomlin is barely hanging on to Cowher's former success.

I want to win a Superbowl. I'd love it if they get it done this year. But you can't deny that we have vastly superior talent that was inches away from missing the playoffs yet again. That my friend is coaching. Meanwhile, Tomlin is concerned with looking up decades old digs at a former Superbowl QB for the franchise he supposedly represents. The guy is thin skinned and unfocused or else the superior talent wouldn't just barely be bailing his ass out. The playoffs are coming up and he is concerned with attacking a former Steeler great who was merely critical of his current mediocre performance.

 

[demlion]

You claim to be a lawyer and can't google Cowher and Chuck Knoll's records by year?

Bottom line is that Cowher inherited a team that alternated losing records every other year for about a decade and immediately changed that and built to a 15-1 team and followed up with a Superbowl win. Tomlin simply took Cowher's strong team and won a Superbowl early and has been treading water to barely keep us in the hunt since. Yes, their current records are comparable, but they had totally different starts. One was gifted a great team and the other built one from the remains of a lost decade. But I suppose that just means I'm racist because I am critical of a minority's actual performance with statistics you could look up if you were competent and not lazy.

I don't give a damn about the steelers anyway. Never called anybody a racist, I just said your whining was not backed up by any facts. You still make a summary which is little better than a guess and totally unsourced.

 

[BoulderFish]

Agree. I don't like some of his or the GM's defensive choices, especially at LBR.
And they better start looking for Ben's backup cause Landry aint it. LOL.

I think they're waiting until they think they have about one or two more years out of Ben, then they're going to tank that season -- like Cowher did -- to get a top-10 pick QB.

 

[BoulderFish]

This is part of my point of view. Ben, Brown, and Bell should get us more than a last second almost stopped short of the goal line to barely make the playoffs. Also, that was just a dumb call to go short of the goal line on 2nd down with 14 seconds remaining. You had time for at least 2 or likely 3 shots if you did it smartly. But no, they go underneath short of the goal into 3 Ravens defenders and Brown somehow still stretches it across in a 2nd effort. If not, the ball is placed at the 1 and time may run out. This is the epitome of superior talent bailing out bad coaching.

No. Throwing into the end zone from that close is very difficult. It's very easy to cover the end zone, at that distance, but most coaches would have done the wrong thing and tried to throw into the end zone each play.

That was a great call. That was coaches knowing they had the talent to call that play in that situation, and making the call.

The Ravens *almost* made a great play to stop it, but alas, they didn't.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

I don't give a damn about the steelers anyway. Never called anybody a racist, I just said your whining was not backed up by any facts. You still make a summary which is little better than a guess and totally unsourced.

Do you get any work as a lawyer?

1) You are on this site constantly through the day (I'm off work this week)

2) You state that my "summary" which was statistically backed by 2 decades plus of results is "unsourced" yet any pinhead could take 30 seconds and google and review the undeniable year by year record under each head coach to confirm it from any source they want (do you think someone is posting fake historical NFL records on their site?).

3) You say you have never called anyone racist, yet in this very thread you said and I quote

So, ignoring a comparison which seems like it could be affected by racism is "disciplined." I guess suggesting reasons other than race to explain why the coach is held in lower regard even though the stats show a small advantage would be easy, you being so nonracist and all. So explain it.

So, anyone reading could see that your arguments lack any effectiveness. You come into this thread self-admitting that you don't care about the Steelers driven apparently by and responding directly to someone calling out the race-baiting, then you proceed to imply in the quote above to another poster that called out the race-baiting that the criticism of Tomlin can only be racism only to later lie to me about never calling anyone racist when EVERYONE ON THIS SITE CAN READ YOUR OWN WORDS effectively calling someone racist in this very thread just a few posts ago. All this while denying my statistically backed argument against Tomlin (and I am a Steelers fan) because you want us to believe that you didn't take the time or are too incompetent to take 30 seconds and google commonly accepted facts instead of owning up to those inconvenient facts.

Some lawyer you are. You have the lying and ignoring inconvenient facts part down but your inability to articulate a coherent argument is befuddling.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

No. Throwing into the end zone from that close is very difficult. It's very easy to cover the end zone, at that distance, but most coaches would have done the wrong thing and tried to throw into the end zone each play.

That was a great call. That was coaches knowing they had the talent to call that play in that situation, and making the call.

The Ravens *almost* made a great play to stop it, but alas, they didn't.

No, you lose nothing by taking 1 or 2 shots into the end zone in fade type routes where it is either complete, incomplete or out of bounds. Then you take a shot at another play that could be anything short of the end zone that could get it. Did the Steelers surprise Baltimore by going short of the end zone? They had 3 defenders on Brown short of the goal, don't think so. And they didn't know that Brown would find a way to reach just inches over the line if he was stopped a yard short by 3 defenders. That is just a dumb argument.

