NCAA Wrestling Free Agency: It's here.

[Notsofastmyfriend21]

I noticed other guys on here who probably feel the way I do about this: I don't like it. Beginning with TaTo last year who simply brought in his dream team, and now with every other program joining in...I just don't care for it. Anyone can simply transfer and go to another school and wrestle immediately now with no 1 year wait. Everyone is now getting 6 years instead of five. What we are beginning to see is Major League Baseball free agency and I don't like it gentlemen.

Joey McKenna with a couple great seasons for the White Sox(Stanford) comes in for the Red Sox(Ohio State). This year Perry's team folds and he joins the Yankees(Iowa) along with DeSanto who had some problems with the Pirates(Drexel) and now he also joins the Yanks.

The GM's(TaTo, Brands, etc...) simply construct their dream teams, and PRESTO, the new prototype designed to beat PSU is invented. The reason I don't include Cael here, is that frankly, the kid at 125 last year was never going to score a point at Nationals even if he got there, and Keener was always just what he was, which was a great kid and a good solid wrestler but not a hired free agent designed to form a dream team.

I've taken liberties here with my metaphors and comparisons and exaggerations, but you get the overall point. NOT a criticism of Brands, or TaTo, or anyone, just a thought about where we are heading.

 

[bwfight]

Not so fast my friend. The Penn State transfers last year at 125 and 133 were no different than McKenna and others. Just because they didn’t achieve the same degree of success doesn’t make the underlying principle any different. And as long as the rules permit it, any coach, including Cael, would be foolish not to take advantage of such opportunities when they make sense for the team.

 

[El-Jefe]

Not so fast my friend. The Penn State transfers last year at 125 and 133 were no different than McKenna and others. Just because they didn’t achieve the same degree of success doesn’t make the underlying principle any different. And as long as the rules permit it, any coach, including Cael, would be foolish not to take advantage of such opportunities when they make sense for the team.

The PSU transfers at 125 and 133 were different than McKenna. Both were grad transfers -- they had already completed their undergrad degrees. If we care about the individuals, then they should be free to pursue graduate degrees elsewhere if they so choose.

Also, Boise canceled their program, so Kuhn either transferred or ended his career.

Regarding the rest, "free agency" is hyperbolic. Except for grad transfers and program cancellations, they all must receive a written release from their original school or else sit a year.

 

[Notsofastmyfriend21]

The PSU transfers at 125 and 133 were different than McKenna. Both were grad transfers -- they had already completed their undergrad degrees. If we care about the individuals, then they should be free to pursue graduate degrees elsewhere if they so choose.

Also, Boise canceled their program, so Kuhn either transferred or ended his career.

Regarding the rest, "free agency" is hyperbolic. Except for grad transfers and program cancellations, they all must receive a written release from their original school or else sit a year.

Seems to me that they are all receiving that written release, although I can't be sure. Wasn't my intent to be hyperbolic, I just don't care for the direction it's heading.

 

[El-Jefe]

Seems to me that they are all receiving that written release, although I can't be sure. Wasn't my intent to be hyperbolic, I just don't care for the direction it's heading.

Probably most are, and that's understandable -- if I don't want to stick around, you probably don't want to force me to, and don't want to get tangled up in any controversy.

Hard to tell how many that really is -- if you deny my release, I'm probably not going public with it unless I don't mind sitting a year.

Either way, I'm not sure this is so bad. It can only happen so much, because even the top schools are capped at 9.9 rides, have school imposed roster size limits, and will want to minimize their own defections. And constant roster turnover cause culture instability.

Up and coming programs can benefit from transfers. Where would Lock Haven be without Marsteller and Haines?

And as harsh as this sounds, some programs are stagnating, and losing a couple guys might force them to wake up and improve.

 

[cidhawkeye]

There may need to be some reflection on transfers. There will be semantics thrown out but once you sign an LOI and go elsewhere it is a transfer.

 

[Chickenman Testa]

We’ll be fine and think Jefe hit it on the head. Cael is generally sticking to his plan (and following Dice’s chart ) while others try every gambit to match him

 

[LorenzoFan]

It is not a transfer. It still needs a release but it does not constitute a transfer as it does not count as a transfer as the athlete did not matriculate. And it only needs a release if the new school is part of the NLOI program

 

[Ian]

So the Big Boys will start recruiting mid major talent after yr 1 or 2.. a vicious cycle. I have no problem with grad transfers but others need to sit out a year like in other sports....

