Ot for you history/ Civil War Buffs - Devils Den in the distance
- Thread starter sluggo72
- Start date
Yesterday
I thought it looked cool
Looks downright cold!
That's atop Little Round Top overlooking Devil's Den, I think.
General Warren, steadfast as always.
Yesterday
I thought it looked cool
Very cool.
Here is the same spot in July, 1888, 25 years after the battle and one month before the Warren statue was dedicated.
And here is a photo with the statue in place, perhaps taken at the dedication.
that rock? Earlier in the day, our pledge master left his diet coke on that rock. About midnight, he decided he wanted to finish his drink, and sent all the pledges out to get back for him!!Very cool.
Here is the same spot in July, 1888, 25 years after the battle and one month before the Warren statue was dedicated.
And here is a photo with the statue in place, perhaps taken at the dedication.
During the Civil War the southerners refused to come north and fight when the weather got colder. That photo shows why. The same fear still exists today in the SEC.
Devils Den probably wasn't as hot, yesterday, as it was back then.
Lived about two miles from Devils Den for about 45 years before moving to NC. Gettysburg is a great place to live and to visit, especially in the spring or fall. Well worth the trip if you or your family likes history. To learn the story behind the battles is enlightening. The south had one of the best generals in history, yet made mistake after mistake to lead to the south eventually losing the civil war.
I've read an interesting account of Gettysburg that suggested had Stonewall Jackson been alive for Lee, he would have tempered his boldness with strategy. Like you say, mistakes here and there make for historical outcomes.
Let’s not ignore the structural shortcomings that doomed the South from the get-go. The North had the population and manufacturing advantage in a significant way. They didn’t have the benefit of knowing this on 1861, but we’ve seen time and again that access to resources and manufacturing wins wars. No amount of great generals can make up for that over the long haul.
yeah....I suspect that Lee was desperate. He knew, in the event his invasion of the north was unsuccessful, the war was over. And of course, it was. The South simply could not sustain a prolonged war. And, as we saw in Vietnam, you are not going to win a war simply defending your territory. So, day 1 went well. Day 2, nor so much. Day 3 and Pickett's charge, was simply his last gasp. Lee and his generals were superior in just about every way but did not have the resources and backing to win that war without making the northern politicians beg for settlement. Fortunately, the brave men and women repelled them at Gettysburg and the rest is history.
Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.
But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.
The battle was won on the first day. Just enuff Union troops were there to slow the Confederate advance thru the town. This gave the Union a chance to occupy the high ground. An advantage that the Union had over the Confederates (see results when the south attached the center of the Union lines).
The North also had Grant and Sherman. Once they came east, it was all over for the rebels.
Hmmm...IDK. South made good advancements at Little Round Top and darn near broke the Union like during Pickett's Charge. I'd have to refamiliarize myself with little roundtop but IIRC, a low level officer realized that they could not defend their positions and got additional resources just as the Confederates attacked. If not for that, the position would have been overrun and would have offered Lee a flanking manuever he lacked but was so famous for in so many other battles.
Correct me if I'm wrong, didn't the Confederates have the high ground(Little Round Top?) on the first day, but were ordered to a different position by their superiors for some other reason? Thus allowing the Union troops to take the position?
There was no way Armistead’s breach could have been sustained.
I tend to agree...but the union army was not well led or managed. This was before Grant and the Union Army generals were far inferior to those from the south. There could have been a route at any time. But my point is that there were several events that could have turned the tide of that battle. Had the South's Calvary not disappeared (perhaps, Lee's greatest weapon at the time) it could have turned the tide. My point was, this was a close battle and the Union was very, very fortunate.
I'm not a historian but I do know the Confederacy was nothing but a bunch of traitors. Their fate was to lose. Eff them. Lee was a traitor and not some sort of demigod. Pickett's Charge wasn't a heroic attempt at victory. Lee ordered an attack which some of his subordinates felt would never succeed. The Great General Lee still ordered it to go ahead and got his men slaughtered. Great General?? No. Egomaniac who bought into his infallibility? Yes.
IIRC, from the Gettysburg tour I took, the Confederates raced the Union troops to the high ground, and came in 2nd place.
perhaps you are right but I'd review Lee in his totality. He was a great General, in terms of tactics and leadership. His flanking maneuvers, use of the Calvary and Artillery are legendary. As I stated above, I believe Lee was desperate. He knew if he was turned away in invading the north, the war was lost. Without having his Calvary, he was blind and lost. But he knew he had no choice so he had Pickett charge. He tested the middle of the Union's army that had collapsed so many times before. But this time, they did not.
Yes, they darn near broke the line (but did not). But that is why slowing the Confederates the first day was so important. The Union had time to get reinforcements to the battle ground.
During Pickett's charge, the Union soldiers chanted Fredericksburg Fredericksburg. They knew full well what a charge across open ground was like.
