OT: At Risk of this Thread Getting Banished to the Test Board
- Thread starter Sharkies
- Start date
This is only part of it. The concept of free speech also involves fair access to public forums for the purpose of messaging. Penn State is probably a public forum to some degree. I don't know much about this Spencer guy, except that he seems like a dirt bag, but if he presents a clear danger to public safety, then obviously he shouldn't be allowed to speak. Barron's letter tries to make the point that a threat assessment was conducted, and the conclusion reached that there would be a safety concern. Maybe this is true, but the way it is said makes me suspect that Barron just doesn't like the guy's message, and so he ginned up a public safety argument as pretext for banning an unpopular speaker. Moreover, this type of underhanded censorship is exactly what I would expect from a weasily administrator like Barron.
I get EXACTLY what "free speech" as guaranteed by the Constitution really means. But surely you can see this slippery slope (or maybe you can't).
If you can't speak at any campus, or any private establishment, or any public space, or even online ... and now all of sudden you're no longer really "free to speak" now are you?
Leave the North American Marlon Brando Look Alikes out of this!
It's a shame when a threat of "outside" violence can shut down any group's free speech.
"Dammit, I'm in the wrong place." --Mister Garrison
I wasn't really talking about anyone on this board its more the mainstream public that cries Feedom of Speech thinking it means they can say anything they want, whenever they want without any repercussions.
and yea I do see the "slippery slope", hell sometimes I'm standing on it.
I agree. No matter how odious someones speech is they should be permitted to speak unless they are inciting violence. (I don't know if Spencer does that or not.)
Whether they're given a platform is a separate issue but if student groups going through ordinary channels request someone the person should be permitted to speak (unless they're inciting violence). If their speaking causes other people to be violent then the university needs to deal with those other people.
As soon as you use whether people will be violent in response to speech as your criterion you're letting those people that may be violent have control of who gets to speak and who doesn't.
Remember "I may disagree with what you say but I'll defend to the death your right to say it?" That was a staple of political discourse, especially on the Left, 30-40 years ago. We need to bring that back.
I'll add my 2 cents in just because.
1. I don't believe Barron should be including his personal views in this particular memo.
2. I think an argument could be made that there is no imminent threat of violence. I don't doubt there is a threat, I just don't think it is "imminent" at this time. You'd have to ask on the day of the speech to determine if its imminent (in my opinion). Sounds like a recipe for a lawsuit from the ACLU.
1. I don't believe Barron should be including his personal views in this particular memo.
2. I think an argument could be made that there is no imminent threat of violence. I don't doubt there is a threat, I just don't think it is "imminent" at this time. You'd have to ask on the day of the speech to determine if its imminent (in my opinion). Sounds like a recipe for a lawsuit from the ACLU.
It is ironic. The Free Speech Movement started 50 years ago in Berkeley and now Berkeley is intolerant of free speech.
Someone is going to come onto campus, speak for an hour, do Q&A for 15 minutes and then leave. Nobody is required to listen to it. People that disagree with it are permitted to express themselves. And yet some people still can't refrain from becoming violent over it. Amazing.
1. Barron is the President of the university, perhaps the views expressed not only represent his views but the views of the majority of the university body?
2. You don't wait until you think a threat is imminent on a college campus to act--you prevent the threat from even becoming a possibility. As a parent with a student on that campus, if something went down I'd be furious and the one suing the school for not protecting my child to the best of their ability. I know stuff happens, but when you invite it, you become responsible.
I'm all for the ACLU but since when do they determine who can/can't be invited to a university campus? Particularly with the possibility of inviting unrest at that campus? crazy talk.
Because Penn State isn't an inclusive climate for all. It's not inclusive for those who oppose inclusiveness. (that was meant to be semi-TIC)
From what I know of the guy, Spencer's a total tool, but why does there have to be violence if he speaks? My view is this: If he wants to speak, let him so that he can demonstrate what a wretched hateful ass he is. And if people want to peacefully protest at the event, let them. If the protesters turn violent, that's on them, not whoever is speaking.
Seriously, for all of those who are wringing your hands and saying "oh, well, he should be allowed to speak if he isn't violent," please do even a small amount of research on Richard Spencer and the platform that he would be advocating for. It inherently incites violence. There is nothing "nonviolent" about the speech that he wants to bring to Penn State.
Spencer advocates for an "ethnic cleansing" in which all non-white people would be removed from the United States in favor of what he calls a "white ethno-state". He operates a website that has questioned whether or not a genocide against black Americans would be a good thing. He argues that if white Americans do not forcefully expel all non-whites from this country, all white people will die.
Saying "oh, I don't know anything about this guy" isn't an excuse for criticizing the university's decision when you have the Internet. He makes it very clear exactly what he stands for and the policies for which he advocates. Simply put, it's for the death of all non-white people in the United States.
