The law gives a great deal of deference to agreements among private parties. For instance baseball's reserve clause was ended by an arbitrator who gained his authority under the contractual provisions of the baseball leagues. The courts respected this huge change in the way that baseball was run even though it was made by one person who got his authority through agreements by private parties. I don't see much legal liability on the part of the Big ten at all if it enforces its rules against cheating. I would also add that it has a right to treat different situations differently and whatever you are accusing Ohio State of is way way below what Michigan did. Of course, I really don't see anything wrong with sharing legal information.
More Trouble Brewing in Ann Arbor?
- Thread starter MWes11
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The rules leave it open to the conference's discretion because you can't write a rule for every possible scenario. Michigan can argue whatever they want. How many lawsuits argued the election got stolen. How many were successful?
Unless OSU was videotaping their sidelines in order to get their signals the violations are not the same.
It doesn't matter--if they have never "enacted" this before and Michigan can prove there's been other "sportsmanship" violates the Big Ten WILL lose in court. You keep talking about severity and you're right this is more severe but that's irrelevant in legal terms. There wasn't ANY action taken. None. That's a problem.
You're wrong. I don't even know how to tell you how wrong you are.
Differently--yes. No action--no.
You are talking as though the courts will interpret sportsmanship and the liabilities of the parties in accordance with some sort of general conceptions about the meaning of words held by the public. They won't. For instance, if you ignore case law over a long period of time you could argue that forcing children to go to school is involuntary servitude and violates the constitutional provisions against slavery. Your arguments here are in that vein and have no connection to the way courts actually work.
I'm an attorney. Are you?
I don't care if Michigan is punished. I'm telling you what the Michigan attorneys are going to do. If you don't believe, watch if the Big Ten takes action.
Edit: to clarify--the NCAA will punish Michigan and should. The Big Ten should suspended Harbaugh with pay. That's it. Anything else ends badly. Michigan "deserves" more if the allegations are true but the Big Ten can't act right now without hurting themselves.
This isn't only about Michigan.
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Yes, I am a lawyer and was a litigator for almost 20 years and had 150 jury trials. One of my cases involved and award of a state contract to someone with zero experience where even the people in the state administrative department were against the award, yet after many years of litigation all of the people responsible for this political award of a contract were found to have zero liability.
OSU compliance dept investigated and said they didn’t share any information with any other teams and Day backs that’s up. That should settle that part of all this as there were rumors that the information wasn’t acquired in a legal way. Have you heard the same by chance?
Somehow, college football will survive if the cheaters up North don't get their tainted trophy. Stop being so dramatic.
And you're telling me that Michigan won't be arguing the arbitrary nature of this decision by listing all the other examples that no action (not different action) was taken? That would be your argument, right? Pretend you work for Michigan and hate Ohio State--what would your argument be?
It's not about Michigan--it's about the negative impact to the conference which impacts Penn State. I don't care about Michigan. If we were in the SEC then we wouldn't be impacted. This is about Penn State not Michigan. Where's the drama here?
Michigan will argue argue it, but I don't see a huge chance that they will win the argument. They have agreed to be bound by what the Big ten commissioner does. It would have to be way out of bounds for them to have a valid lawsuit. Even then, they would have a hard time proving something like 5 or 10 million dollars worth of damages which is nothing with respect to all of the universities that are part of the Big ten
When did Michigan turn over all this evidence? Only after they got caught with most egregious, most ridiculous plot to steal everyone's signals.
Has any of the "evidence" actually been verified? Conor Stalions has had a lot of free time the last few weeks to pull stuff together. Having a stash of fake evidence to plant on Ohio State would absolutely fit right into this circus.
If I'm the Big Ten I add on additional fines for threatening the Big Ten Conference. If the Big Ten backs down now they will be the laughing stock of the country. They have no option but to stand firm.
But you and I both know that can be challenged and it's not as clear cut as you're saying here. If the Big Ten has never acted previously (we agree they haven't, right?) why now when they can cite other examples? That's a problem that a good attorney can definitely sell.
They can easily prove that kind of damages especially with NIL.
I'm not saying I want Michigan not to be penalized but I'm thinking what I would do if I was representing Michigan. I would feel relatively confident in our chances or at least that I can scare the league/commish not to act. Wouldn't you?
Now maybe their lawyers suck but I would almost be hoping they did something truthfully
Regardless, if the league does act I think we'll have months of entertainment as it plays out.
They have to option to announce they will act once the NCAA completes their investigation.
Acting just to act never ends well.
The Big Ten has already acted. Too late to back down now. You can tell by Michigans reactions that the penalties being given are no joke.
They didn't act--they made a threat to act.
Their reaction doesn't show that. They won't accept anything. It could be Harbaugh suspended for 2 games and a fine of $10,000 to get this reaction.
I think you're just being hopeful, which is fine, but nothing we've seen so are indicates anything and they definitely didn't "already" act.
Let me give you some eye into the future - someone from BT is going to CFP. I would prefer if PSU could make it but perhaps UM kicks our ass and OSU's despite the punishment. Could well happen. OSU could win out and go. No one will give a sh*t. We love our sports. The advertisers will come. Just punish the cheaters and worry about it all later. BT is not going anywhere.
