NCAA Eligibility (Suriano)

[lobo lion]

I've seen several posts (on this board and in The Lions Den) stating that Nick can't go to the NCAA tournament if he doesn't participate in B1Gs. Where does that come from? The NCAA Selection Criteria Grid (linked) doesn't address that situation. We are talking about the NCAA here, so the chart is not a model of clarity, but it sure seems that Nick would/should qualify for the NCAAs regardless of his participation in the conference tourney.

The chart suggests that a wrestler meets the gold standard for earning an allocated conference spot if he meets the threshold level in winning %, RPI and coaches ranking, and meets the silver standard if he meets two of those three criteria. The minimum number of D1 matches to have a qualifying winning % is 8; the minimum number to have a qualifying RPI is 17 (excluding medical forfeits). With a 16-1 record -- as best I can tell, all against D1 opponents -- Nick qualifies on both counts.

I don't know what the threshold levels are for winning percentage, RPI and coaches ranking (perhaps the standards identified in the very last line of the chart), but with a 94% winning percentage (89% if you count the medical forfeit against him) and being the #2 ranked 125er by all sources I'm aware of, Nick unquestionably far exceeds whatever minimum threshold levels will be (or are) established. I would assume he qualifies as a gold standard wrestler, and certainly qualifies as a silver standard wrestler.

If I'm reading the chart correctly, it does appear that not participating in the conference tourney would be fatal to Nick's qualifying as an at-large participant. One of the secondary criteria is "one win against a wrestler receiving AQ via an earned position" and the comments about that criterion require that the win be against an opponent in a qualifying tournament that had an earned automatic qualification. By not participating in the B1G tourney, Nick would not be able to claim a win against an AQ wrestler in a qualifying tournament.

Can anyone add some certainty or firsthand knowledge to this situation?

http://www.ncaa.org/sites/default/files/DI_Wrestling_Qualifying_Grid_100114_AH_hw.pdf

 

[Reslo]

Here is what I recall from 2009. Dustin Schlatter of Minnesota was a returning national champion, 3x All-American, and ranked #1 in his weight class. But he suffered an injury and did not wrestle the full season. He had to enter the B1G tourney to qualify for nationals, but J Rob had him medical forfeit out of the tourney. He got an at large bid without wrestling at all, thus stealing a spot from a healthy competitor. He promptly went 0-2 at nationals.

The following year, the NCAA rightfully closed that loophole.

 

[RoarLions1]

Reslo is right-on with his recollection...in fact it was dubbed the Schlatter Rule at one point, but I haven't heard that in awhile. Here's the language...

If a wrestler earns a Gold or Silver Standard label and does not compete in his conference or regional qualifying tournament, the qualifier position that was earned by this wrestler for his qualifying event will revert to the at-large pool, unless the wrestler who earned the qualifier
position is replaced by a wrestler who also meets or exceeds the threshold levels for that respective weight class.

"Compete" is the key word. MFF's are not "competing". Don't confuse earning a Qualifier Allocation slot with Earning a Spot at the NCAA Championships.

 

[LemonPie]

His quarters match shouldn't be too bad. Worse case is Youtsey. Just get to the Semis and forfeit out.

 

[21Guns]

Only needs to wrestle in one match, unless he is given a draw that includes a pig tail, then needs to wrestle in two matches. Doesn't need to win either match.

He'll be fine.

 

[Lion-around]

Only needs to wrestle in one match, unless he is given a draw that includes a pig tail, then needs to wrestle in two matches. Doesn't need to win either match.

He'll be fine.

If Cael feels Nick S is good to go, than I hope none of these scenarios play out and Nick is in it to win it.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

Here is what I recall from 2009. Dustin Schlatter of Minnesota was a returning national champion, 3x All-American, and ranked #1 in his weight class. But he suffered an injury and did not wrestle the full season. He had to enter the B1G tourney to qualify for nationals, but J Rob had him medical forfeit out of the tourney. He got an at large bid without wrestling at all, thus stealing a spot from a healthy competitor. He promptly went 0-2 at nationals.

The following year, the NCAA rightfully closed that loophole.