 

[BoulderFish]

Did Cowher's inherited team have a top 5 QB in the league and the best RB and best WR in the damned league and have to get lucky to make the playoffs?

No NFL team's cupboard outside of the Brown's is entirely bare and you could list former and future pro-bowlers on even their current awful team if you like. Doesn't make them a Superbowl caliber team like Cowher gifted to Tomlin. You are in the weeds purposely to muddy the fact that Cowher inherited a lost decade in which the Steelers weren't really even relevant and Tomlin inherited a recent Superbowl champion. Deny this as much as you need to in supporting a weak argument but the evidence shows that Cowher had a major improvement on the Steelers over his decade plus and Tomlin is barely hanging on to Cowher's former success.

I want to win a Superbowl. I'd love it if they get it done this year. But you can't deny that we have vastly superior talent that was inches away from missing the playoffs yet again. That my friend is coaching. Meanwhile, Tomlin is concerned with looking up decades old digs at a former Superbowl QB for the franchise he supposedly represents. The guy is thin skinned and unfocused or else the superior talent wouldn't just barely be bailing his ass out. The playoffs are coming up and he is concerned with attacking a former Steeler great who was merely critical of his current mediocre performance.

I too am a big Bill Cowher fan, but you, like many of us Steeler fans, are romanticizing the Cowher years. He finally did win a SB, but his M.O. was to win the games that he should (the opposite of Tomlin there), then get out-coached in the big games in the playoffs. Also, Tomlin hasn't had the benefit of so many early draft picks, as he hasn't had the losing seasons that did Cowher.

For much of Tomlin's career, between some neglect by the GM and injuries, he's had to win games with an awful patchwork of an OL. To win as consistently, and go as far each season as he did, with those OLs was a bit miraculous by Tomlin.

Only the last two season has he finally had a solid OL to work with, and Frankly, if it weren't for the Bengals' cheap shots knocking key players out of the next game, last year was a super bowl team.

 

[demlion]

Do you get any work as a lawyer?

1) You are on this site constantly through the day (I'm off work this week)

2) You state that my "summary" which was statistically backed by 2 decades plus of results is "unsourced" yet any pinhead could take 30 seconds and google and review the undeniable year by year record under each head coach to confirm it from any source they want (do you think someone is posting fake historical NFL records on their site?).

3) You say you have never called anyone racist, yet in this very thread you said and I quote


So, anyone reading could see that your arguments lack any effectiveness. You come into this thread self-admitting that you don't care about the Steelers driven apparently by and responding directly to someone calling out the race-baiting, then you proceed to imply in the quote above to another poster that called out the race-baiting that the criticism of Tomlin can only be racism only to later lie to me about never calling anyone racist when EVERYONE ON THIS SITE CAN READ YOUR OWN WORDS effectively calling someone racist in this very thread just a few posts ago. All this while denying my statistically backed argument against Tomlin (and I am a Steelers fan) because you want us to believe that you didn't take the time or are too incompetent to take 30 seconds and google commonly accepted facts instead of owning up to those inconvenient facts.

Some lawyer you are. You have the lying and ignoring inconvenient facts part down but your inability to articulate a coherent argument is befuddling.

Wow. I'll be sure to keep that in mind when I need a job reference. I directly challenged you to cite the stats which prove your claim that despite the stats the other poster put up, Cowher is a clearly better coach. You gave me summaries. It is your argument, so make it. I'm not making it for you.

I granted from the outset that it was possible you were correct, and that the other poster's intimation of possible racial animus could be disproved.

You responded with summary claims and attacks on me. That's fine, but can't see how it helps you.

It was ignorant in the extreme for Bradshaw to attack Tomblin, his intellectual superior. Nobody was interested in having TB as a coach when he was done.

 

[Raffycorn]

Did Cowher's inherited team have a top 5 QB in the league and the best RB and best WR in the damned league and have to get lucky to make the playoffs?

No NFL team's cupboard outside of the Brown's is entirely bare and you could list former and future pro-bowlers on even their current awful team if you like. Doesn't make them a Superbowl caliber team like Cowher gifted to Tomlin. You are in the weeds purposely to muddy the fact that Cowher inherited a lost decade in which the Steelers weren't really even relevant and Tomlin inherited a recent Superbowl champion. Deny this as much as you need to in supporting a weak argument but the evidence shows that Cowher had a major improvement on the Steelers over his decade plus and Tomlin is barely hanging on to Cowher's former success.