Spencer advocates for an "ethnic cleansing" in which all non-white people would be removed from the United States in favor of what he calls a "white ethno-state". He operates a website that has questioned whether or not a genocide against black Americans would be a good thing. He argues that if white Americans do not forcefully expel all non-whites from this country, all white people will die.
Saying "oh, I don't know anything about this guy" isn't an excuse for criticizing the university's decision when you have the Internet. He makes it very clear exactly what he stands for and the policies for which he advocates. Simply put, it's for the death of all non-white people in the United States.
A federal judge says that you're full of it: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...peech-violence-erupts/?utm_term=.332c155d7b11. In fact, he rejected every argument that you just made.
Certainly, Barron is aware of this, and is banking on the Charlottesville violence to change the outcome for PSU, which will raise the issue of whether we are dealing with a heckler's veto (people opposed to speaker incite violence with the aim of silencing the speaker).
If he directly advocates actually violence then don't let him speak but if it's just that his ideas are "violent" then suddenly the government is in the business of deciding which ideas are violent and which aren't. And once the government is the one that decides then they have the authority...they get to decide. And if the potential end goal isn't clear yet then I'll spell it out...once the government gets to decide they can decide things that you don't like and you can't say anything about it because you've given them the power to decide and they can decide that what YOU say is violence.
No thanks on that. I'll take my chances on letting anyone speak (short of directly advocating violence) and trusting the judgement of the people over letting a government decide who gets to speak.
That's what the judge said in the link @Pardlion just posted...
"On Tuesday, U.S. District Judge W. Keith Watkins in Montgomery, Ala., Tuesday barred Auburn from blocking Spencer, stating there was no evidence that he advocates violence.
“Discrimination on the basis of message content cannot be tolerated under the First Amendment,” he wrote in the ruling."
Basically, as long as you don't incite violence, there is a Constitutional right to permit speech there, if it is a public forum -- whose definition is obviously open to interpretation as well.
Hey, just because the dude speaks like a Nazi *sshole doesn't make him primarily responsible for the violence. People who want to get violent are the ones responsible. Don't they have any culpability for picking up the rocks and throwing them? Vincent Bugliosi had a very difficult case in convicting Charles Manson primarily because Manson didn't physically perpetrate the murders. He wasn't even there. A lesser prosecuting attorney would not have put Manson behind bars because of that fact. Point being, speech, even vile speech, never hurt a fly. It's the ones who put the words into practice who are causing the harm.
Mere advocacy is not enough reason to prohibit the first amendment
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_v._Ohio
Spencer's jaw was certainly weakened by the strong negative response he's received in the past, per the video posted by TenerHallTerror.
I'm sure in terms of PR he loved that. Those guys live for that. It makes them sympathetic figures. Most people aren't going to look into the details of what they're saying and instead just see that they're getting punched.
It reminds me of when we-went-to-the-Moon-denialist Bart Sibrel goaded Buzz Aldrin into punching him. The first thing he said afterwards, to his cameraman, was "Did you get that?"
Let him sue, then. If he wins and has the gumption to actually show up on campus, it would be my hope that Penn State students whose deaths Spencer would be calling for are able to defend themselves accordingly.
A
anon_xdc8rmuek44eq
Guest
Jim Rome is a fan of that tactic. The downside is you look like a puss.
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
No, I support threatened students' right to self-defense to the extent permitted by law. Don't you?
But here's just another part of that slippery slope.
What if his words and speech cause violence?
+100. Its kind of similar to the story I saw yesterday on Yahoo about the 2 white girls who went to visit Howard University with MAGA hats on.
They knew exactly what they were doing and what the response was going to be.
They wanted and they got their "Kardashian" moment. lets just hope it doesn't linger like a festering boil...otherwise known as "The Kardashians".
Jim Rome is a fan of that tactic. The downside is you look like a puss.
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
Rome was a complete turd there but he won in the big picture by goading Everett into responding. Rome is still a star today and nobody even knows who Jim Everett is except for those old enough to remember this clip. I wonder if Rome disavows his behavior in this interview today or if he ever talks about it.
How can they? Someone would already have to be predisposed to committing violence. Yes, there are nuts out there that will believe this guys shite, but you can't put everyone in a cocoon of "correct" speech to avoid potential violence. The cure would be worse than the disease and I think that's the point many here are missing.
Cut the BS. Your cute little comment clearly supports violence against the speaker who (according to you) would be "calling for" the "deaths" of PSU students. Do I hope that PSU students would counter Spencer's words with violence? No, I don't, because they would go to jail.
That's it...the cure is worse than the disease. Letting bad people say awful things isn't good but having someone or something get to decide who gets to say what is even worse. Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government except for everything else." A corollary to that is "Free speech for everyone (except for direct calls for violence) is the worst way for societies to discuss matters except for everything else."