Yup - JRob. The leader of the Upright Coaches Brigade who did nothing that was not in the best interest of college wrestling

 

[pish69]

Reslo is right-on with his recollection...in fact it was dubbed the Schlatter Rule at one point, but I haven't heard that in awhile. Here's the language...

If a wrestler earns a Gold or Silver Standard label and does not compete in his conference or regional qualifying tournament, the qualifier position that was earned by this wrestler for his qualifying event will revert to the at-large pool, unless the wrestler who earned the qualifier
position is replaced by a wrestler who also meets or exceeds the threshold levels for that respective weight class.

"Compete" is the key word. MFF's are not "competing". Don't confuse earning a Qualifier Allocation slot with Earning a Spot at the NCAA Championships.

Does he "have" to compete in the B1Gs? Wouldn't he get an at large bid even if he didn't compete? Based on the fact he does meet gold standard

 

[lobo lion]

Reslo is right-on with his recollection...in fact it was dubbed the Schlatter Rule at one point, but I haven't heard that in awhile. Here's the language...

If a wrestler earns a Gold or Silver Standard label and does not compete in his conference or regional qualifying tournament, the qualifier position that was earned by this wrestler for his qualifying event will revert to the at-large pool, unless the wrestler who earned the qualifier
position is replaced by a wrestler who also meets or exceeds the threshold levels for that respective weight class.

"Compete" is the key word. MFF's are not "competing". Don't confuse earning a Qualifier Allocation slot with Earning a Spot at the NCAA Championships.

Thanks, Roar; that's exactly what I assumed was out there but couldn't find. Where did you find that language?

 

[RoarLions1]

Only needs to wrestle in one match, unless he is given a draw that includes a pig tail, then needs to wrestle in two matches. Doesn't need to win either match.

He'll be fine.

Know what you're saying, and the essence is correct...however, there are no pigtails at the B1G Championships.

Does he "have" to compete in the B1Gs? Wouldn't he get an at large bid even if he didn't compete? Based on the fact he does meet gold standard

Yes, as I understand it he must compete, and he's removed from consideration if he does not. And just an fyi, Gold/Silver doesn't matter after the tournament, and before at-large selections are made. RPI and Win % are recalculated, more criteria is added, and they call those wrestlers Bronze Standard. Only Bronze Standard wrestlers are eligible for at-large selection

 

[RoarLions1]

Thanks, Roar; that's exactly what I assumed was out there but couldn't find. Where did you find that language?

2017 Pre-Championships Manual

 

[pish69]

Can't wait for a report from someone at practice (calling you Spyker) to inform us Nick is in the room wrestling again at full speed!

 

[21Guns]

Know what you're saying, and the essence is correct...however, there are no pigtails at the B1G Championships.

Yes, as I understand it he must compete, and he's removed from consideration if he does not. And just an fyi, Gold/Silver doesn't matter after the tournament, and before at-large selections are made. RPI and Win % are recalculated, more criteria is added, and they call those wrestlers Bronze Standard. Only Bronze Standard wrestlers are eligible for at-large selection

Right. Depending on the allocations, one match or two?

 

[lionlover]

If Cael feels Nick S is good to go, than I hope none of these scenarios play out and Nick is in it to win it.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[RoarLions1]

Right. Depending on the allocations, one match or two?

Depends on first round byes too. Here's some bracketology 101, assuming our guy wins his first match...though I can certainly put together any permutation anyone wants:

If there are 6 allocation slots:
Bye, then win 1 match in championship bracket, you're in top-6.
Win, then win again (2 wins in championship bracket, no bye), you're in top-6.
Win, then lose in championship bracket, must win next 2 in wrestlebacks to be top-6.

If there are 8 allocation slots:
Same 1st 2 scenarios above (if you're top-6, you're going to be top-8)
Win, then lose in championship bracket, win 1 match in wrestlebacks to be top-8.

If there are 10 allocation slots:
All above apply (if you're top-6, or top-8, you're going to be top-10)
Win, then lose in championship bracket, lose 1st match in wrestlebacks, move on to bonus wrestling, the 4 losers in the 2nd round of wrestlebacks square off for 2 more spots, so win 1, you're in.