I want to win a Superbowl. I'd love it if they get it done this year. But you can't deny that we have vastly superior talent that was inches away from missing the playoffs yet again. That my friend is coaching. Meanwhile, Tomlin is concerned with looking up decades old digs at a former Superbowl QB for the franchise he supposedly represents. The guy is thin skinned and unfocused or else the superior talent wouldn't just barely be bailing his ass out. The playoffs are coming up and he is concerned with attacking a former Steeler great who was merely critical of his current mediocre performance.

Tomlin is the guy who drafted the best WR and the best RB in the league. Cowher certainly isn't at all responsible for Bell and Brown being on the team - Tomlin is responsible for assembling that talent.

More broadly, I don't think averaging more than 10 wins per season, 7 playoff appearances, 2 super bowl appearances and one title in ten years is even particularly close to mediocre or "barely hanging on". To suggest that it is makes Steelers fans appear pretty spoiled to the rest of the league, IMO. Again, if you don't want Tomlin there's probably 28-30 teams and fanbases who would take him in a heartbeat. Be happy for your sake that the Steelers' ownership has a lot more respect for what Tomlin has done than the fans do.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

Wow. I'll be sure to keep that in mind when I need a job reference. I directly challenged you to cite the stats which prove your claim that despite the stats the other poster put up, Cowher is a clearly better coach. You gave me summaries. It is your argument, so make it. I'm not making it for you.

I granted from the outset that it was possible you were correct, and that the other poster's intimation of possible racial animus could be disproved.

You responded with summary claims and attacks on me. That's fine, but can't see how it helps you.

It was ignorant in the extreme for Bradshaw to attack Tomblin, his intellectual superior. Nobody was interested in having TB as a coach when he was done.

Larry, you continually display poor logic and reasoning.

1) My claim does not require posting stats. Again, a grade school kid with a smartphone could tell you those stats in less than a minute. They aren't even debatable facts. They are the team's records under each coach. Your insistence on this point is evidence that you don't want to discuss facts as they are clearly not in your argument's favor.

2) When did you grant that I was possibly correct? All I can find is your strong implication in your own words that I had quoted above and you subsequently lied about that my position is in fact racially motivated. You have a losing argument, you know it, and your only retort is race. That argument fails when logic and reasoning are applied to the set of facts that I offered which you apparently refuse to accept but everyone knows is common knowledge and indisputable. It is perhaps your political reflex at work. But no one likes someone abandoning facts, logic, and reasoning in favor of hurling racism claims which is why you fail. My attack is on your inability to make a coherent argument to back up your original implication of racism on me and another poster. Just because someone doesn't share your point of view it does not follow that they are racist.

3) Your attempt to sidetrack the argument with the claim that Tomlin is intellectually superior to Bradshaw has no metrics by which to verify. It is simply your ignorant guess, nothing more. It is possibly true but you have not presented sound logic or reasoning to suppose what you have. Is it how Bradshaw speaks or looks? Is it that Bradshaw took the easier and lucrative post-NFL career verses the route Tomlin had taken? Do you have evidence of Bradshaw trying for long periods to get hired as a coach? No. You simply have made an ignorant guess like I suspect you have in choosing your sides in this argument about a team that you have proclaimed that you don't even care about.

You entered this argument to leverage the racism claim against people who don't share your political views and it makes you look small. You have abandoned logic and reasoning and deferred to a lie that was exposed by your own words in this very thread, refused to accept indisputable facts, and now in an attempt to distract from your losing argument created a straw man about which celebrity is intellectually superior based on your ignorant guess.

Let it go. “The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.” You know that you have a losing argument, be smart and humble enough to accept that my original claim of Cowher being the superior coach is based on applying sound logic to indisputable facts rather skin color as you originally implied in the quote I reposted of your own words and be man enough to retract your accusation of such to the other poster who simply said that it wasn't based upon race.

 

[demlion]

Larry, you continually display poor logic and reasoning.

1) My claim does not require posting stats. Again, a grade school kid with a smartphone could tell you those stats in less than a minute. They aren't even debatable facts. They are the team's records under each coach. Your insistence on this point is evidence that you don't want to discuss facts as they are clearly not in your argument's favor.

2) When did you grant that I was possibly correct? All I can find is your strong implication in your own words that I had quoted above and you subsequently lied about that my position is in fact racially motivated. You have a losing argument, you know it, and your only retort is race. That argument fails when logic and reasoning are applied to the set of facts that I offered which you apparently refuse to accept but everyone knows is common knowledge and indisputable. It is perhaps your political reflex at work. But no one likes someone abandoning facts, logic, and reasoning in favor of hurling racism claims which is why you fail. My attack is on your inability to make a coherent argument to back up your original implication of racism on me and another poster. Just because someone doesn't share your point of view it does not follow that they are racist.