 

[cidhawkeye]

It is not a transfer. It still needs a release but it does not constitute a transfer as it does not count as a transfer as the athlete did not matriculate. And it only needs a release if the new school is part of the NLOI program

Semantics 101 to support a point of view. You signed and committed to a school. You backed out. That is what your signature is worth. I don't blame but it is what it is. Damn Japan fans by me lol

 

[Dogwelder]

If coaches fear grad transfers out of their programs, then maybe they’ll try to dissuade their wrestlers from taking an early redshirt year, which is a year in which kids get units toward graduation without contributing wins for the team.

 

[El-Jefe]

If coaches fear grad transfers out of their programs, then maybe they’ll try to dissuade their wrestlers from taking an early redshirt year, which is a year in which kids get units toward graduation without contributing wins for the team.

That would only help the outgoing coaches for grad transfers.

Not shirting gives leverage to the undergrad transfers. If Stanford had not released McKenna, he could've tanshirted this year and not lost any eligibility.

 

[cidhawkeye]

International experts, I saw 2 for Maple.

 

[Dogwelder]

That would only help the outgoing coaches for grad transfers.

Not shirting gives leverage to the undergrad transfers. If Stanford had not released McKenna, he could've tanshirted this year and not lost any eligibility.

Good point! I did not think of that. That’s why you’re Jefe!

 

[pointingdogsrule]

My first impression has been "hired guns". I personally don't like it.

 

[Notsofastmyfriend21]

My first impression has been "hired guns". I personally don't like it.

Neither do I. I see it as mercenary and as free agency. I realize that isn't what it is, but it seems to have the same kind of effect on me. "Hey, we have a hole at 149? No problem, we know that one of 8 All Americans might be looking to transfer in for a shot at the team title". Not pointing fingers at anyone, just saying that's how I see the dynamic.

 

[Ian]

I wonder what Vodka thinks of the Hawks going all in for DeSanto....

 

[Art]

Don't know what prompted this discussion, but:

a. all athletes require a release from their original school in order to transfer and receive financial aid. They can transfer without a release, but cannot play or receive financial aid in their first year at the school to which they've transferred (see Joe Flacco).

b, wrestlers have been able to take advantage of the one-time transfer exception since, at the latest, 2011 (could be earlier than that, but I'm not going to chase documentation). What that means is that, with the proper release, they can compete without sitting out a year. This exception is also available for participants in most other sports (exceptions, to the best of my recollection, are baseball, basketball, FBS football, and ice hockey).

c. the NLOI is a different animal, not even governed by the NCAA, so that's another matter.

Now maybe there is more transfer activity going on recently, but the rules haven't changed.

 

[psualt]

Generally speaking I don’t like it either. As a fan though you get excited because it gives your team an opportunity to fill a position of need not unlike the deals that happen in baseball at the end of the year. I don’t care if DeSanto ends up in Iowa as the season is very long and, as we saw at NCAAs, as the level of competition increased there were some major question marks raised with his actions. If any of that occurs going forward I want him on another team.

 

[GogglesPaizano]

I don't like it in in collegiate level sports at all. All of these minor programs may find themselves getting picked clean after a recruit becomes a national surprise.

The pendulum swings however, and I suspect I know what might make it swing back toward sanity.

If super liberal rules were in place when Cael decided to redshirt the studs a few years back tOSU finally won a title and PSU lost one. I presume the next time Cael sees the cupboards a little bare and he has 2-3 kids knocking at his door, if he opens, we win another title in an off year.

Instead of 7 titles in eight years how would HR, and Tan Tom deal with 8 out of the last 8? If you are a stud kid looking for a transfer and the Lions need help at your weight class where do you think the best kids will go?

If this is the new normal, Cael will get his pick of the litter and it will piss off the rest of the country. I hope this doesn't become the new normal, and I admire when both kids and schools honor their commitments. In the end PSU will not be harmed by this, only the smaller schools. Thats unfortunate for all, and the sport in general.

 

[WildTurk]

I guess I missed the part where Perry and DeSanto committed to Iowa. I need to pay better attention

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

I noticed other guys on here who probably feel the way I do about this: I don't like it. Beginning with TaTo last year who simply brought in his dream team, and now with every other program joining in...I just don't care for it. Anyone can simply transfer and go to another school and wrestle immediately now with no 1 year wait. Everyone is now getting 6 years instead of five. What we are beginning to see is Major League Baseball free agency and I don't like it gentlemen.

Joey McKenna with a couple great seasons for the White Sox(Stanford) comes in for the Red Sox(Ohio State). This year Perry's team folds and he joins the Yankees(Iowa) along with DeSanto who had some problems with the Pirates(Drexel) and now he also joins the Yanks.

