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Not much discussion about Mega & JG upsets

32-4 last year with nearly a 40% bonus victory rate. Not sure that fits your "he almost always wins ugly".

I know what you intended by "through to the finals of either bracket"...but think about that for a second.

The almost always wins ugly comment was directed at his matches against ranked wrestlers. He just does not have enough offensive firepower in neutral against other top seeds to "control" his own destiny. Last year a good example - lost in both brackets before even quarter-final round via SV - if your best hope is to win via riding-time criteria against the absolute best wrestlers in the field, you aren't going to make many Championship Bracket or Consi Bracket finals.
 
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I'm never going to suggest that Dance is the most aggressive wrestler out there, but he has a weird style that people often mistake for stalling. Dance takes very few leg shots and almost exclusive works with elbow control up top. He made 4-5 legitimate scoring attempts in that match even though he wasn't shooting low singles. Outside of the first period, I didn't think he was stalling at all


Agree(can't believe I agree with someone who has hawk in their handle) I really like his Chris Perry OT ride. Head arm choke to double boots. Only 30 seconds to work and the refs will never call it a stall. Kid wrestled smart.
 
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I am more bullish on this team than before the dual. We went up against a fired up team that bushwhacked Ohio State in similar circumstances last year and won fairly comfortably.

Nico's loss could be equated to Matt's loss to Epperly last year - a few uncharacteristic lapses against a really tough opponent and, voila, you lose a heartbreaker.

Inconsistent Jimmy being inconsistent Jimmy

Our highly touted freshmen had to prove they were worth the accolades- all they did was carry the team along with Zain.

If Shakur solves his energy issue, and at least it didn't start in the first like Andrew Alton and Marsteller, he looks dangerous out there. The quick MFF against LHU probably didn't help him at all - he needed a primer before going into that environment.

We solidified our team standing this weekend. We aren't close to a lock, but I like where we are.
Me too, with the match in the rear view mirror it's not hard to imagine we could have had a shutout going into HWT. We had solid control in all 6 of our wins, while two of our losses came in overtime, the other on a last second call.
 
Not worried about Nico. He had the match won and gave it away by not cutting Dance after he got the RT point. As for Jimmy, he takes bad losses and did so last year. Nothing really matters until tourney time.
 
Is Franklin_restores...bushwood under a different handle? This back and forth has a similar feel to me.

Not that this would be an issue, just like to know what im dealing with here. As much as one can on the intranet.
I think you're on to something. ;)
 
Me too, with the match in the rear view mirror it's not hard to imagine we could have had a shutout going into HWT. We had solid control in all 6 of our wins, while two of our losses came in overtime, the other on a last second call.

Yes.

And this against a very good, more experienced, 6th ranked VaTech team wrestling at home in front of a record (for them) crowd.
 
Not worried about Nico. He had the match won and gave it away by not cutting Dance after he got the RT point. As for Jimmy, he takes bad losses and did so last year. Nothing really matters until tourney time.

A valid point in regards to match strategy vs a guy like Dance as he is probably more dangerous in terms of mat wrestling than in neutral. Mega cuts him and he's not only up 4-2, but forces Dance to be the aggressor in neutral rather than the stalling counter-puncher. If anything, I would assume Dance not used to this and would get out of position for an easy 2 for Mega. Maybe he files that mistake for March and doesn't make it again....
 
The guy who has me pumped the most is Cutch. He finished strong last year and clearly has put in a ton of great work. Looks better, moves better, wrestles better. 165 has me pretty excited too. I really thought his would be a hole in the line-up. Between the two guys fighting it out, by March, we should be in a decent place to score some points.
 
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The almost always wins ugly comment was directed at his matches against ranked wrestlers. He just does not have enough offensive firepower against other top seeds to "control" his own destiny. Last year a good example - lost in both brackets before even quarter-final round via SV - if your best hope is to win via riding-time criteria against the absolute best wrestlers in the field, you aren't going to make many Championship Bracket or Consi Bracket finals.
Jason Tsirtsis might disagree, which is unfortunate for the sport.
 