3) Your attempt to sidetrack the argument with the claim that Tomlin is intellectually superior to Bradshaw has no metrics by which to verify. It is simply your ignorant guess, nothing more. It is possibly true but you have not presented sound logic or reasoning to suppose what you have. Is it how Bradshaw speaks or looks? Is it that Bradshaw took the easier and lucrative post-NFL career verses the route Tomlin had taken? Do you have evidence of Bradshaw trying for long periods to get hired as a coach? No. You simply have made an ignorant guess like I suspect you have in choosing your sides in this argument about a team that you have proclaimed that you don't even care about.

You entered this argument to leverage the racism claim against people who don't share your political views and it makes you look small. You have abandoned logic and reasoning and deferred to a lie that was exposed by your own words in this very thread, refused to accept indisputable facts, and now in an attempt to distract from your losing argument created a straw man about which celebrity is intellectually superior based on your ignorant guess.

Let it go. “The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.” You know that you have a losing argument, be smart and humble enough to accept that my original claim of Cowher being the superior coach is based on applying sound logic to indisputable facts rather skin color as you originally implied in the quote I reposted of your own words and be man enough to retract your accusation of such to the other poster who simply said that it wasn't based upon race.

"Possible. Show your stats. Did Cower consistently, clearly outperform Tomlin after his first two years? How many years did Cowhwr take before he regularly outperformed Tomlin?

Lots of losing arguments raise "race baiting" in the same way for the same reasons.

So show us the analysis."

FOURTEEN HOURS AGO. LOL Post 80

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

Tomlin is the guy who drafted the best WR and the best RB in the league. Cowher certainly isn't at all responsible for Bell and Brown being on the team - Tomlin is responsible for assembling that talent.

More broadly, I don't think averaging more than 10 wins per season, 7 playoff appearances, 2 super bowl appearances and one title in ten years is even particularly close to mediocre or "barely hanging on". To suggest that it is makes Steelers fans appear pretty spoiled to the rest of the league, IMO. Again, if you don't want Tomlin there's probably 28-30 teams and fanbases who would take him in a heartbeat. Be happy for your sake that the Steelers' ownership has a lot more respect for what Tomlin has done than the fans do.

OK, Tomlin has merely maintained decent success that Cowher had established after Cowher was handed a team that was irrelevant for a decade. I expect greatness from my Steelers. We are one of the iconic brands with tradition and history and every advantage. I expect to not barely make the playoffs on fluke but amazingly athletic plays. I measure coaches by how much they win with the given talent. Tomlin grades out on this OK, certainly not great.

On the draft, general manager Kevin Colbert gets the call. He has helped direct traffic in the Steelers' war room during the Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin regimes. Does Tomlin have input? Yes, but Colbert is the final word as it was with Cowher. So the only thing that has changed is the coaches, not the draft. You can't give Tomlin credit for something that he only has input on and not the final decision and not give Cowher that same credit. Somehow with identical conditions, Cowher raised a franchise from a lost decade and Tomlin merely maintained most of that level of success. I think that makes Cowher far superior but we can't have Tomlin coach after the lost decade and see if he could build what Cowher did. We can only say that Tomlin has been a good placeholder.

 

[BoulderFish]

OK, Tomlin has merely maintained decent success that Cowher had established after Cowher was handed a team that was irrelevant for a decade. I expect greatness from my Steelers. We are one of the iconic brands with tradition and history and every advantage. I expect to not barely make the playoffs on fluke but amazingly athletic plays. I measure coaches by how much they win with the given talent. Tomlin grades out on this OK, certainly not great.

On the draft, general manager Kevin Colbert gets the call. He has helped direct traffic in the Steelers' war room during the Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin regimes. Does Tomlin have input? Yes, but Colbert is the final word as it was with Cowher. So the only thing that has changed is the coaches, not the draft. You can't give Tomlin credit for something that he only has input on and not the final decision and not give Cowher that same credit. Somehow with identical conditions, Cowher raised a franchise from a lost decade and Tomlin merely maintained most of that level of success. I think that makes Cowher far superior but we can't have Tomlin coach after the lost decade and see if he could build what Cowher did. We can only say that Tomlin has been a good placeholder.

Wait. So you want to give Cowher credit for the great team that he handed Tomlin (with which, Tomlin won a super bowl, by the way), but you won't give Tomlin credit for the greatness of this current team (namely Bell and Brown)? How do you reconcile that?

So anyway, the only thing that changed was the coaches (your words), and...
1) Both won exactly one super bowl with essentially the same team.
2) Both also have a loss in the super bowl with similar, but different Steeler teams.
3) Tomlin has never had a losing season.
4) Cowher had three (or was it four) losing seasons (and the high draft picks you get after losing seasons).

