The case may never get to court as the B1G will almost certainly move to dismiss as the case lacks merit because the B1G / B1G Commish has acted within their "Limits of Authority". scUM can't do that - note that the Commish met with B1G ADs prior to acting. Nonsensical to claim scUM has a strong case - a Hail Mary at best. The case has no merit under the law as scUM is a Member of the self-regulating Non-Profit it is suing and the Organization has done nothing outside the powers granted to it by its Member Organizations.
More Trouble Brewing in Ann Arbor?
- Thread starter MWes11
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The case may never get to court as the B1G will almost certainly move to dismiss as the case lacks merit because the B1G / B1G Commish has acted within their "Limits of Authority". scUM can't do that - note that the Commish met with B1G ADs prior to acting. Nonsensical to claim scUM has a strong case - a Hail Mary at best. The case has no merit under the law as scUM is a Member of the self-regulating Non-Profit it is suing and the Organization has done nothing outside the powers granted to it by its Member Organizations.
You dont think the Big Ten wasn't ready for this type of response from Michigan? If they weren't, they're morons. If the Big Ten has clear evidence that Michigan cheated then they need to stand firm. If they didnt have any clear evidence nothing would have been done in the first place.
Exactly. Its like trying to sue your Homeowners Association when they issued you a citation on something clearly in their guidelines. You aren't going to win that case. You can saw that your neighbors did it too but that doesnt matter at the end of the Day.
Since it is now coming to a head and I've had my fun with cheaters up north, my expectation is that Petitti will not suspend Harbaugh. I think some staffers will be suspended, probably a nobody fall guy and Michigan will be put on 'probation', maybe not allowed receive official game tapes for a year. I just don't think Petitti has the cojones to stand up to the money and power of UM/networks/CFB, derailing a blue blood's CFP appearance. This is politics and in politics, it is strong rhetoric but the path of least resistance with punishment. It is easier to tell OSU, PSU, RU, PU etc that it was "fair" and move on. You also can't expect much from a guy named Petitti. Seriously, when was the last time a politician surprised you with severe punishment for a powerful entity/person? Unless it is a major criminal offense, the politician needs to backing of an equal or bigger entity. Not seeing OSU and PSU admins standing up to fight. Let's set our expectations for Harbaugh and his corrupt program to be full sideline on Sat. I pray that CJF can coach game of his life but history has not been kind here. Cmon, is this look of man about to be Matt Damon in the Rainmaker or someone about to sell you a car. Be honest.
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Petitti has already made a move. If he wasnt going to do anything he would have just said that the NCAA is handling the investigstion and leave it at that. Im sure he knew that Michigan would come hard at him. If he backs down now he loses all credibility for now and the future.
Oh, while I don’t know who their counsel is I’d suspect we’ll be talking about jones day/Williams and Connolly/Covington level stuff.
He has to say something to appease other ADs but I have zero faith that he cares about his credibility with OSU and PSU. He can work on repairing that over time. He won't survive venom from UM/networks/big money CFB. Be prepared.
Again, the issue is you saying "The Big Ten acted"...they have not.
The Big Ten has to do what is best for all members. That's the obligation.
Ryan Day responds to reports that Ohio State shared Michigan signals with Purdue in 2022
Multiple reports Tuesday said Ohio State and Rutgers both gave information on Michigan's signals to Purdue before the 2022 Big Ten championship game.
Not a great answer by Day. Using the word compliance indicates an investigation. He should have kept it at no comment.Ryan Day responds to reports that Ohio State shared Michigan signals with Purdue in 2022
Multiple reports Tuesday said Ohio State and Rutgers both gave information on Michigan's signals to Purdue before the 2022 Big Ten championship game.www.cleveland.com
No it indicates that Ohio state has a systematic method of making sure that they are in compliance with the rules. Prior to the college playoff game last year Ohio State checked as to what they were permitted to scout ahead of the college football playoff game. Of course, Michigan was blatantly ignoring the rules that it was supposed to be governed by.