I don't think that's true- Buford, Hancock, and Reynolds are three of the most respected generals of the era- were then, and are today. Had Lee listened to Longstreet, he would never have ordered Pickett's charge- which was suicidal and stupid. The Civil War is the exception to the old saw that the victors write the history- southerners actually wrote a disproportionate amount to the history after the war. As a result many people over rate and under rate the wrong leaders.
...and that is why "pickett's charge" is so weird. Lee had done everything right, to that point. The south was winning every meaningful battle and making the north, who expected to win in months, look foolish. there is a reason why Lee chose that time to do Pickett's charge. I believe he knew that Gettysburg was THE BATTLE that meant winning or losing the war.
...and those generals you mentioned, they'd lost every meaningful battle to inferior forces. Bull Run, Shilo, Second Bull Run, Antietam, Chancellorsville...after Gettysburg Chikamauga, Cold Harbor, Wilderness Campaign...they simply ran out of gas. Sherman's march to the sea, and other issues, caused people to desert to tend to their families and farms.
People forget that the US, at that time, was a gaggle of states loosely put together to form the USA. The Federal govt was not supremely powerful over the states, as they are today. From Marbury v Madison to Ableman v Booth the feds took over the states to the point where state govts, today, are close to meaningless. actually, not sure why we even have states today.
Are you aware that Grant's ratio of casualties suffered to casualties inflicted on the enemy was superior to Lee's? And this in spite of the fact the Grant was on offense and Lee on defense?
Lee lost at Gettysburg because he acted stupidly, yet southern writers still made him out to be a genius and a hero- and Grant to have been a butcher and the poorer general- when the opposite was closer to the truth.
Right. A victory at Gettysburg would have prolonged the war, but what would the South forces have done after? They would still need supplies, a populace and war materials to continue the campaign. By that point, Northern leaders knew all of this and knew that time was on their side.
West of Little Round Top, at a seldom visited part of the battlefield, and in an obscure clump of trees, another statue was recently found. The identity of the subject remains a mystery but it appears he is leading some type of charge.
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I have a funny story about the statue. An old client of ours visited little round top early one morning when it was very foggy. His wife stayed in the car while he went out to take a look. He came back to the car all pissed off. His wife asked what was the matter and he said that he asked this guy standing on the rock questions about the battle, etc. And the sob didn't say a word. They waited till the fog cleared and went out again and then realized he was talking to a statue....a lot funnier when he told it....
As did Longstreet. At Fredericksburg, “General, if you put every man on the other side of the Potomac on that field to approach me over that same line, and give me plenty of ammunition, I will kill them all before they reach my line.”
One of the top generals America has ever produced! Know your history
Lee never changed his management style after he lost Jackson. Big mistake.
He didn’t put the same faith in Longstreet to move around the right and flank the union.
Rebels were on top of big round top and little round top was only a small part for the rebel’s in their echelon move to take the center. It didn’t mean anything. They almost broke through in fact they were on cemetery ridge but two generals didn’t move their divisions forward to exploit the breach.
He didn’t put the same faith in Longstreet to move around the right and flank the union.
Rebels were on top of big round top and little round top was only a small part for the rebel’s in their echelon move to take the center. It didn’t mean anything. They almost broke through in fact they were on cemetery ridge but two generals didn’t move their divisions forward to exploit the breach.
It's impossible to walk the battlefield at Gettysburg and not be moved by the experience
My mistake. I was under the impression top generals don't lose wars.
Reynolds. Vincent. Armistead. Semmes. Pettigrew. Garnett. Pender. Zoom. Weed. Farnsworth.
51,000 killed or wounded.
Hallowed ground, indeed.
Congress was pushing Lincoln to negotiate a settlement. If the Carnage extended into their back yard Lincoln may have had to allow slavery to save the nation
So Rommel, Napoleon etc all sucked?
Lee prolonged the war about 4 years. Put it another way if lee accepted to be general of the army for the union,which he declined, the war would have been over in less than a year. Most likely 4-6 months.
The unions biggest mistake was not getting less as commander from the beginning
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I would not take that lesson from Vietnam - unless you are talking about the USA not invading North Vietnam across the DMZ. In the USA phase of the Vietnam war, the USA was nearly always the aggressor (Westmoreland’s “ search & destroy” strategy) - on the ground in South Veitnam and in the air over the whole of Vietnam. The Communists were able to survive by using guerrilla tactics and “ living to fight another day.” There was actually a great fear that the South would do the same in the US Civil War. Probably the only thing that prevented it was the generous terms offered by Lincoln and Grant and Lee’s encouragement to give upon the fight and go back to being productive citizens.
That is what I meant. In the end you defeat the enemies will to fight. The us had to invade the North but was concerned the Chinese and Soviets would fight back. The nva defeated our will
