Going off of memory but from what I recall N. Lee has not won many tournaments where there was good competition. Following him through several tournaments where I expected him to win when he faced a similar skill leveled competitor I seem to remember him not coming out on top. There are obvious exceptions but I have some concerns until I see him consistently winning these tournaments.
Nick Lee
- Thread starter PSUisawesome
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I thought it was Tim Johnston who calls him Rutherford...?
Being that he's from where I live and I know his cousin well, it's kind of entertaining to watch everyone in the OSU/Iowa thread misspell SorensEn's name.
You're missing an N before that o, Bud.
Or 141 next year then a RS following Sophomore season and before move up to 49. This allows Gavin and RBY at 25/33 next year, then they could both move up the following year.
The best tourney he has ever had I feel was Fargo 2016
https://www.flowrestling.org/articles/5053545-flowrestler-of-the-week-nick-lee-in
Verkleeren will prove more than a capable 149
You're missing an N before that o, Bud.
Bonus rates (this year):
Sorenson 67%
Heil 47%
Tsirtsis 18%
Just a comparison of wrestlers who seem to catch the most abuse for lack of offense. I know it's fun to tweak Iowa but "Snorenson" is a misrepresentation.
Stats can be misleading without digging a little deeper. Sorensen may have a 67% bonus rate this season, but look at the guys he's wrestled. None of those bonus victories are against Top 10 guys, and only two (Deluca, Lewallen) are against guys in the Top 20. Almost all of the others are guys I've never heard of.
I'll add that my quip wasn't actually an attempt to tweak Iowa. I am genuinely disappointed as a wrestling fan in the style that Sorensen has adopted against tougher competition over the years. I went on this rant last year, so I'll try not to be long-winded, but it really comes down to this: Sorensen has the size and the talent to really get after it against anyone at 149, except maybe Zain. Even then, I believe he would be better served to let the fur fly against Zain than by trying to slow down the match and steal it with one well-timed takedown.
I really liked Sorensen when I saw him as a freshman, despite that he was a Hawk. I suppose I have taken it a little personally as a fan that he has become so conservative once there is an uptick in the challenge posed by an opponent, but still . . . I think he is good enough to not need to resort to that style. Maybe I'm wrong about that, but I believe he can do a lot more than what he is doing. I want to see it as a fan.
I see Nick Lee's current or emerging style as lying somewhere potentially between DT and Nolf. He's not yet at either of their levels, but he is high scoring, driven toward bonus points, good at scrambling, relentless in pace, fearless and creative, as well as willing to experiment. He doesn't yet possess Taylor's level of technique or Nolf's unremitting ferocity and physical dominance, but he could grow and improve in those directions and, with some additional muscle and time in the room, really start to excel. And, it should be noted, he is being thrown out there in duals as a true freshman, something which DT and Nolf didn't experience. [Nolf only lost one match in his redshirt year to James Green (7-4) while DT lost twice in close matches, I think, to Cyler Sanderson (9-7) and Bubba Jenkins]
Nick's recent opponents also have some concerns, but I suspect for different reasons
My comments are directed to those that think he is that special talent on par with Retherford, Golf and Taylor. The results if you look at them do not show that. Not that he can't get there but going from results I would say he is high scoring and technically sound but can't be compared to those guys yet. After Nolf's senior year from what I recall he destroyed everyone in his path then during his redshirt year had a close loss to Green. Lee has not won a significant tournament recently and lost to some good but not great wrestlers.
Would you favor Lee against Heil, Gfeller, Yianni, or Meredith right now? There in lies the difference in that Nolf and Zain were right there behind the best (Green/Steiber) where Lee is close just not there yet. Give him time and he may get there but just feel he is a step behind. That in no way is a knock on him because those guys are special talents.
Lee has wrestled with the goal of improving, much more than winning. Nico’s freshman year gives some insight into the possible upside when it’s more about advancing.
It's tough in this age of greatness to let each kid have his own path to achieving his goals. We want/expect the juggernaut to keep on rollin' I suspect it will, but I also want these young men to be able to forge their own path. I'm not saying anyone here is putting too much weight on Nick, as I suspect his own expectations are higher than ours. But clearly he is on a mission, and Imma enjoy watching his journey. The results will come.
Also--I would absolutely put Nick on the same level as Gfellar. He lost that round, but they're both big-move, aggressive styles, and a pin or two in their rivalry is probably inevitable; I suspect it won't be one-sided though. Whether he can compete with the top of the rankings this year is a question I will enjoy seeing answered as this season reaches its conclusion.
Also--I would absolutely put Nick on the same level as Gfellar. He lost that round, but they're both big-move, aggressive styles, and a pin or two in their rivalry is probably inevitable; I suspect it won't be one-sided though. Whether he can compete with the top of the rankings this year is a question I will enjoy seeing answered as this season reaches its conclusion.
Nolf lost 7-4 to Green during his redshirt season, the match was not that close. Green placed third that year at Nationals, losing 3-2 to Imar in the semi's. Nolf did beat Realbuto 7-4 during that season who was the NCAA runner-up. Nolf did have a nice win against Tommy Ganntt from NC State. Other than that, no marquee wins.