The GM's(TaTo, Brands, etc...) simply construct their dream teams, and PRESTO, the new prototype designed to beat PSU is invented. The reason I don't include Cael here, is that frankly, the kid at 125 last year was never going to score a point at Nationals even if he got there, and Keener was always just what he was, which was a great kid and a good solid wrestler but not a hired free agent designed to form a dream team.

I've taken liberties here with my metaphors and comparisons and exaggerations, but you get the overall point. NOT a criticism of Brands, or TaTo, or anyone, just a thought about where we are heading.

Translated: tranfers are good or bad depending on their skill level... or where they transfer to.

 

[PapaBearSLIM]

So the Big Boys will start recruiting mid major talent after yr 1 or 2.. a vicious cycle. I have no problem with grad transfers but others need to sit out a year like in other sports....

Not the case in other sports anymore.

 

[nitlion6]

I suppose a different way of looking at things is asking what do I believe is best for the student-athletes.

Let them transfer if that is what they want.

I imagine a team striving to become a program may find it harder to achieve if they keep running in short timers over the standard bearers.

 

[86PSUPaul]

I guess I missed the part where Perry and DeSanto committed to Iowa. I need to pay better attention

I missed that part too, they are in Iowa, but so is Dave Taylor, does he have any eligibility left?

Translated: tranfers are good or bad depending on their skill level... or where they transfer to.

And that poster (not you PapaBear) should not lump AD and SP together. Perry is not leaving his program, his program left him. We don’t know AD’s reasons for leaving.

 

[RoarLions1]

It'll never be a free-for-all. There's still rules, and given the lack of transparency, not sure what's changed. The language in the rulebook certainly hasn't, though maybe application in a few instances.

If anything has changed, it wouldn't just affect wrestling. I'm not hearing rumblings or seeing articles about any significant change in other sports, so maybe this is just a phase. Guess I'll wait to see how this all. 6th years and transfers appear to be increasing, not sure it's significantly different or not just yet.

 

[BFosr1]

I don’t understand the arguments on whether Penn State actual transfers last season were different than McKenna’s and the soon to be Desanto’s when it’s common knowledge Penn State heavily recruited McKenna and wanted him, and Cael was the first person to contact DeSanto. Just because you haven’t landed the big one yet, and I stress yet, doesn’t make you the good guys. I agree with the dislike of the process but let’s not pretend Penn State is taking some sort of high road here. It’s hard to bring in a top free agent when there’s no $ available and your lineup is mostly set, especially with future recruits in the wings.

 

[Just another PSU Fan]

Seems to me, PSU is the JUCO for many kids! Come in, get some quality college credits and get some quality room time --- then go elsewhere

having a team consisting of 1 year eligible post grad transfers doesn't seem optimal?

 

[amattaro]

I have it on good authority that PSUPaul would rather have a Bo Nickal bobblehead than Austin DeSanto at 133.

 

[ZepGraffiti]

I don’t understand the arguments on whether Penn State actual transfers last season were different than McKenna’s and the soon to be Desanto’s when it’s common knowledge Penn State heavily recruited McKenna and wanted him, and Cael was the first person to contact DeSanto. Just because you haven’t landed the big one yet, and I stress yet, doesn’t make you the good guys. I agree with the dislike of the process but let’s not pretend Penn State is taking some sort of high road here. It’s hard to bring in a top free agent when there’s no $ available and your lineup is mostly set, especially with future recruits in the wings.

I guess I'm having an issue with the "common knowledge/heavily recruited" statements some imply as a given whenever PSU talks to anyone.

Of course they're going to talk if one side or the other wants to inquire about possibilities. That doesn't automatically mean they're 'going hard' at a guy.

Is it possible the convo is: 'we'd love to have you, but got no $$ [or plan] for you this year. Feel free to walk-on & see what happens......etc, etc'. Maybe give some solid advice.....but far from a FULL COURT PRESS.

Then again, maybe you [or others] know exactly what was said between the parties? If so, please share.
Or, maybe my definition of Heavily Recruited is different?

BTW: To the topic, I have no problem at all with transfers.

 

[El-Jefe]

I don’t understand the arguments on whether Penn State actual transfers last season were different than McKenna’s and the soon to be Desanto’s when it’s common knowledge Penn State heavily recruited McKenna and wanted him, and Cael was the first person to contact DeSanto. Just because you haven’t landed the big one yet, and I stress yet, doesn’t make you the good guys. I agree with the dislike of the process but let’s not pretend Penn State is taking some sort of high road here. It’s hard to bring in a top free agent when there’s no $ available and your lineup is mostly set, especially with future recruits in the wings.

Was Cael the first to contact DeSanto, or was Cael the first contacted by DeSanto?

And you seriously don't understand one major difference with Kuhn being that his undergrad team no longer exists?

