ADVERTISEMENT

NCAA Pre-Allocations (February 11?)

regularfan

Well-Known Member
Jan 22, 2019
459
704
1
Looking at the NCAA Championship website today, I noticed they updated the qualifier allocation criteria sheet to be somewhat more specific. Sorry for the lengthy, nerdy numbers post but this is interesting to me and thought others might be interested or see something I overlooked.

Some interesting takeaways: Pre-allocations are now slated to be released on Thursday, February 11.

There will be three coaches rankings:
Thursday, February 11 (need 2 matches to be eligible)
Thursday, February 25 (3 matches)
Wednesday, March 10 (4 matches)

I know there was some debate about the minimum 4 matches and pre-allocations earlier. One thing left open for debate even in this document is that it doesn't say if conference tournament matches count towards your total to earn a pre-allocation spot or if you need to have 4 matches coming into the conference tournament. For example, if Kerkvliet enters the tournament and goes 3-1 for his only matches would he still get a spot if he entered at 0-0? However they end up counting matches, somebody who doesn't have 4 matches is not going to go the NCAA Tournament based off a a conference finish lower than first.

From the document: "A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot. If the second place finisher in a weight class does not have 4 matches, but the third place finisher does have 4 matches, the third place finisher can be awarded the pre-allocated spot, as the second place finisher is not eligible. The pre-allocated spots belong to the respective conferences to award."

Since they are still doing a coach's ranking after the conference tournaments, I would think at the minimum if Kerkvliet enters the Big 10 Tournament with 0 matches and goes 3-1 or whatever combination of at least four and doesn't win he should still be eligible for an at-large if he meets two of the standards on page 6. Ideally, his four matches (if he would get that many) count that day towards his total and he could get a spot for 2nd place or whatever. Or just win it and let Parris worry about that depending on the rest of Michigan's schedule. Steveson already has 6 matches.

It also says the allocations will be on historical data from the past five years "earned allocations at each weight class in each conference."

That table is below with the actual pre-allocation averages by the last five years.
125
133
141
149
157
165
174
184
197
285
Total
ACC
2.8​
3.8​
3.4​
3.0​
4.0​
3.4​
3.4​
3.2​
3.0​
4.2​
34.2​
Big 12
5.2​
5.2​
4.2​
4.8​
3.0​
4.6​
4.4​
3.8​
5.2​
4.6​
45.0​
Big 10
8.2​
8.0​
8.2​
7.4​
7.8​
8.0​
8.4​
8.4​
6.0​
6.6​
77.0​
EIWA
3.4​
3.2​
4.6​
4.2​
5.0​
4.8​
5.4​
6.2​
5.2​
4.4​
46.4​
MAC
5.0​
6.0​
5.2​
5.0​
5.4​
4.0​
3.8​
3.8​
4.6​
4.6​
47.4​
PAC 12
2.4​
1.4​
2.0​
2.0​
2.0​
1.8​
1.6​
1.2​
2.6​
2.4​
19.4​
SoCon
1.2​
1.0​
1.0​
1.6​
1.4​
1.0​
1.4​
1.8​
1.4​
2.0​
13.8​
Total
28.2​
28.6​
28.6​
28.0​
28.6​
27.6​
28.4​
28.4​
28.0​
28.8​
283.2​
Taking out teams that are not competing in each conference (example EIWA counts 10/17 bids; MAC 13/14) and then re-averaging to get 29 total pre-allocations per weight I came up with the following estimates.

125
133
141
149
157
165
174
184
197
285
Total
ACC
3​
4​
4​
4​
4​
4​
4​
4​
3​
4​
38​
Big 12
6​
6​
5​
5​
3​
6​
5​
4​
6​
5​
51​
Big 10
9​
8​
9​
8​
9​
9​
9​
10​
7​
7​
85​
EIWA
2​
2​
3​
3​
3​
3​
3​
4​
3​
3​
29​
MAC
5​
6​
5​
5​
6​
4​
4​
4​
5​
5​
49​
PAC 12
3​
2​
2​
2​
2​
2​
2​
1​
3​
3​
22​
SoCon
1​
1​
1​
2​
2​
1​
2​
2​
2​
2​
16​
Total
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
290​
 
why do they use such ambiguous language? the way it's worded, it seems like the conference gets to award the allocations however they please.
 