 

[21Guns]

Depends on first round byes too. Here's some bracketology 101, assuming our guy wins his first match...though I can certainly put together any permutation anyone wants:

If there are 6 allocation slots:
Bye, then win 1 match in championship bracket, you're in top-6.
Win, then win again (2 wins in championship bracket, no bye), you're in top-6.
Win, then lose in championship bracket, must win next 2 in wrestlebacks to be top-6.

If there are 8 allocation slots:
Same 1st 2 scenarios above (if you're top-6, you're going to be top-8)
Win, then lose in championship bracket, win 1 match in wrestlebacks to be top-8.

If there are 10 allocation slots:
All above apply (if you're top-6, or top-8, you're going to be top-10)
Win, then lose in championship bracket, lose 1st match in wrestlebacks, move on to bonus wrestling, the 4 losers in the 2nd round of wrestlebacks square off for 2 more spots, so win 1, you're in.

Allocations come out on Thursday, correct?

 

[RoarLions1]

Allocations come out on Thursday, correct?

If they follow the schedule from the last couple years, yes. I have heard nothing that suggests otherwise.

 

[21Guns]

Interesting that they might take 9 at 133...If true, I believe George or Triston may only need his first wrestle back match, and possibly be able to lose twice and with a win for 9th, get in?

 

[21Guns]

Can't wait for a report from someone at practice (calling you Spyker) to inform us Nick is in the room wrestling again at full speed!

They might keep him in therapy this week, then have him in the room this coming Monday after resting it for a week.

 

[andegre]

Reslo is right-on with his recollection...in fact it was dubbed the Schlatter Rule at one point, but I haven't heard that in awhile. Here's the language...

If a wrestler earns a Gold or Silver Standard label and does not compete in his conference or regional qualifying tournament, the qualifier position that was earned by this wrestler for his qualifying event will revert to the at-large pool, unless the wrestler who earned the qualifier
position is replaced by a wrestler who also meets or exceeds the threshold levels for that respective weight class.

"Compete" is the key word. MFF's are not "competing". Don't confuse earning a Qualifier Allocation slot with Earning a Spot at the NCAA Championships.

Thanks for the clarification on this.

I posted about this on the Iowa board [incorrectly] saying he just had to "show up" and MFOR out and would still be ok. I've been proven wrong, thank you.

 

[21Guns]

7 allocations at 125, which means win one match, then can mff out. I think.

 

[HOCKEYGOD11]

I would think, win or lose that first match, Suriano would get an at large bid at the very least.. course I am sure he wants to win his way in..

 

[21Guns]

I would think, win or lose that first match, Suriano would get an at large bid at the very least.. course I am sure he wants to win his way in..

Of course. The main goal is to get him to Nationals as healthy as possible. GET HIM TO THE GREEK, lmao.

 

[Cyclingmik]

It is hard to believe you can be 50-0, the number 1 PIP wrestler in the country, pinned all 50 opponents, get injured with 10 seconds left in your final regular season dual, have to injury default and then need to wrestle in 1 B10 match to qualify for the NCAA tournament.

 

[SRATH]

Not to worry, Spyker has Suriano running indoor track for PSU this weekend.

 

[21Guns]

Not to worry, Spyker has Suriano running indoor track for PSU this weekend.

Quit with the attacks.

 

[Real-Lion]

His quarters match shouldn't be too bad. Worse case is Youtsey. Just get to the Semis and forfeit out.

Youtsey is very good...AA

 

[Real-Lion]

Interesting that they might take 9 at 133...If true, I believe George or Triston may only need his first wrestle back match, and possibly be able to lose twice and with a win for 9th, get in?

Nothing against George i understand the running back to the mat and all that...Yes he does not give up pins and techs but dual meets are over...Law beats him pretty bad in the wrestle offs but the coaches wrestled George because they thought he would not give up the big pin which he did well...But Law gives us the best shot to win 2 matches in the losers bracket and get a spot....Hope Cael goes with who is the best between the 2...Law wa beating Rappo who is very good till Rappo got a very quick defensive pin....Called by Revello

 

[Pennstate1985]

Can someone (Roar) clarify something for me. To complete the task of competing in the qualifying tourney so that he maintains eligibility for NCAA's, does that mean a wrestler has to wrestle for two seconds, two minutes, a full match, etc?