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Is Franklin_restores...bushwood under a different handle? This back and forth has a similar feel to me.

Not that this would be an issue, just like to know what im dealing with here. As much as one can on the intranet.
I think Franklin making me even look good! Keep it up, you can join me, JohnDoe, and Jammemz after school detention. Dunkj sent your # to my email address. New phone.
 
First, there is no shame in losing to Joey Dance, who is very tough. Mega was in control and in great shape until the last 45 seconds or so, when he gave up the bad reversal. I think lack of competitive matches (i.e., "rust") may have been a minor factor as well. IMO, he made three mistakes that contributed to the loss:
  • Allowing too many lengthy tie-ups in the 1st period
  • Giving up the escape at the end of the 2nd period shortly after the TD
  • Not cutting Dance once he had plenty of RT in the 3rd period
Regarding Gulibon, it was a typical Jimmy loss. He forced a couple good scoring chances but could not convert, and then makes a mistake late to lose. The situation in the 2nd period was a good example. Gulibon had Chisko in some trouble at the edge of the mat. Jimmy couldn't finish without going OB. I kept waiting for Jimmy to drag Chisko back toward the middle where he had more room to finish. Finally, Jimmy gets the same idea and starts dragging Chisko. However, he doesn't go far enough! Just another step or two, and he would have been in good shape. Instead, he stops too soon, tries for the TD, and ultimately runs out of real estate. Just seemed like an obvious mental lapse, which seems to happen far too often with Gulibon.

Overall, I liked how the team looked against VaTech. For starters, every single PSU guy got out right away (like, almost immediately) from bottom. That was good to see. On top, most guys (not all) rode well enough to get RT. Those all big plusses in close matches.
 
Not worried re Nico. Dance is a very strong wrestler and Nico just allowed himself to get in those tie-ups that wasted a lot of time. That's easily correctable.
As for JG, I have concerns. I think he was over ranked at #2. He is simply too inconsistent IMO. This was mentioned earlier but he's got the talent to beat anyone in his class, and he also can lose to anyone on any given night. Not sure what to do re that.

How is he going to correct himself if Dance is healthier next time they meet?

Dance said, “Obviously I wasn’t happy with the way I wrestled, just because I didn’t’ really feel that great, so going into the match of course you always want to win, and that’s what pushed me through.”
 
I'm all in favor of our bonus point mentality, but there are times when settling for a decision is the smarter thing to do.

Nico had a good ride going, one he possibly could have maintained the entire period ... certainly long enough to lock up riding time. He got in trouble when he stepped in front to go for a turn, and presumably bonus points.

That's where the kids need to be a little more calculated and weigh the chance of getting bonus points against the risk of losing. With less than a minute left and only a 2 point lead the risk outweighed the reward IMO.
 
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How is he going to correct himself if Dance is healthier next time they meet?

Dance said, “Obviously I wasn’t happy with the way I wrestled, just because I didn’t’ really feel that great, so going into the match of course you always want to win, and that’s what pushed me through.”

Dance used a primarily defensive strategy and regardless of how he was feeling, while a strong wrestler, his offense is quite limited. It's easily correctable because it's a matter of countering that strategy, not a matter of Nico being less talented. He's not, he's more talented than Dance and simply needs to find a way to wrestle HIS match and not play into Dance's strategy.
 
Dance used a primarily defensive strategy and regardless of how he was feeling, while a strong wrestler, his offense is quite limited. It's easily correctable because it's a matter of countering that strategy, not a matter of Nico being less talented. He's not, he's more talented than Dance and simply needs to find a way to wrestle HIS match and not play into Dance's strategy.
  • Easily correctable
  • Doesn't matter how Dance was feeling because of his defensive style
  • Dance's offense is limited
  • Nico is more talented than Dance
Got it.
 
You know what they say...