Looking at the NCAA Championship website today, I noticed they updated the qualifier allocation criteria sheet to be somewhat more specific. Sorry for the lengthy, nerdy numbers post but this is interesting to me and thought others might be interested or see something I overlooked.

Some interesting takeaways: Pre-allocations are now slated to be released on Thursday, February 11.

There will be three coaches rankings:
Thursday, February 11 (need 2 matches to be eligible)
Thursday, February 25 (3 matches)
Wednesday, March 10 (4 matches)

I know there was some debate about the minimum 4 matches and pre-allocations earlier. One thing left open for debate even in this document is that it doesn't say if conference tournament matches count towards your total to earn a pre-allocation spot or if you need to have 4 matches coming into the conference tournament. For example, if Kerkvliet enters the tournament and goes 3-1 for his only matches would he still get a spot if he entered at 0-0? However they end up counting matches, somebody who doesn't have 4 matches is not going to go the NCAA Tournament based off a a conference finish lower than first.

From the document: "A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot. If the second place finisher in a weight class does not have 4 matches, but the third place finisher does have 4 matches, the third place finisher can be awarded the pre-allocated spot, as the second place finisher is not eligible. The pre-allocated spots belong to the respective conferences to award."

Since they are still doing a coach's ranking after the conference tournaments, I would think at the minimum if Kerkvliet enters the Big 10 Tournament with 0 matches and goes 3-1 or whatever combination of at least four and doesn't win he should still be eligible for an at-large if he meets two of the standards on page 6. Ideally, his four matches (if he would get that many) count that day towards his total and he could get a spot for 2nd place or whatever. Or just win it and let Parris worry about that depending on the rest of Michigan's schedule. Steveson already has 6 matches.

It also says the allocations will be on historical data from the past five years "earned allocations at each weight class in each conference."

That table is below with the actual pre-allocation averages by the last five years.
125
133
141
149
157
165
174
184
197
285
Total
ACC
2.8​
3.8​
3.4​
3.0​
4.0​
3.4​
3.4​
3.2​
3.0​
4.2​
34.2​
Big 12
5.2​
5.2​
4.2​
4.8​
3.0​
4.6​
4.4​
3.8​
5.2​
4.6​
45.0​
Big 10
8.2​
8.0​
8.2​
7.4​
7.8​
8.0​
8.4​
8.4​
6.0​
6.6​
77.0​
EIWA
3.4​
3.2​
4.6​
4.2​
5.0​
4.8​
5.4​
6.2​
5.2​
4.4​
46.4​
MAC
5.0​
6.0​
5.2​
5.0​
5.4​
4.0​
3.8​
3.8​
4.6​
4.6​
47.4​
PAC 12
2.4​
1.4​
2.0​
2.0​
2.0​
1.8​
1.6​
1.2​
2.6​
2.4​
19.4​
SoCon
1.2​
1.0​
1.0​
1.6​
1.4​
1.0​
1.4​
1.8​
1.4​
2.0​
13.8​
Total
28.2​
28.6​
28.6​
28.0​
28.6​
27.6​
28.4​
28.4​
28.0​
28.8​
283.2​
Taking out teams that are not competing in each conference (example EIWA counts 10/17 bids; MAC 13/14) and then re-averaging to get 29 total pre-allocations per weight I came up with the following estimates.

125
133
141
149
157
165
174
184
197
285
Total
ACC
3​
4​
4​
4​
4​
4​
4​
4​
3​
4​
38​
Big 12
6​
6​
5​
5​
3​
6​
5​
4​
6​
5​
51​
Big 10
9​
8​
9​
8​
9​
9​
9​
10​
7​
7​
85​
EIWA
2​
2​
3​
3​
3​
3​
3​
4​
3​
3​
29​
MAC
5​
6​
5​
5​
6​
4​
4​
4​
5​
5​
49​
PAC 12
3​
2​
2​
2​
2​
2​
2​
1​
3​
3​
22​
SoCon
1​
1​
1​
2​
2​
1​
2​
2​
2​
2​
16​
Total
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
29​
290​

Really happy that you are nerdy with numbers and not just some regular fan.