 

[21Guns]

Can someone (Roar) clarify something for me. To complete the task of competing in the qualifying tourney so that he maintains eligibility for NCAA's, does that mean a wrestler has to wrestle for two seconds, two minutes, a full match, etc?

Cael said that he has to take the mat, shake hands, and wrestle for one second.

 

[OkieSpladle]

Can someone (Roar) clarify something for me. To complete the task of competing in the qualifying tourney so that he maintains eligibility for NCAA's, does that mean a wrestler has to wrestle for two seconds, two minutes, a full match, etc?

There seems to be some debate on that, but Zeke Moisey (West Virginia) injury defaulted last season just after the clock started (no wrestling action occurred) and received an at-large bid. He did not compete, however, as he was later deemed too injured to make it back. That would seem to set the standard that injury defaulting after one second is good enough, though it seems silly to be able to do that, but not be able to medical forfeit.

 

[PSUAllTheWay]

Gotta draw the line somewhere. Making weight, stepping on the mat and beginning a match seems like a decent line to me. If your goal is to not exclude anyone from NCAA consideration who DOES get injured quickly in their first match, you really can't do anything else.

I was personally fine with someone getting a MFF being considered for Nationals IF they made weight but if the NCAA doesn't want to consider this I think the above is about the best option there is.

 

[jrd23psu]

I've seen several posts (on this board and in The Lions Den) stating that Nick can't go to the NCAA tournament if he doesn't participate in B1Gs.

Then why didn't you post in that thread instead of starting a new one?

 

[lobo lion]

Then why didn't you post in that thread instead of starting a new one?

Guess I'm not as anal as you. As I said, there were multiple posts in multiple threads.

 

[findtheStrength]

i understand why you have to wrestle BIGs to go to ncaas and that the rules need to be set. i just hate that a kid can be hurt in the last dual, not be healthy enough for BIGs, and can't qualify for a spot. maybe than can adopt a rule similar to the NFLs injury reserve/designation to return where you can bring back one player to the team that was placed on IR. Could help in certain instances, but i can also see teams still abusing it.

 

[lobo lion]

i understand why you have to wrestle BIGs to go to ncaas and that the rules need to be set. i just hate that a kid can be hurt in the last dual, not be healthy enough for BIGs, and can't qualify for a spot. maybe than can adopt a rule similar to the NFLs injury reserve/designation to return where you can bring back one player to the team that was placed on IR. Could help in certain instances, but i can also see teams still abusing it.

There will always be the opportunity for abuse, and certain people will always pursue that opportunity. The objective of the rulemakers should be to minimize the opportunity for abuse, while at the same time being sure they don't paint with such a broad brush that they punish innocent parties.

 

[21Guns]

There seems to be some debate on that, but Zeke Moisey (West Virginia) injury defaulted last season just after the clock started (no wrestling action occurred) and received an at-large bid. He did not compete, however, as he was later deemed too injured to make it back. That would seem to set the standard that injury defaulting after one second is good enough, though it seems silly to be able to do that, but not be able to medical forfeit.

Whether it "seems silly" or not to you, is not relevant. Nor is it correct to assume that because Zeke Moisey couldnt go at Nationals, that Nick Suriano wont be able to go at Nationals: Moisey's injury was far more extreme than Suriano's.

 

[jrd23psu]

Guess I'm not as anal as you. As I said, there were multiple posts in multiple threads.

It has nothing to with being anal. It clutters up the board to create a new thread for a topic that is already being discussed in another thread.

 

[RoarLions1]

Can someone (Roar) clarify something for me. To complete the task of competing in the qualifying tourney so that he maintains eligibility for NCAA's, does that mean a wrestler has to wrestle for two seconds, two minutes, a full match, etc?

After carefully listening to everything said, and re-reading the rules, I'll be perfectly honest...if it was the NCAA's intent to close the "loophole" we saw in 2010, they did a pee-poor job of it.

 

[Pennstate1985]

if it was the NCAA's intent to close the "loophole" we saw in 2010, they did a pee-poor job of it.

"I'm shocked, SHOCKED that there's gambling going on in here".