Small hands...

small
.
.
.
.
gloves.​
Are you sure about his hands, it was a very cold day!
seinfeld_shrinkage.jpg
 
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The almost always wins ugly comment was directed at his matches against ranked wrestlers. He just does not have enough offensive firepower in neutral against other top seeds to "control" his own destiny. Last year a good example - lost in both brackets before even quarter-final round via SV - if your best hope is to win via riding-time criteria against the absolute best wrestlers in the field, you aren't going to make many Championship Bracket or Consi Bracket finals.
I'm trying to give Dance a whole bunch more credit than you are. Last year Joey beat #1 by 1, #2 by 2, #3 by 2, #6 by 2 and Fall, #10 by 4, #15 by 2, 3, and 6, #25 by 7 and Fall, among others, and not one match was won by a riding time point. Hand-picking 2 matches from the NC, one against the 6-seed, the other against a red-hot Youtsey (and current #6) to make an "almost always" case doesn't give this wrestler his due.
 
I'm trying to give Dance a whole bunch more credit than you are. Last year Joey beat #1 by 1, #2 by 2, #3 by 2, #6 by 2 and Fall, #10 by 4, #15 by 2, 3, and 6, #25 by 7 and Fall, among others, and not one match was won by a riding time point. Hand-picking 2 matches from the NC, one against the 6-seed, the other against a red-hot Youtsey (and current #6) to make an "almost always" case doesn't give this wrestler his due.

I said in my original post that there certainly is no shame in losing to Dance. Said in multiple other posts that he is a real threat to make the championship or consi finals in March. We simply have a difference of opinion regarding Dance's offensive skill set, and BS tactics / "style", from the Neutral Position - Neutral is the most "fundamental" portion of "Folkstyle" wrestling that actually correlates identically to historic rules of "real wrestling" (e.g., International / Olympic Rules Wrestling). Simply absurd that the NCAA allows, and frankly encourages, wrestlers like Dance to blatantly make a mockery of the most fundamental of historic wrestling rules during the all important 1st Period, which btw is not the longest period by "coincidence" (it is the longest because it is the most fundamentally important in regards to its straight line connection to real wrestling on a historic basis - again, International Rules which governed the sport long, long, long before the bastardizations and distortions of "Folkstyle" ever existed that allow, and therefore promote, the intentional violation of "fundamental" and "sacred" rules.). A wrestler is not permitted to STALL (e.g., exclusively play defense and only look to counter while generating ZERO of their offense) to negate their opponents advantage in neutral in a blatant attempt to shorten the match to the mat the "mat periods" (including pulling this bullshat in OT which again, the Neutral Position is the longest for a reason and the reason is not "coincidence" - it is because the ability to generate offense from the Neutral position is the MOST FUNDAMENTAL AND IMPORTANT of "true wrestling" skills especially between two relatively well-matched opponents.

The NCAA's "tie break" rules encourage wrestlers who are good riders, but relatively weak Neutral wrestlers against top technical wrestlers, to STALL and waste away the all-important 1st Period in a blatant attempt to shorten the match (illegal in "real wrestling", Freestyle, and Dance would have been rung up for stalling multiple times and "put on the clock" to shot or else...) in a blatant attempt to have the match come down to vagaries associated with "riding" for the sake of riding even if you aren't attempting to score? In short, the NCAA's tie-break rules, refusal to call CLEAR STALLING in Neutral and their absurd fascination with "riding for the sake of riding even when you aren't trying to score" as a legitimate "wrestling skill / technique" (it absolutely is not!) are both bizzare and destroying the sport via boredom (who wants to watch that bull$hit? It is not what "true wrestling is all about and involves zero "moves" aimed at SCORING!). Again, the NCAA's tie-break rules are absurd - if a match ends in a tie, the wrestlers should be put on their feet for an unlimited SV period including intentional stalling by either wrestler. Prior stall warnings should be wiped clean, but the NCAA should establish the "shot clock" in Neutral (which would include an unlimited SV OT Period)....if a wrestler is not "wrestling" and attempting to generate his own offense despite the other wrestler repeatedly attempting attacks, the offending wrestler should be warned and put on the "shot clock". If they don't attempt their own attack on the clock, they get dinged a point - e.g., this would end the unlimited SV OT Period. It is absurd to let "riding time" advatage determine a match especially when a wrestler is stalling in Neutral to get there! A wrestler should be forced to actually "win" the match via some form of scoring that has resulted from his technical wrestling skill - allowing a wrestler to win using the tactics Dance used on Sunday is not promoting "true wrestling" or "recognized" true wrestling skill.