Thanks for the post!
 
why do they use such ambiguous language? the way it's worded, it seems like the conference gets to award the allocations however they please.

I did kind of think that same thing reading this the first time. But there has to be some kind of structure rolled out because what if every conference wanted to give a ton of bids to 125 for example? Something must be in place so that they award no more than 29 pre-allocation bids per weight across all conferences to leave 4 open for the AQs as they state.

In the one doc, they still list confirming participation for the bids. The bids aren't awarded to an individual the way I read. Obviously not if they are really deciding them next week. So if the Big 10 gets 8 at a particular weight are they just going to make sure that at least 8 wrestlers have 4 bouts, pull one back if one of the top 8 seeds doesn't have 4 bouts, or pull one back if a top 8 seed drops out. These are all just guesses of what they could do based on how I read the ambiguous language.
 
The way that reads is if you don't have your 4 matches you've to win the conference to go to the NCAA tournament.70 AQ spots go to all conference winners.In order to receive a pre allocated spot or a at large you've to have your 4 matches
 
I know there was some debate about the minimum 4 matches and pre-allocations earlier. One thing left open for debate even in this document is that it doesn't say if conference tournament matches count towards your total to earn a pre-allocation spot or if you need to have 4 matches coming into the conference tournament. For example, if Kerkvliet enters the tournament and goes 3-1 for his only matches would he still get a spot if he entered at 0-0? However they end up counting matches, somebody who doesn't have 4 matches is not going to go the NCAA Tournament based off a a conference finish lower than first.

We actually have our answer for this from the pre-championships manual. From page 14:

Only wrestlers that meet or exceed two of the above criteria with at least four matches at the respective weight class will be eligible for selection as at-large qualifiers
 
The way that reads is if you don't have your 4 matches you've to win the conference to go to the NCAA tournament.70 AQ spots go to all conference winners.In order to receive a pre allocated spot or a at large you've to have your 4 matches

We actually have our answer for this from the pre-championships manual. From page 14:

Only wrestlers that meet or exceed two of the above criteria with at least four matches at the respective weight class will be eligible for selection as at-large qualifiers

Hopefully my hypothetical better explains what I am asking in regards to these two. This is what I don't know the answer to.

Kerkvliet (or any wrestler) enters the Big 10 Tournament at 0-0 (or any combination of less than four matches). He goes 3-1 and finishes second place. Does the four matches he wrestled in the conference tournament count for his minimum right away making him eligible for a pre-allocated spot (2nd place - # of allocations) or would he have to have four matches prior to the Big 10 Tournament to be eligible for a pre-allocated spot?

Either way, if he gets four matches at the Big 10 Tournament it appears there will be a coaches ranking after all the conference tournaments and before at-large bids are selected so he should meet the minimum for that although I am not sure how they would view a resume like that. He would just need two of the criteria in the manual to officially be eligible for at-large.
 
The way I'm reading it if you have 3 or fewer matches going into Big Tens you have to win, and that the matches wrestled at the conference tournament don't count towards getting into NCAAs.
 
I would hope this would never happen and I don't think it would but there is a devious way to screw Kerkvliet (with 0 matches) if they want. The Big 10 coaches could all just vote him #1 seed. He would get a bye and then he would either need to run the gauntlet and beat either Parris or Steveson in the finals as I would think they would be #2 & #3 seeds in this scenario. In this scenario his finals match is his third match so it is win or season over. It would be either that, or lose in the top half and rack up his match total in the consolations.

This scenario assumes Kerkvliet is in the top 3 tier and there is clear separation from the rest of the pack as he would hit Cassioppi in the semifinals assuming no upsets.
 
Hopefully my hypothetical better explains what I am asking in regards to these two. This is what I don't know the answer to.