But yet, in your mind, Cowher was a much better coach.

Wut?

That makes no sense.

 

[demlion]

Wait. So you want to give Cowher credit for the great team that he handed Tomlin (with which, Tomlin won a super bowl, by the way), but you won't give Tomlin credit for the greatness of this current team (namely Bell and Brown)? How do you reconcile that?

So anyway, the only thing that changed was the coaches (your words), and...
1) Both won exactly one super bowl with essentially the same team.
2) Both also have a loss in the super bowl with similar, but different Steeler teams.
3) Tomlin has never had a losing season.
4) Cowher had three (or was it four) losing seasons (and the high draft picks you get after losing seasons).

But yet, in your mind, Cowher was a much better coach.

Wut?

That makes no sense.

But any 3d grader could show you the stats which prove his point in a minute with a cell phone. This despite his having been asked >15 hours ago for those same stats.

We both know what this means. No stats.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

"Possible. Show your stats. Did Cower consistently, clearly outperform Tomlin after his first two years? How many years did Cowhwr take before he regularly outperformed Tomlin?

Lots of losing arguments raise "race baiting" in the same way for the same reasons.

So show us the analysis."

FOURTEEN HOURS AGO. LOL Post 80

Anyone can look up the year by year records. These are undeniable facts.

Your 1st 2 years criteria are a cherry picked range of the data. Why did you choose 2 years? Hmmm. Is it that Tomlin won a Superbowl in year 2 with Cowher's team? Why are you attempting dishonestly to frame the argument under a cherry picked data range?

But I'll play. Cowher inherited a team that averaged 7.6 wins per year for the previous decade and averaged 10 wins in his 1st 2 years. Tomlin inherited a team that averaged 10 wins for a decade plus and averaged 11 wins his first 2 years. From here we see that Cowher maintained a 10 win average and crescendoed with a 15-1 season and then a Superbowl champion before bowing out. Tomlin however, has never repeated his earlier success of his first 2 years with a very slight decrease in performance to where he is now averaging 9.4 wins per year over the last 5 years.

So Cowher inherited a mediocre team and built a champion. He turned over a championship caliber team to Tomlin who did win one with Cowher's team. Then Tomlin entered a slow decline. Now we are averaging about 1 less win per year over the last 5 years. One could effectively argue that if the trend holds, another decade of Tomlin brings the Steelers back to being a mediocre team again.

This is analysis of the statistics in a meaningful way that analyzes trends and prior year data that is available. It is not a small 2 year cherry picked window that serves as your arguments only defense. It is evaluating all years of available data and keying in on trends to understand direction.

Finally, there is no coherent defense for multiple posters including you implying that I and another poster framed our argument on racism. It is inexcusable and you have yet to man up and apologize for being out of line. A decent person would at least apologize for falsely accusing another particularly of something so sensitive. I don't expect that you will.

 

[demlion]

Anyone can look up the year by year records. These are undeniable facts.

Your 1st 2 years criteria are a cherry picked range of the data. Why did you choose 2 years? Hmmm. Is it that Tomlin won a Superbowl in year 2 with Cowher's team? Why are you attempting dishonestly to frame the argument under a cherry picked data range?

But I'll play. Cowher inherited a team that averaged 7.6 wins per year for the previous decade and averaged 10 wins in his 1st 2 years. Tomlin inherited a team that averaged 10 wins for a decade plus and averaged 11 wins his first 2 years. From here we see that Cowher maintained a 10 win average and crescendoed with a 15-1 season and then a Superbowl champion before bowing out. Tomlin however, has never repeated his earlier success of his first 2 years with a very slight decrease in performance to where he is now averaging 9.4 wins per year over the last 5 years.

So Cowher inherited a mediocre team and built a champion. He turned over a championship caliber team to Tomlin who did win one with Cowher's team. Then Tomlin entered a slow decline. Now we are averaging about 1 less win per year over the last 5 years. One could effectively argue that if the trend holds, another decade of Tomlin brings the Steelers back to being a mediocre team again.

This is analysis of the statistics in a meaningful way that analyzes trends and prior year data that is available. It is not a small 2 year cherry picked window that serves as your arguments only defense. It is evaluating all years of available data and keying in on trends to understand direction.

Finally, there is no coherent defense for multiple posters including you implying that I and another poster framed our argument on racism. It is inexcusable and you have yet to man up and apologize for being out of line. A decent person would at least apologize for falsely accusing another particularly of something so sensitive. I don't expect that you will.

Actually it was your buddy who called it race baiting. And you failed to notice for 15 hours that I conceded that it was possibly not fair to call it racism. Weak.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

.

But any 3d grader could show you the stats which prove his point in a minute with a cell phone. This despite his having been asked >15 hours ago for those same stats.