But yes, we clearly have a difference of opinion regarding Dance's technical wrestling skills in Neutral against TOP TECHNICIANS - his Neutral offense against elite competition sucks, to put it bluntly, and he therefore has to attempt to negate the Neutral periods against elite competition by blatantly stalling and attempting to eliminate his Neutral weakness and shorten the match WHICH IS AGAINST THE RULES OF WRESTLING REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THE NCAA IMBECILES CALL IT OR NOT.
 
I'm all in favor of our bonus point mentality, but there are times when settling for a decision is the smarter thing to do.

Nico had a good ride going, one he possibly could have maintained the entire period ... certainly long enough to lock up riding time. He got in trouble when he stepped in front to go for a turn, and presumably bonus points.

That's where the kids need to be a little more calculated and weigh the chance of getting bonus points against the risk of losing. With less than a minute left and only a 2 point lead the risk outweighed the reward IMO.

I was at the dual and got the same impression. Nico got a little too aggressive riding and put himself almost in front of Dance.. Consequently, the Hokie was able to pop out in perfect position to put the boots in.

I still felt Nico would pull it out in OT, but you have to give Dance credit for winning the ride-outs. Both of them, along with Gilman, Moisey and Youtsey should all be in the mix for a shot at knocking off Thomasello, who has to be at least a slight favorite. Should be an exciting weight class this year.
 
Both of them, along with Gilman, Moisey and Youtsey should all be in the mix for a shot at knocking off Thomasello, who has to be at least a slight favorite.

I don't see a lot of difference between Tomasello, Gilman, Dance, and Nico. They each have their strengths, as well as ways of neutralizing their opponent's strengths. At this point in the season, I would not favor any of them over the others. (I wouldn't put Moisey or Youtsey at their level, at least at this point in the season. I reserve the right to move them up to that level if they defeat 1 or more of the aforementioned 4 during the season.)

Nico has a history of learning from every match, and making things closer in rematches. His matches against McD got much closer after their 1st one. Delgado was a real problem for Nico, in that Nico would wrestle better each time they met, but Delgado would throw some funk (with blazing speed), and negate whatever advantage Nico appeared to have on his offense. I won't claim that Nico will defeat Dance if they meet again, but he's unlikely to allow himself to be caught up in as many headlocks, and he'll be more aware of Dance's legs from on top.

125 this year reminds me a lot of 174 last year -- 4 or so guys that were so close that on any given day/tournament any 1 of them could win.
 
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I'm talking in traditional wrestling tournaments such as open tournaments like Scuffle, open HS tournaments, etc... They only have 3 "medalists" - not talking about the NCAA's unique recognition system of 8 AAs. So let me put it this way since your panties are all in a bunch about it - Dance will likely imo be a second tier AA, not in the "Medal matches" of either bracket.

I think that was your opportunity to say "Oops, my bad", but you somehow managed to backtrack so quickly your hair probably looks like The Donald's. Posters on this board typically avoid the infighting we see so much on the football boards, and I'd sure like to keep it that way. Save those kind of barbs for the likes of Jammenz -- he seems to be a favorite target.
 
I don't see a lot of difference between Tomasello, Gilman, Dance, and Nico. They each have their strengths, as well as ways of neutralizing their opponent's strengths. At this point in the season, I would not favor any of them over the others. (I wouldn't put Moisey or Youtsey at their level, at least at this point in the season. I reserve the right to move them up to that level if they defeat 1 or more of the aforementioned 4 during the season.)