If you look at Nick Lee so far this year, he pinned Josh Alber, I would put that win on the level of Nolf beating Realbuto (weak finalist that year). Also has nice wins against Shoop from Loch Haven and Profaci from Michigan. Does have tough losses against Zacherl and Yanni, as do many people. Lee is progressing very well.
Nick’s three losses are...
In his first collegiate match, lost 6-4 to Zacheral, who is currently #6. I’ll take Lee every day in rematches.
A week later, and in his seventh collegiate match, lost 12-7 to Yianni, who is currently ranked #4. I’m not sure Lee is quite there yet.
He then got caught by Gfeller in the scuffle finals.
Nick will be fine. Not sure I’m ready to put him into the elite company of DT, Zain, or Nolf yet... but he’s definitely going to be upper end.
In his first collegiate match, lost 6-4 to Zacheral, who is currently #6. I’ll take Lee every day in rematches.
A week later, and in his seventh collegiate match, lost 12-7 to Yianni, who is currently ranked #4. I’m not sure Lee is quite there yet.
He then got caught by Gfeller in the scuffle finals.
Nick will be fine. Not sure I’m ready to put him into the elite company of DT, Zain, or Nolf yet... but he’s definitely going to be upper end.
Actually you're right but in the wrong direction. That was Realbuto's first action coming off a serious injury and he didn't even place at the Scuffle where Nolf beat him. He was no where near the wrestler he was by NCAAs that season.
I must admit, after reading 6 of the last 8 posts, it's hard to disagree with anything that's been written. Mr. Lee is special, but he wrestled as a true freshman, unlike Ed, David, Jason, or Bo. That's huge!! I'm not one for making comparisons, as each wrestler is their own person, with unique abilities, and with different circumstances. For example, as great as David was, there was that kryptonite from Ithica thing. Will Nick have a similar situation? Heaven knows, though I'm excited for the future and how it plays out.
We are fortunate to get the kind of talent Penn State's had over the past 8 or 9 years. In fact, we've had good to great talent over our history, just not concentrated like it is now...and for that I'm thankful and grateful.
Fact is, the 2 or 3 losses-for-a-career guys are incredibly rare, yet we've had 2 recently in Ed and David, and 3 possible or likely in Zain, Jason, and Bo.
Nick, in fact any of the incoming guys, may not be 2 to 3 career loss guys. That means nothing to me. Continued growth, both as a wrestler and as a human being, is my hopes for all the guys...and let the chips fall where they may.
We are fortunate to get the kind of talent Penn State's had over the past 8 or 9 years. In fact, we've had good to great talent over our history, just not concentrated like it is now...and for that I'm thankful and grateful.
Fact is, the 2 or 3 losses-for-a-career guys are incredibly rare, yet we've had 2 recently in Ed and David, and 3 possible or likely in Zain, Jason, and Bo.
Nick, in fact any of the incoming guys, may not be 2 to 3 career loss guys. That means nothing to me. Continued growth, both as a wrestler and as a human being, is my hopes for all the guys...and let the chips fall where they may.
Agree. Lee has a legitimate chance to be a 4 time All-American while scoring lots of bonus points, which will be an excellent college career.
Big test this Friday versus Tommy Thorn..this will shed some light on where young Mr. Lee is in the process imo...
I agree. So far Nick's results are very comparable to what DT, Nolf, etal did as true frosh. I think the problem some are having is that it is hard for many to do that because of how good all of those guys became. Q finished 6th and Zpain 5th as true frosh and right now Lee is ranked #7 in what many consider the deepest weight class this season. Seems pretty similar to me.
With Roar though for a different reason: 14 months left to enjoy the current Jason Nolf, in no hurry to figure out who the next one is.
Also while style comparisons are fun, hoping that doesn't turn into expectations of matching an NCAA all-time great's career. We're pretty good about that here, and we'll probably be very happy with him becoming the best Nick Lee, but the temptation will always exist.
Also while style comparisons are fun, hoping that doesn't turn into expectations of matching an NCAA all-time great's career. We're pretty good about that here, and we'll probably be very happy with him becoming the best Nick Lee, but the temptation will always exist.
Yianni D had that match in his pocket....really exciting match throughout...tremendous scrambling the entire time. I now know why he said he let that one get away.
Ordinarily, yes, but Thorn is really hit and miss. He either seems to be outstanding or lackluster.
Outstanding vs. McKenna, lackluster vs. Lee is OK by me.
Your last paragraph is exactly my point. Those other guys are unique and special. Although Lee appears very good I do not currently see that his results place him in the special category. Zain and DT are world class and Jason may get there if he trains for freestyle but each had a better resume at this point in their careers than Lee. I am including state tournaments, off-season tournaments, international accolades as well as their true freshman seasons. DT, Nolf, Retherfoed, Spencer Lee, Kyle Snyder and the likes are special and earned their recognition. Give N. Lee time and maybe he will also.