Kerkvliet (or any wrestler) enters the Big 10 Tournament at 0-0 (or any combination of less than four matches). He goes 3-1 and finishes second place. Does the four matches he wrestled in the conference tournament count for his minimum right away making him eligible for a pre-allocated spot (2nd place - # of allocations) or would he have to have four matches prior to the Big 10 Tournament to be eligible for a pre-allocated spot?

Either way, if he gets four matches at the Big 10 Tournament it appears there will be a coaches ranking after all the conference tournaments and before at-large bids are selected so he should meet the minimum for that although I am not sure how they would view a resume like that. He would just need two of the criteria in the manual to officially be eligible for at-large.
You're way overthinking this.

Finishing 2nd at the Big Ten Tournament qualifies any wrestler for the NCAA Tournament.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Sullivan
The way I'm reading it if you have 3 or fewer matches going into Big Tens you have to win, and that the matches wrestled at the conference tournament don't count towards getting into NCAAs.

You could very well be right and I am just talking ideas out loud as the NCAA still left this to some interpretation in the updated document. My guess would be if you enter the conference tournament with less than four matches it is win the or bust. However, the NCAA states they are going to release a final coaches ranking for at-large bid selections based on data through March 7 (last day of Big 10 and Big 12 tournaments) so I would think conference championships count towards that total.

Again, these are just guesses on my part.
 
You're way overthinking this.

Finishing 2nd at the Big Ten Tournament qualifies any wrestler for the NCAA Tournament.

I don't want to sound argumentative but this is straight from the NCAA document that was recently updated.

Wrestler with less than 4 matches would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot for their conference, nor would they be considered for at-large selections. A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot. If the second place finisher in a weight class does not have 4 matches, but the third place finisher does have 4 matches, the third place finisher can be awarded the pre-allocated spot, as the second place finisher is not eligible. The pre-allocated spots belong to the respective conferences to award.
 
I don't want to sound argumentative but this is straight from the NCAA document that was recently updated.

Wrestler with less than 4 matches would not be eligible for a pre-allocated spot for their conference, nor would they be considered for at-large selections. A wrestler who wins the conference championship with less than 4 matches may retain that AQ spot. If the second place finisher in a weight class does not have 4 matches, but the third place finisher does have 4 matches, the third place finisher can be awarded the pre-allocated spot, as the second place finisher is not eligible. The pre-allocated spots belong to the respective conferences to award.
That may be true, but would the Big Ten Conference really apply that to its 2nd place finisher? Where B10 gets on average 8 slots per weight, essentially that would disqualify the 2nd place finisher in favor of the 9th place finisher.

Even doing that to a 7th/8th place finisher would put the conference in a really bad position -- it means they'd have to do it to all such placers or none at all, or else have to explain to some very angry coaches why their guys were selectively disqualified.

To the extent it makes any sense, it applies better to a smaller conference that only gets 2 or 3 qualifiers and has a history of not getting at larges awarded.
 
That may be true, but would the Big Ten Conference really apply that to its 2nd place finisher? Where B10 gets on average 8 slots per weight, essentially that would disqualify the 2nd place finisher in favor of the 9th place finisher.

I agree the old way was better just going off of placement. This year seems like the worst ever to put this minimum in for the first time I can remember. However, it doesn't sound to me like the conference has a choice. I am confused by the wording of the pre-allocations belong to the conference but it seems pretty clear to me at least that anybody with less than four matches cannot receive a pre-allocated spot.
 
I can't imagine trying to seed the National tournament this year. Just not much info to go on.
 
  • Like
Reactions: regularfan
I don't know if there would be huge interest in this or not. If there is, Willie should have either Matt Azevedo or Kyle Ruschell on his show for an interview to ask them all these questions. Both of those guys are on the national committee and should know the rules.
 
Could you send a wrestler to the mat for 1 second ff for 4 matches? Just curious.

If you mean like in extra matches I would think yes but you would have to get opposing coaches to play ball with you and in a conference only season coaches would in essence be potentially taking a spot from their own guys.
 
What I mean is.. why not if you are going to FF 125 every match just send Howard out ..then FF? Would that count as a match? I'm just wondering.
 
  • Like
Reactions: regularfan
A few more canceled duals and let's hope some sanity enters the equation.