We both know what this means. No stats.

Yes they don't exist. You got me. There aren't a bunch of websites that you or anyone else on this site could reach in a matter of a click that all agree on the Steelers record each year under each coach. Further, I'm not even sure that the Steelers weren't even in the NFL during the period in question.

 

[AvgUser]

Jason Whitlock ... He tweeted:

Great: Belichick, Carroll, Payton. Very good: Marvin Lewis, McCarthy, Arians. Good: Tomlin, Andy Reid, John Harbaugh, Garrett, Kubiak.

Whitlock blows it there with Reid (as well as Marvin Lewis)

 

[Raffycorn]

OK, Tomlin has merely maintained decent success that Cowher had established after Cowher was handed a team that was irrelevant for a decade. I expect greatness from my Steelers. We are one of the iconic brands with tradition and history and every advantage. I expect to not barely make the playoffs on fluke but amazingly athletic plays. I measure coaches by how much they win with the given talent. Tomlin grades out on this OK, certainly not great.

On the draft, general manager Kevin Colbert gets the call. He has helped direct traffic in the Steelers' war room during the Bill Cowher and Mike Tomlin regimes. Does Tomlin have input? Yes, but Colbert is the final word as it was with Cowher. So the only thing that has changed is the coaches, not the draft. You can't give Tomlin credit for something that he only has input on and not the final decision and not give Cowher that same credit. Somehow with identical conditions, Cowher raised a franchise from a lost decade and Tomlin merely maintained most of that level of success. I think that makes Cowher far superior but we can't have Tomlin coach after the lost decade and see if he could build what Cowher did. We can only say that Tomlin has been a good placeholder.

How can you possibly say that Tomlin merely "maintained most of the success" of his predecessor when he's met or exceeded every mark that his predecessor set? He's maintained every bit of the success that Cowher achieved over his last decade and then some. It's undeniable.

 

[smealpsu2005]

How can you possibly say that Tomlin merely "maintained most of the success" of his predecessor when he's met or exceeded every mark that his predecessor set? He's maintained every bit of the success that Cowher achieved over his last decade and then some. It's undeniable.

It's called privilege....yeah I said it (in my Ken Frazier Voice), but seriously, it's called privilege.

 

[demlion]

How can you possibly say that Tomlin merely "maintained most of the success" of his predecessor when he's met or exceeded every mark that his predecessor set? He's maintained every bit of the success that Cowher achieved over his last decade and then some. It's undeniable.

His summary of other peoples' stats is unconvincing? The undeniable stats which he claims prove his point? What?????

 

[BBrown]

Whitlock blows it there with Reid (as well as Marvin Lewis)

>>Jason Whitlock ... He tweeted:

Great: Belichick, Carroll, Payton. Very good: Marvin Lewis, McCarthy, Arians. Good: Tomlin, Andy Reid, John Harbaugh, Garrett, Kubiak.<<

INMO he "blew" it with having Peyton in the great catagory along with Carroll who I believe is very good just not in the great category yet.
And he continued with having Lewis in the Good. Lewis might be Good but seeing as how Tomlin has owned him You cant have Lewis ahead of Tomlin. I don't think Arians belongs in the Good category either.
And I'm not sure where you put Garrett, cause I'm not sure how much he actually does. Hell if there are any bigger cheerleader coaches than Carroll or Garrett somebody better point them out to me.
Kubiak doesn't get the Good category yet either, he has tanked this year.

All that being said Whitlock is just pissed he can't bring "race" into it. Since thats his go to card.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

Actually it was your buddy who called it race baiting. And you failed to notice for 15 hours that I conceded that it was possibly not fair to call it racism. Weak.[/QUOT

Larry, you simply are not an honest person. I have copied relevant posts below. We all can clearly see that CJsE makes an initial claim that my position is based upon race. Then 76 SmithLion tells CJsE that he is clearly race-baiting. Then your interest is apparently peaked and you come out and clearly imply racism. Later you actually post that you have never accused anyone of racism after you had just strongly implied that it was racist to criticize Tomlin as I had and SmithLion defended. Own up to it. You strongly implied that SmithLion and I took our positions based upon race. Show me where you conceded that it was not due to race and have apologized and we can end this discussion. This is certainly not the 1st time on this site that I have had to quote you directly to prove that you misrepresented information purposely to defend your arguments. In the long run, it is better to admit when you have lost an argument than to be caught in a lie to conceal it.

POST 1
The resume of Tomlin and Cowher are nearly identical, with a slight edge to Tomlin in most statistics. One is considered a great coach and is revered by Steelers fans. The other is constantly called disappointing, underwhelming, underachieving, unfit to coach the Steelers, a token hire, below average, unprofessional, etc.