If Michigan suspends Conor Stalions without due process should he sue them?
The position you and Michigan seem to be taking is that you can’t suspend without due process, yet they’ve already done exactly that. Michigan violated his due process according to Michigan. Clearly they think the violation is suspension worthy, prior to completing an investigation.
A big ten commissioner can suspend for 2 games and fine up to 10k. It’s pretty black and white.
I would also note that due process only requires some sort of hearing appropriate to the violation and it doesn't require that investigations take a long time. In this case we have the equivalent of videotape of a robber stealing from a store. In that instance, there is no need for a long or extensive investigation. The clear irrefutable evidence is before the fact finder. The same is true with respect to Michigan's guilt in violating the sign stealing rules. As an institution Michigan sign stealed and benefited from its cheating. Theoretically, it is possible that Harbaugh didn't know what was going on and that a more extensive and time-consuming investigation should be conducted with respect to him.
However, there's no question that Michigan as an institution deserves to be punished for its clear cheating and that additional time is not necessary to discover the facts pertinent to the cheating that Michigan did. So that the beneficiaries of the cheating are properly punished, the Big ten should act quickly with respect to the institution of Michigan football.
If you were Michigan's attorney you wouldn't argue an extensive investigation is required? Come on now.
If I was Michigan's attorney, I would make up whatever arguments I could. That doesn't mean that there is any reasonable chance that they would be winning arguments. Would also note that the outside counsel that will be hired by Michigan will be paid by the hour and they have a financial incentive to make as many arguments as they can even if they are weak.
well, i mean like duh, but buck's comment is spot on.
Setting aside the whole nails-on-blackboard quality of invoking 'due process' in a private/contractual dispute, the second half of any due process claim is simply 'what process is due?" Here, there has been an ongoing investigation(s) in which UM has presumably made statements and provided info to NCAA which has been shared. There has (now) been notice of a "charge". Michigan has had the opportunity to respond to that charge (though curiously, no one seems to be reporting that they've had a single substantive thing to say about it and instead have just said "wait"). That is notice. That is your opportunity to be heard. This is not a federal agency. It's a private contract, which allows a set of remedies (standard sanctions) with less process, and another set of remedies which require more process.
BTW, the letter from legislators is nothing more than a veiled threat. They're not parties to the contract, and they have no legal interest in the matter other than as fans.
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If you’re Conor Stalions, do you not see Michigan make that argument and turn around and sue them under the same premise? (Disregarding the fact that he’s a um sycophant and he’d thank Jim Harbaugh if he burned his house down)
Correct, corporate compliance departments not only investigate noncompliance, they also promote positive compliance through advice, monitoring, auditing, and training.
spot on. and UM admits guilt. their defense seems to be "Harbaugh" didn't participate and that it didn't help. So they are protecting Harbaugh. OK, penalize the team then. And if it didn't help, why did they do it for years?
I still think you're underestimating the arguments but we'll likely find out
I won't be upset at all if you're right. I just think it's a better argument than you believe.
He could but my opinion is he won't. He loves Michigan and would never do that.
It's still worth the risk.
Plus, he resigned and took full responsibility stating no one at Michigan knew.
I agree regarding the legislators. I don't agree with the rest. I think their case is far better than many here do because of the fact the Big Ten has never enacted this before and we all know there's been opportunity to do so. It's going to get very tricky for the Big Ten.
If the Big Ten doesn't act would you agree Michigan's response has merit--at least to the point the Big Ten attorneys don't believe they'll win?
Just as prosecutors routinely use broad statutes to punish new forms of misconduct (mail fraud or rico anyone?), there is no rational basis to suggest that a league governing body could not punish new forms of misconduct under a broad sportsmanship authority. Defendants whine about it all the time, almost invariably for naught.
I am going to disagree a bit. I would agree with you when there are clear laws. I have a friend who decided he wanted to work for himself. He specialized in water law. Michigan is saturated with lakes. My county has 300 official lakes within the borders. The rules that govern lake access and lake property rights are not even satisfied by the rule adjective byzantine. Rich people often have lake property, have a strong ideas of what they want to do, and get in conflict with each.