A simple retain the 4 match min requiement excepting the top two finishers in the top 4 conferences get automatic bids. Done.

Of course the risk is Kerk being on the same side of the bracket as Gable. If he lost... Top 3 finishers? :-/
 
  • Like
Reactions: Waxman1607
What I mean is.. why not if you are going to FF 125 every match just send Howard out ..then FF? Would that count as a match? I'm just wondering.

Interesting. I wasn't thinking of it that way. You could but would the kid really want to do that and just concede four losses? It also wouldn't help his at-large resume should it come to that but I like the idea if he is supremely confident he would place in a pre-allocated spot and doesn't care about his record.
 
A simple retain the 4 match min requiement excepting the top two finishers in the top 4 conferences get automatic bids. Done.

I would argue they need less rules. It is all the new requirements they are adding in this year that are causing the problem. Although I do like that a person is eligible for at-large if they miss the conference tournament with COVID issues. I do worry people will abuse that though.
 
A few more canceled duals and let's hope some sanity enters the equation.

A simple retain the 4 match min requiement excepting the top two finishers in the top 4 conferences get automatic bids. Done.

Of course the risk is Kerk being on the same side of the bracket as Gable. If he lost... Top 3 finishers? :-/
Even simpler and saner: every wrestler who places high enough qualifies for the NCAA Tournament regardless of # of matches.
 
I would hope this would never happen and I don't think it would but there is a devious way to screw Kerkvliet (with 0 matches) if they want. The Big 10 coaches could all just vote him #1 seed. He would get a bye and then he would either need to run the gauntlet and beat either Parris or Steveson in the finals as I would think they would be #2 & #3 seeds in this scenario. In this scenario his finals match is his third match so it is win or season over. It would be either that, or lose in the top half and rack up his match total in the consolations.

This scenario assumes Kerkvliet is in the top 3 tier and there is clear separation from the rest of the pack as he would hit Cassioppi in the semifinals assuming no upsets.

i think putting him #1 would be better for him than leaving him unseeded. if he's #1 then he only has to wrestle one of parris or steveson whereas if he's unseeded and parris and steveson are 1/2 then he would need to beat BOTH of them, one in the semis (or earlier) and the other in the finals.

assuming conference tourney matches count for the 4 match minimum, the worst case scenario would be kerk seeded #2 since he would get the bye and then either parris or steveson in the semis, with only 3 matches max if he wins in the semis. i think the strategy for that would be to injury default 1 second in to the semis match, then he would drop down into the consi semis to get that match plus the 3/4 or 5/6 placement match for 4 matches total.
 
Matches at conferences count towards the 4.You want 4 just in case you miss conferences with a covid related issue so you can get a bid to NCAA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Lumpy Johnson
Matches at conferences count towards the 4.You want 4 just in case you miss conferences with a covid related issue so you can get a bid to NCAA.

Am I correct to assume you mean those results immediately count towards four matches? So if somebody entered the Big 10 tournament with no matches and went 2-2 to place in an allocated spot they would be good? (or whatever combination gets you to four on conference weekend)

If that is the case, with the exception of first round bye getting to the finals and losing I can't find a path where somebody places who places eighth or higher doesn't get four matches that weekend (assuming at least 12 in the bracket). Smaller tournaments like the ACC/PAC 12 might have an issue but I am not sure who might be effected that same way as some of the guys we are discussing.
 
Am I correct to assume you mean those results immediately count towards four matches? So if somebody entered the Big 10 tournament with no matches and went 2-2 to place in an allocated spot they would be good? (or whatever combination gets you to four on conference weekend)

If that is the case, with the exception of first round bye getting to the finals and losing I can't find a path where somebody places who places eighth or higher doesn't get four matches that weekend (assuming at least 12 in the bracket). Smaller tournaments like the ACC/PAC 12 might have an issue but I am not sure who might be effected that same way as some of the guys we are discussing.
Correct if you've 0 matches going in and get 4 matches you can earn a spot at Ncaa.At ACC if a guy had 0 matches he could get 2nd and go 2-1 and not go to NCAA.
 
  • Like
Reactions: regularfan
ADVERTISEMENT
ADVERTISEMENT