There must be some glaring difference between the two coaches. Something that is plainly visible that would cause people to judge the two coaches differently based on a criteria other than results and statistics. For the life of me, I can't figure out what it could be. It's almost as if people were bias against Tomlin for some reason. *cough*

75 CJsE, Yesterday at 4:29 PM

POST 2
I think this is pure race baiting.

Tomlin isn't perfect, but he's pretty good. I've never heard him blame his race for anything that's gone wrong, or for any criticism, including Bradshaw's remarks.

Obviously you do not have the same degree of self-discipline as Mike Tomlin.

76 SmithtonLion, Yesterday at 4:36 PM

POST 3
So, ignoring a comparison which seems like it could be affected by racism is "disciplined." I guess suggesting reasons other than race to explain why the coach is held in lower regard even though the stats show a small advantage would be easy, you being so nonracist and all. So explain it.

80 demlion, Yesterday at 9:21 PM

POST 4
I don't give a damn about the steelers anyway. Never called anybody a racist, I just said your whining was not backed up by any facts. You still make a summary which is little better than a guess and totally unsourced.

85 demlion, Today at 8:04 AM

 

[demlion]

Larry, you simply are not an honest person. I have copied relevant posts below. We all can clearly see that CJsE makes an initial claim that my position is based upon race. Then 76 SmithLion tells CJsE that he is clearly race-baiting. Then your interest is apparently peaked and you come out and clearly imply racism. Later you actually post that you have never accused anyone of racism after you had just strongly implied that it was racist to criticize Tomlin as I had and SmithLion defended. Own up to it. You strongly implied that SmithLion and I took our positions based upon race. Show me where you conceded that it was not due to race and have apologized and we can end this discussion. This is certainly not the 1st time on this site that I have had to quote you directly to prove that you misrepresented information purposely to defend your arguments. In the long run, it is better to admit when you have lost an argument than to be caught in a lie to conceal it.

POST 1
The resume of Tomlin and Cowher are nearly identical, with a slight edge to Tomlin in most statistics. One is considered a great coach and is revered by Steelers fans. The other is constantly called disappointing, underwhelming, underachieving, unfit to coach the Steelers, a token hire, below average, unprofessional, etc.

There must be some glaring difference between the two coaches. Something that is plainly visible that would cause people to judge the two coaches differently based on a criteria other than results and statistics. For the life of me, I can't figure out what it could be. It's almost as if people were bias against Tomlin for some reason. *cough*

75 CJsE, Yesterday at 4:29 PM

POST 2
I think this is pure race baiting.

Tomlin isn't perfect, but he's pretty good. I've never heard him blame his race for anything that's gone wrong, or for any criticism, including Bradshaw's remarks.

Obviously you do not have the same degree of self-discipline as Mike Tomlin.

76 SmithtonLion, Yesterday at 4:36 PM

POST 3
So, ignoring a comparison which seems like it could be affected by racism is "disciplined." I guess suggesting reasons other than race to explain why the coach is held in lower regard even though the stats show a small advantage would be easy, you being so nonracist and all. So explain it.

80 demlion, Yesterday at 9:21 PM

POST 4
I don't give a damn about the steelers anyway. Never called anybody a racist, I just said your whining was not backed up by any facts. You still make a summary which is little better than a guess and totally unsourced.

85 demlion, Today at 8:04 AM

People can read the thread for themselves and see each thing I said in the thread, including my note that it was possible that what you said was true (left out by you) and repeatedly inviting you to prove it with a statistical comparison the way CJ did. So far you have not done so to the satisfaction of the other posters. Forget me, they are Steeler fans, and they think you are blowing smoke.

 

[JoeLion]

Here is another take on the whole thing, perhaps a little different perspective.
http://www.timesonline.com/columnis...cle_ccf8aeac-cde2-11e6-95ef-f79cde7468fc.html

 

[demlion]

Here is another take on the whole thing, perhaps a little different perspective.
http://www.timesonline.com/columnis...cle_ccf8aeac-cde2-11e6-95ef-f79cde7468fc.html

So, LukeIAmYourFather is Mark Madden? Great! As far as I am concerned, I'm done here.

 

[Obliviax]

So, LukeIAmYourFather is Mark Madden? Great! As far as I am concerned, I'm done here.

 

[BBrown]

Here is another take on the whole thing, perhaps a little different perspective.
http://www.timesonline.com/columnis...cle_ccf8aeac-cde2-11e6-95ef-f79cde7468fc.html

well if that doesn't prove Terry B. was wrong nothing will.
No one and I repeat no one wants to be on the same side as Mark Madden.