Nico has a history of learning from every match, and making things closer in rematches. His matches against McD got much closer after their 1st one. Delgado was a real problem for Nico, in that Nico would wrestle better each time they met, but Delgado would throw some funk (with blazing speed), and negate whatever advantage Nico appeared to have on his offense. I won't claim that Nico will defeat Dance if they meet again, but he's unlikely to allow himself to be caught up in as many headlocks, and he'll be more aware of Dance's legs from on top.

125 this year reminds me a lot of 174 last year -- 4 or so guys that were so close that on any given day/tournament any 1 of them could win.

Can't disagree with any of that and agree with you that Mega will likely make tactical and strategic "adjustments" which will likely make a difference. Delgado is another good example of a wrestler who abused fundamental wrestling rules to win matches....but at the end of the day, it is not Delgado's (or Dance's) fault for trying it, imo it is the NCAA Official's fault for not forcing them to wrestle and generate their own attacks in Neutral - one of the most fundamental rules in wrestling. Delgado was permitted time-&-again against Nico to do nothing but look to counter and use funk against Nico's continuous attacks during his Jr yr, the year he won his championship (including the final). This "tactic" of "strategy" should not have been permitted and the NCAA Officials should have forced him to attack and expose himself using their authority to force him to wrestle offensively (it simply is not legal to exclusively play defense and only look to counter in neutral).

Anyway, I think it's a real shame that the NCAA promotes the use of illegal tactics and forces a guy like Nico to always make the "adjustments" in his style to win the match taking the absurd vagaries of NCAA Officiating into account and assume the NCAA Official is going to swallow his whistle in regards to stalling especially in Neutral Position. Nico is the one wrestling in the correct manner - aggressively and looking to score and WIN the match off his own offense. Just think it's absurd that the guy who is wrestling the correct way is the guy that the NCAA is always forcing to make adjustments to his style to make it less aggressive and more conservative and vice versa, promoting the style of the guy who is breaking the spirit of some of wrestling's most fundamental rules. Nico is a light-years better and more accomplished wrestler on the International stage than any of them and a truly great wrestler "style-wise"; feel bad for wrestlers like Mega that they have deal with boneheaded, moronic NCAA Officials that promote stalling tactics like we saw from Dance on Sunday - Nico's style, the correct style, should be the one promoted by the NCAA and intentional stalling in Neutral should not be tolerated by the NCAA and BOTH wrestlers should be forced to sustain 50% of the offensive attacks.
 
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I don't see a lot of difference between Tomasello, Gilman, Dance, and Nico. They each have their strengths, as well as ways of neutralizing their opponent's strengths. At this point in the season, I would not favor any of them over the others. (I wouldn't put Moisey or Youtsey at their level, at least at this point in the season. I reserve the right to move them up to that level if they defeat 1 or more of the aforementioned 4 during the season.)

125 this year reminds me a lot of 174 last year -- 4 or so guys that were so close that on any given day/tournament any 1 of them could win.
I think we're essentially saying the same thing. IMO, the top 4 guys (with little to separate them) are Thomasello, Dance, Megaludis and Gilman. That said, If we had to rank them, it'd have to give Thomasello the nod for # 1. Not only is he the defending champ, but he only had one close match in last year's NCAAs. And that was a 4-2 win over the then-unbeaten and # 1 seed, Waters.

Also, I'd agree with you that Youtsey and Moisey aren't quite at the level of the 4 wrestlers mentioned above. However, I included them because I think they're close enough to be "in the mix." For example, Youtsey beat Dance in last year's round of 12. And Moisey knocked off the # 2 seed Garrett, as well as Klimara and Gilman on his way to the finals. So, they each have a win over one of the guys we agree are in the top 4 at 125.

Anyway, it'd be great to see Nico go out on top. He's been an extremely hard-worker and an all-around class act.
 
Well, there were some interesting points and relevant comments in there once the general audience learned to "fast forward" past the people cat-fighting like a couple little girls.
 
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