 

[ClarkstonMark]

Was Cael the first to contact DeSanto, or was Cael the first contacted by DeSanto?

And you seriously don't understand one major difference with Kuhn being that his undergrad team no longer exists?

Re: Kuhn, from his side it is different.
From PSU’s side, it is no different (PSU took a transfer).

 

[Brian LB-U]

I noticed other guys on here who probably feel the way I do about this: I don't like it. Beginning with TaTo last year who simply brought in his dream team, and now with every other program joining in...I just don't care for it. Anyone can simply transfer and go to another school and wrestle immediately now with no 1 year wait. Everyone is now getting 6 years instead of five. What we are beginning to see is Major League Baseball free agency and I don't like it gentlemen.

Joey McKenna with a couple great seasons for the White Sox(Stanford) comes in for the Red Sox(Ohio State). This year Perry's team folds and he joins the Yankees(Iowa) along with DeSanto who had some problems with the Pirates(Drexel) and now he also joins the Yanks.

The GM's(TaTo, Brands, etc...) simply construct their dream teams, and PRESTO, the new prototype designed to beat PSU is invented. The reason I don't include Cael here, is that frankly, the kid at 125 last year was never going to score a point at Nationals even if he got there, and Keener was always just what he was, which was a great kid and a good solid wrestler but not a hired free agent designed to form a dream team.

I've taken liberties here with my metaphors and comparisons and exaggerations, but you get the overall point. NOT a criticism of Brands, or TaTo, or anyone, just a thought about where we are heading.

Worth noting McKenna reportedly picked tOSU over Penn State and Lehigh. Iowa recruited him too but didn't crack the top 3

 

[BFosr1]

This.

 

[86PSUPaul]

I have it on good authority that PSUPaul would rather have a Bo Nickal bobblehead than Austin DeSanto at 133.

LOL, first chuckle of the day. But YES I WOULD! No disrespect to AD (or is it ADS?) but I really need a Bo Bobblehead! We have other 133 lb'ers...

 

[BFosr1]

Plus Corey Keener and Cortez are two others. I think it’s silly arguing the specifics of their transfers when Penn State was completely on board taking in McKenna. But because he didn’t pick Penn State, there’s a high road being presented which is pretty hypocritical.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

I guess I'm having an issue with the "common knowledge/heavily recruited" statements some imply as a given whenever PSU talks to anyone.

Of course they're going to talk if one side or the other wants to inquire about possibilities. That doesn't automatically mean they're 'going hard' at a guy.

Is it possible the convo is: 'we'd love to have you, but got no $$ [or plan] for you this year. Feel free to walk-on & see what happens......etc, etc'. Maybe give some solid advice.....but far from a FULL COURT PRESS.

Then again, maybe you [or others] know exactly what was said between the parties? If so, please share.
Or, maybe my definition of Heavily Recruited is different?

BTW: To the topic, I have no problem at all with transfers.

Cael did go after McKenna when he got his release from Stanford but didn’t make a hard push for him until the Suriano news came out. McKenna also put it out there him going to PSU was a possibility before he chose Ohio State

 

[bscaff1]

Last season's top 10 schools, with transfers as starters (from memory; please point out mistakes):

Penn State: 2 (Carson Kuhn, Corey Keener)
Ohio State: 2 (Joey McKenna, TeShan Campbell)
Iowa: 0 (PD3 didn't clear, Pat Lugo redshirted)
Michigan: 1 (Kevin Beazley)
NC State: 0
Missouri: 2 (Grant Leeth, Heavyweight from WVU)
Cornell: 1 (Fredy Stroker)
Virginia Tech: 1 (Ryan Blees)
Nebraska: 0
Arizona State: 2 (Ryan Millhof, Jason Tsirtsis)

Anecdotally, it does "seem" as though the rate of transfers is increasing.

In general, I don't like the transfer stuff. It makes it more difficult for the kid to earn his degree. But looking at that list of names, there can be some pretty good reasons for transferring, too.

Bigger picture, I'd expect the existing rules restricting transfers to lessen, as the NCAA tries unsuccessfully to defend itself in courts of law re: its "amateurism" rules.

 

[csiebott]

I don't post a lot. But . . . They're kids. At best, young adults. Let them do what's best for them, the programs will deal. It's a sport. That's it. A sport. For students. We're just fans. We take ourselves a little too seriously sometimes. imho.

 

[NYWRESTLER94]

The way the transfers are kind of starting to trend with some good guys going to bigger name schools I do wonder if wrestling could trend in the direction that football or basketball are in in this regard. We’ve already had a similar debate with recruiting a year ago.