I think you have to add Zahid and Hall into that list as well. They are both generational talents IMHO but totally agree with your assessment on Lee. He has the ceiling to join that club but not there yet. Barring injury, he will only get better technically/stronger and become a consistent hammer for 4 years. Whenever Red (2nd tier guy at this weight in my opinion) came into college he was clearly ahead of Nick and I was worried Lee wouldn't be able to close the gap in his senior "off" year at NLWC but was definitely wrong. I think Lee has passed the second tier guys at this weight and is on the cusp of breaking through to the top 5 this year. The kid is special and I can't wait to see what the future holds.
And, I also enjoyed his "lacklusterness" against Alber in Vegas, although Alber just simply wrestled better than him that day.
As someone that has watched Nick and Joe Lee since around 8th grade, I'll chime in a bit on several points made in this thread.
1. Nick lost to Chad Red ONCE in HS, 6-5 in a thrilling match under the lights in front of 12k fans. The "GAP" between them was miniscule at best.
2. One of Nick's strengths has been avenging prior losses. He learns and adapts. I'm not saying he would beat Yianni this year, but I wouldn't rule it out either. But I have seen him get teched in freestyle by both Carter Happel and Mitchell McKee, both of which he won by TF the next time he saw them.
3. While Nick hasn't won every tournament, he has won his share. He has Fargo Cadet & Junior FS Titles, an IN State Title (only losses in HS were to Red and Micic), won a Pan Am FS Gold, finished 2nd at FILA Cadet Nationals and 2nd at UWW World Team Trials (beat Taylor Lamont, lost to Seth Gross).
4. His development has gone about as I had hoped. Nick's season kind of reminds me of the freshman year of Jason Tsirtsis. Not in style, but Tsirtsis came into the NCAA's as a 5 seed but upset the 4 (defending champ Kendrick Maple) and 1 seed on the way to the finals, then squeaked out a win over OK St. Joshua Kindig to win it all. Not saying Nick will do the same, but I wouldn't rule out him beating anyone in the country on a given day.
1. Nick lost to Chad Red ONCE in HS, 6-5 in a thrilling match under the lights in front of 12k fans. The "GAP" between them was miniscule at best.
2. One of Nick's strengths has been avenging prior losses. He learns and adapts. I'm not saying he would beat Yianni this year, but I wouldn't rule it out either. But I have seen him get teched in freestyle by both Carter Happel and Mitchell McKee, both of which he won by TF the next time he saw them.
3. While Nick hasn't won every tournament, he has won his share. He has Fargo Cadet & Junior FS Titles, an IN State Title (only losses in HS were to Red and Micic), won a Pan Am FS Gold, finished 2nd at FILA Cadet Nationals and 2nd at UWW World Team Trials (beat Taylor Lamont, lost to Seth Gross).
4. His development has gone about as I had hoped. Nick's season kind of reminds me of the freshman year of Jason Tsirtsis. Not in style, but Tsirtsis came into the NCAA's as a 5 seed but upset the 4 (defending champ Kendrick Maple) and 1 seed on the way to the finals, then squeaked out a win over OK St. Joshua Kindig to win it all. Not saying Nick will do the same, but I wouldn't rule out him beating anyone in the country on a given day.
In comparing Joe to Nick, I would do so this way....
- I see Joe as more of a bull in a china shop (but in a good way). He wants to physically dominate and is stronger than Nick. Joe is more of an emotional wrestler which can lead to ups and downs, but he can be flat out dominate. How technically proficient he can become, especially in close matches with high level competition will determine ultimately how far he can go.
- Nick is more of a machine. He's not emotional on the mat and rarely will you see a change in expression no matter how big of a win or a loss. Very business like in his approach. He's very technical and obviously relentless, but more in a technical way than physical. He's still physical, just in a different way than Joe.
I believe both learn from mistakes well. In his freshman year, Joe lost in the regular season to senior Brandon James, who was ranked #1. James won 7-2, I believe and controlled that match for the most part. They met again in the state semi-finals and Joe came turned an exciting match with a reversal and a fall, surprising most everyone, other than the Lee's, of course.
- I see Joe as more of a bull in a china shop (but in a good way). He wants to physically dominate and is stronger than Nick. Joe is more of an emotional wrestler which can lead to ups and downs, but he can be flat out dominate. How technically proficient he can become, especially in close matches with high level competition will determine ultimately how far he can go.
- Nick is more of a machine. He's not emotional on the mat and rarely will you see a change in expression no matter how big of a win or a loss. Very business like in his approach. He's very technical and obviously relentless, but more in a technical way than physical. He's still physical, just in a different way than Joe.
I believe both learn from mistakes well. In his freshman year, Joe lost in the regular season to senior Brandon James, who was ranked #1. James won 7-2, I believe and controlled that match for the most part. They met again in the state semi-finals and Joe came turned an exciting match with a reversal and a fall, surprising most everyone, other than the Lee's, of course.
The GAP I was referring to was the one previously established when he lost to Red, however small it was, and the growing of it once Red was wrestling D1 competition. I don't think anyone knew exactly what level Nick was coming into his true freshman year because we didn't see him wrestle. Thanks for filling us in on all the "facts" though, you would kill at Nick Lee post 8th grade trivia night.
So with you being the all knowing Nick Lee person post 8th grade, who do we contact if we need to know something 7th grade or prior?
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