Multiple posters have strutted on this thread bragging that the definition of the rules are so clear cut a small claims court could resolve. That is not the case. There is plenty of analysis of the NCAA verses Big10 rules and the contradictions. If this were a cut and dry situation, there would be no law firm representing UM prepared to go to a judge 90 seconds after Pettiti said something.
The Big10 made water right rules. That means there are grounds for intervention. My personal take is Pettiti was going to do nothing until he got browbeaten in a meeting. All that has to be shown is that Pettiti is being dictated to by the mob and he knows it now. We will find out in the next few hours. Right now the biggest loser is Pettiti. He should have had a backbone in that meeting and not listen to a mob. Now he is going to look like a fool no matter what he does.
Yet, the Big Ten is going to argue they don't believe anything warranted it prior so they're going to have to prove that when Michigan comes at them with countless examples. That's going to be a challenge, right?
The decision can't be arbitrary. That's the argument Michigan will make and since it's never been used prior that's not good for the Big Ten.
It's just not. I don't care at all what happens to Michigan. I'm just looking at this realistic as to how i think it plays out. Right now I believe that the Big Ten is way more worried than Michigan.
well, it isn't a new form of misconduct. It is specifically spelled out as being illegal. It is just that nobody got caught violating that rule until now, apparently. The most equivalent is the Astros sign steeling. Unfortunately, that is a pro league and not NCAA. Regardless, their penalties were a $5m fine and lost first round picks for two years. The astros, and later the BoSox, both fired their skippers.
Interestingly, DraftKings betting site sued MLB for failing to control their teams. A player sued because he got rocked in a game and demoted which he felt was due to sign stealing. Astros GM sued because he felt MLB made him a scapegoat and it ruined his career. All of these were settled with NDAs.
All of this is to say that there is precedent.
Remind me of the particular cheating scouting/cheating claims that have been previously presented to the BiG?
if they want to make new claims, that's fine and dandy...though i suspect in scope, magnitude, and sophistication, they'll fall so laughably short in comparison that any sanctions may be in the nature of warnings.
a fair point though i suppose teh enforcement of it under the 'sportsmanship' rubric is arguably new.
Baseball is always fraught as an analogy in these cases given that the Commissioner has pretty much unlimited power (subject to CBA limits) which has been ratified over the course of the history of the game.
The OSU athletic department is just as large as UM's if not larger. Here is the hint that Pettiti overextended himself. UM usually does not care and throws their scandal making coaches under the bus. When the Ed Martin scandal came out, Michigan killed the basketball program for a decade. Athletics is big. But The University is bigger. I was all set last year for a big basketball year until admissions said Terrance Shannon's credits won't transfer. The University has never cared regardless of the history and tradition. This is the first time The University is backing the Athletic Department that I can ever recall. If Pettiti blinks, that is probably the reason. In the past the University would have told the Athletic Department to roll over.
It's not just cheating though. It's anything that can be tied to sportsmanship. That's the problem.
It's not about "the comparison" it's about "inaction"
Do you agree--the Big Ten seems concerned here?
So what’s the issue with the big ten suspending harbaugh for two games with pay again?
Stalions did something. Harbaugh did not. UM had institutional authority to do it. The Big10 does not. Who is right and who is wrong will be determined in the next few hours.
no, i don't think they seem particularly concerned here. obviously when people threaten you you button up a bit, but the simple reality is they're proceeding, and that tells you all you need to know.
michigan may well find a friendly little local judge who gives them a quick ex parte tro, but even if they do, that's going to be short lived.
Yes, OSU and PSU together are mammoth if it was strictly a numbers game. It is not. If Petitti does not suspend then do you believe the admins do anything? No, and that is where he will place his bet. UM will. UM does nothing ethical. Harbaugh is probably gone so they will try to squeeze NC this year. All it is about. They are the lowest of the low athletic dept in BT. That has been proven time and time again.