Yes they did act, sanctions have been issued. Michigan has 48 hours to respond which is merely protocol. The Big Ten can withdrawl the sanctions but they have already been given out. But that would be a huge embarrassment for the conference. Its possible but they would be the laughing stock of the country.
That's not what I'm talking about with it negatively impacting the Big Ten.
No decision will be made without considering everything.
I know you're bad about everything (justifyably) but Penn State is my concern not Michigan. We just need to beat Michigan Saturday regardless. If we can't--that's a problem.
What? When were they issued? Nothing has been issued
If that was true it would have already been announced. It hasn't been
What are you talking about?
You realize an "intent" isn't "action" right? Please tell me you understand that....
You must not be following very closely. I hate when you argue clear cut things like this. And you won't give up on it either. What would Michigan be responding to if there were no sanctions issued??????????????????????????????
Are you following it closely?
At no point were sanctions handed down. You're making stuff up at this point.
You clearly don't comprehend the word "intent".
LOL at your edit. What would they be responding to if sanctions weren't issued? Literally dying with how dumb that comment was.
Yupp--read it again--slower this time
To help you out--focus on the word "plan"
If you are an experienced litigator, you get threatened all of the time with horrific scenarios if you don't bend to the other side. Most of the time it is BS.
In this case, all the Big Ten has to do is put 3 or 4 coaches on the witness stand who will explain how serious Michigan's sign stealing cheating was. Michigan will put on opposing evidence. Big Ten will believe the coaches alleging serious consequences. Courts will say that Big Ten has to make a decision in the face of conflicting evidence and that evidence relied upon by Big Ten was reasonable. Case over.
If Michigan wants to go after other universities on different matters it can.
Also, I just remembered that about 9 months ago, I actually litigated a small matter with a lawyer on the staff of Michigan who was also licensed in Ohio. She wrote a letter to a landlord on behalf of her daughter/tenant using your parade of horribles tactic. She didn't understand that tenants can be sued for attorney fees in Ohio in addition to landlord being sued. Got rid of her for about 1/10th of what she asked for damages with respect to the return of a security deposit.
We completely disagree--the 2nd paragraph isn't true at all. Especially "case over".
The good news is that we'll find out if action is taken. I won't be mad if I'm wrong here but I think you're being overly confident about the Big Ten's chances. Time will tell. If they don't take action tomorrow you know they're worried.
Do you think one bad lawyer for Michigan is representative of all of their attorneys?
I have no idea whether the Big Ten will take action. However, if they sanction Michigan (as opposed to Harbaugh), I wouldn't be worried at all.
I don't think the lawyer is necessarily representative, but it is not like the Michigan lawyers are the equivalent of Patrick Mahomes or Joe Burrow. They have no secret sauce and it is unlikely that they have truly exceptional skills.
Yes I agree, if no action is taken tomorrow then this will be a long process. But you have to remember that this is a new commissioner who has already acted on this. If he pussies out on this he's done. Its really too late for them to back down at this point. If they back down its proof that Michigans lawyers scared them off and their credibility will be shot.
I'd hope they have one fairly competent attorney on staff able to handle something like this. Actually, if they don't that's great lol
We obviously disagree. I'd be worried but their attorneys (both sides) have more information than we do so we'll find out who calls who's bluff.
He have to stop saying he acted. All they did was advise Michigan of an intent. That's why there's time to respond. No action has been taken.
If they don't sanction them it's because their lawyers don't believe they'll win. Or they were never really going to--this could all be a bluff to appease the public.
Every time I drive down a street and see 100 signs per block I always think "There's a lawyer behind every one of them."
Once upon a time in this country you didn't legislate for the outlier. Now all we do is make law to cover the one-off. This is because about 80-85 percent of lawmakers are lawyers (makes sense, I guess if they're not total crooks) and they take care of their own. Through these halls walk the rulers of the earth.
People who put rules together for sports leagues are dumb. They need to all be lawyers. Rules are for dumb-dumbs who agree to follow them.
Once upon a time in this country you didn't legislate for the outlier. Now all we do is make law to cover the one-off. This is because about 80-85 percent of lawmakers are lawyers (makes sense, I guess if they're not total crooks) and they take care of their own. Through these halls walk the rulers of the earth.
People who put rules together for sports leagues are dumb. They need to all be lawyers. Rules are for dumb-dumbs who agree to follow them.
Ryan Day denies doing anything against the rules and states that he checked with the OSU compliance dept. Some people interpret his statement as saying that he didn't provide anything to Purdue, but that much is not clear to me.
Because someone might conclude what you call 4 mph over is 50 mph. If Connor Stalions had received his information directly from the staffs of the opposing team that is to be scouted, you would be okay?
I would disagree. If the Big Ten commissioner suspends Ryan Day for looking at a puppy cross eyed than OSU would have a right to sue. I would expect that suspension to be reversed in court. No! A Big Ten commissioner cannot do anything.
Since you have this figured out, maybe you can offer your services to the Big 10 conference and you can test your mettle against Williams & Connolly.