 

[NewYC]

I'm with you and definitely think he's a good coach. When they got destroyed by Miami and philly earlier this year I was shocked and thought the team wasn't ready to play. And when they were 4-5 I put a lot of that on tomlin. He's gotten them to the playoffs and deserves credit.

Tomlin has said that he doesn't believe his resume at this time is that of a great coach. I don't think it is that far off. Can you at least acknowledge that he is a very good coach?

Yes, Tomlin would have received some heat if he lost to the Ravens and didn't make the playoffs. But he didn't lose to the Ravens and he deserves praise for keeping his team together when they were 4-5 and going on to win the AFC North Championship. The Steelers are on a roll at a good time and it doesn't seem to be a stretch that they could win a couple of games or more in the playoffs. In case you haven't noticed, the Steelers have won 6 games in a row.

 

[NewYC]

My point is that I've always thought, specifically because they aren't trigger happy about firing coaches, they are the best or one of the very best organizations in football. I think tomlin is good, and as a fan I want to see great now.

I think he's on the cusp of being a great coach.
but I think you are dead wrong in one point. no one knows if the Steelers will be good with or without Tomlin. Yea if they get Belichik I'm going to go out on a limb and say they will be better but thats it. There isn' t one other coach out there that I think is a "given" that would make them any better.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

So, LukeIAmYourFather is Mark Madden? Great! As far as I am concerned, I'm done here.

More dishonesty and sidestepping. I am not that writer and you are incapable of attacking my position. Your best efforts are to claim that the statistics aren't true even though anyone can look them up and also to imply that my position is racist, then lie and say that you've never called anyone racist, and then deflect when your own words were posted and claim that I may be correct about my argument if there were just a thing like statistics for the NFL by year on internet in existence.

The worst part of your arguments are that
1) You admittedly entered an argument about a team you say you don't care about
2) You did so with a post implying that I and another held our positions because of racism
3) You lied about ever calling anyone racist until I quoted your own words from this very thread
4) You refuse to acknowledge facts that anyone can confirm that are undeniable
5) You now are trying to deflect from addressing my argument by a misrepresentation of guilt by association with a writer that maybe some people might not like (don't know who he is but after reading the article, I doubt you can refute most of his points either)

and most importantly, you have showed yourself to be a dishonest and petty person again. We dodged a bullet with you not being elected. You don't have the character to represent Penn Staters. First, we want truth. You seem to work by deceit covering flawed arguments. But Penn Staters want and deserve the absolute truth no matter where it leads or how twisted it might end up being.

My wish for you as a human being is that you may someday be able to look yourself in the mirror and say that today you will start being an honest person. It isn't always about winning the argument. It is about doing the right thing. It is about doing honorable things. Einstein said “I think 99 times and find nothing. I stop thinking, swim in silence, and the truth comes to me.” It is OK to admit that you did not have enough information to make your earlier claim. The thing that is not OK is to anchor yourself to that claim and lie and misrepresent after you've learned that it was not correct.

 

[CJsE]

Seriously, stop trying to argue with this infowars nut. Arguing with these people just makes them more sure they are right. And totally not racist.

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

Seriously, stop trying to argue with this infowars nut. Arguing with these people just makes them more sure they are right. And totally not racist.

My apologies if I have offended you in my defense of your unprovoked claim of my being racist since I didn't share your point of view on this issue. How insensitive of me to use such underhanded tactics like facts and logic. The good news is that I learned what infowars is since unlike some posters, I can google.

 

[searay26]

The overall drafts have been poor, but I think last years' draft, was the first good draft in those five years. In general, I agree with your thoughts, but Davis and Burns have been good and are getting better, and Dupree has been improving with more playing time. But yes, too many busts on those drafts. As for time management, I also agree.

We'll see come playoff time though. I think Haleys' game plans have been too conservative in the first half.

Is Tomlin in charge of the Steelers drafts? Because that would be a bit unusual. Usually the GM, head of player personnel, and the scouting department runs the show.

 

[SmithtonLion]

So, LukeIAmYourFather is Mark Madden? Great! As far as I am concerned, I'm done here.

He is Mark Madden, and you are a colonel in the Air Force. So you're even.

 

[4rosco]

Interesting article on Tomlin and how involved he is in coaching the team

http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh...ader-guy-this-is-what-mike-tomlin-really-does

 

[LukeIamYourFather]

Interesting article on Tomlin and how involved he is in coaching the team

http://www.espn.com/blog/pittsburgh...ader-guy-this-is-what-mike-tomlin-really-does

And you guys said it wasn't a distraction but now we have espn articles with quotes from a bunch of players having to defend what their coach does during the week. Is this really what the players ought to be focused on prior to the playoffs? All because Tomlin's feelings were hurt?